I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there?
I want some kind of dignity. Management that keeps a promise, a salary that arrives on time, a roster that doesn't cause chronic fatigue and a sense om team work. Perhaps a flight deck where the discussion from briefing to shut down is not about worry over getting fired or rumours that the next salary will be cut in half.
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Everyone I've known, including myself, who have jumped ship, gone part-time, or lost their medical and been forced to leave, have all been amazed at what an increase in quality of life they've achieved. They founds other means and realised that, even if the income was less, the better life style with family & friends & better health was worth more than whatever they lost in income. Sitting in an aluminium tube for 10 hours per day and ending up back where you started is hardly fun flying. Getting out of bed at 04.00 for 4 days, at home or some motel, is hardly fun flying. The days of lying on a beach for 4 days every week are over. Life is not a dry run rehearsal; go for it and enjoy it as best you can. Share some touring trips and aeros. Fly for fun, live for fun. They are not always the same thing.
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Do you often ponder the potential safety implications of today's reality? How fatigue, internal and external stressors etc. can affect the margins?
Parts of the general public don't seem to appreciate it much when some pilots and others express their worries. They seem to assume that current regulations are adequate, and thus there is nothing to worry about. The fact that humans form an essential and vulnerable part of a larger and imperfect system seems to go right over their heads.
Parts of the general public don't seem to appreciate it much when some pilots and others express their worries. They seem to assume that current regulations are adequate, and thus there is nothing to worry about. The fact that humans form an essential and vulnerable part of a larger and imperfect system seems to go right over their heads.
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I have a friend who is a heart & lung surgeon; his wife is a gynaecological surgeon. Their stories about their rosters scares the living, or not, daylights out of me. They do not have an autopilot/autoland; they do not have check lists; they do not have a roster that allows protected sleep before major ops. They do a duty day and then 12 hours SBY: with a young family. An op can take 5-10 hrs and call out can be in the middle of the night, or just as you go to bed. It's frightening; and their dept's are as cash strapped as airines claim to be. Difference is the hospitals are not share-holder driven, but they are performance factor driven: comes to the same thing. The heart dept can only afford operations 4 days per week, because of funds. It is the greatest cause of death in some age groups. Not enough dosh, so die.
We are not alone. But money continues yet to wash its way around the financial system and markets. Bonuses are being paid to
. Please! Priorities. Sometimes it makes me humble.
We are not alone. But money continues yet to wash its way around the financial system and markets. Bonuses are being paid to
. Please! Priorities. Sometimes it makes me humble.
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I must say I laugh at all the guys saying how knackered they are, I used to work 16 hour shifts on my feet back to back on less than 'minimum rest!!!' .....
Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on pay.
Go corporate if your sick of airlines, my friend (in his 40's for those who will inevitably lable me a young whippersnapper with no sense) flies for TAG and he absolutely loves it, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off on 80K as an FO
Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on
pay.Go corporate if your sick of airlines, my friend (in his 40's for those who will inevitably lable me a young whippersnapper with no sense) flies for TAG and he absolutely loves it, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off on 80K as an FO
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Fuellers
I just wanted to comment on the poster who said he has to laugh at pilots saying how knackered they are - well it depends massively on what kind airline you fly for and what your sector lengths are. I fly for a regional - duty days are 8-11 hours, 4-6 flights a day (usually 4), roster pattern is 5 days on, 2 days off and I get up at 4.15am as many as 4 days in a row. As a right seat FO in my company with 7 years experience I learned recently that I earn LESS than the fuellers at Manchester - that's right the guy fuelling the plane makes more money than the guy flying it!! Mid to high £30's is what we earn and just bear in mind that a year 1 qualified train driver starts on £44k and I can assure you is far better protected in terms of rest breaks and days worked - they certainly aren't working 5 on 2 off I can assure you, and nor are the dispatchers, the fire crews, our own crewing dept, the engineers or anybody else. Try supporting a wife and kids on £35k in the South of England!!
You might have joined BA or Easyjet, you might be on £110k a year as an Easyjet Capt after 8 years with your 5/3 5/4 roster pattern but some of us are trapped on turboprops in the regionals or in Monarch in the right seat (which also pays £35k) where there has been restructuring and are working a heck of a lot harder for a lot less money.
Oh if somebody can send me a contact at TAG that sounds amazing!!
You might have joined BA or Easyjet, you might be on £110k a year as an Easyjet Capt after 8 years with your 5/3 5/4 roster pattern but some of us are trapped on turboprops in the regionals or in Monarch in the right seat (which also pays £35k) where there has been restructuring and are working a heck of a lot harder for a lot less money.
Oh if somebody can send me a contact at TAG that sounds amazing!!
For anyone considering part-time working with their existing company, may I offer a word of caution. I went 75% with my airline last year - thirty days on roster, ten days off, having previously been flying 800 hrs plus with a mix of short/medium/longhaul. So far, I find myself flying at a rate which will produce 700 hrs this year and I am sure you can do the sums as well as I. Balpa believes the reduction of flying hours should be proportionate, the Company believes it has the right to roster up to FTL limits and of course they are about to change in the wrong direction. The roster machine now produces a schedule of long duty days/nights to maximise my productivity, no short days other than the odd ski flight. Net result, by the middle of my on-roster period, the old problem of tiredness raises its ugly head again and I find myself counting the days down until my next off-roster block.
My life-style has improved but not to the extent I had hoped for when I signed up for the deal.
Best regards from the world of the one-eyed teddy bear............
My life-style has improved but not to the extent I had hoped for when I signed up for the deal.
Best regards from the world of the one-eyed teddy bear............
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Yes...welcome to the new world order...try 900 HR rosters..min rest down route, min rest back home...then layer on being marginalised, a work to rule roster, a hatred of the coal face from management, bad air and ever reducing so called, benefits....
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The grass on the other side of the fence is greener mostly because most of the contributors to this thread are painting it that way.
Thirty years ago I was in a big engineering company and like all UK industry it treated any one who got their hands dirty like S**t.
Going flying was much better in terms of the way I was regarded and the pay was not bad ...... Better than engineering !
There is no doubt that you can make better money than flying but the stresses are different, commuting on the tube, hours stuck in traffic, having your prices undercut by cheap immigrant labour, the VAT man Etc Etc..................
When I come home none of this stuff is nagging at the back of my mind.......I just shut the hangar doors.
Pull the Handel and you could get what you want but my guess is that you are just going to exchange one type of stress for another.
Thirty years ago I was in a big engineering company and like all UK industry it treated any one who got their hands dirty like S**t.
Going flying was much better in terms of the way I was regarded and the pay was not bad ...... Better than engineering !
There is no doubt that you can make better money than flying but the stresses are different, commuting on the tube, hours stuck in traffic, having your prices undercut by cheap immigrant labour, the VAT man Etc Etc..................
When I come home none of this stuff is nagging at the back of my mind.......I just shut the hangar doors.
Pull the Handel and you could get what you want but my guess is that you are just going to exchange one type of stress for another.
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We have quite a few pilots on 75 and 50% contracts. The common comment for all I have spoken to is 'wish I had done it years ago'.
The other common thread in these conversations is that mostly they are in their late 50's or early 60's. Twenty years ago all these people would have been retired, but for various reasons have to or want to carry on and the mind maybe willing, but the flesh struggles to cope. It's well documented that shift work and night work reduce your life span.
The other common thread in these conversations is that mostly they are in their late 50's or early 60's. Twenty years ago all these people would have been retired, but for various reasons have to or want to carry on and the mind maybe willing, but the flesh struggles to cope. It's well documented that shift work and night work reduce your life span.
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Originally Posted by cgwhitemonk11
I must say I laugh at all the guys saying how knackered they are, I used to work 16 hour shifts on my feet back to back on less than 'minimum rest!!!' .....
Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on pay.
Never had an easier job than flying for an airline, you all need a reality check.
Granted any job you have been doing for 20+ years will be tiring and there is no doubt it seems to be harder on the older guys, which I understand. But go out into the real world and see the dwindling T&C's across the board, and the next time you complain about doing 6 sectors think of the dispatchers and fuelers pulling 10-14 hour shifts on
pay.It was an experience, to say the least. But I fail to see any rationale to use that experience to somehow justify deteriorating terms and conditions in commercial aviation, especially in light of the safety aspect. I don't expect golden salaries/pension/insurance compared to other industries in the same country, but I do expect professional treatment and a sound respect for margins.
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Many years ago fuellers were employed by the oil co's and t&c's were great, but now all fuellers are employed by contracting companies and slowly but surely the t&c's are being eroded.
Just a couple of weeks ago I saw an advert for fuelling staff for one of the contractor companies at MAN, it was £15 per hour zero hours contract.
It seems we're all in a race to the bottom with t&c's
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I think you'll find some of the old contract pursers at BA earn more than new contact Fo's!
and I personally knew a BA baggage handler at BA 15 years ago who was on nearly twice my wage as a new Tp FO!
By and large these are exceptions to the rule, but you have to laugh sometimes!
and I personally knew a BA baggage handler at BA 15 years ago who was on nearly twice my wage as a new Tp FO!
By and large these are exceptions to the rule, but you have to laugh sometimes!
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Try something exotic. Nothing to lose if you want to quit anyway. Asia or Africa etc., anything outside your comfort zone.
I left Europe about 10 years ago. While I have my days, most certainly would not become a pilot again in the first place, in general no regrets about the move.
I left Europe about 10 years ago. While I have my days, most certainly would not become a pilot again in the first place, in general no regrets about the move.
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A question to the young 16hr day/min rest hero.
Maybe this particular form of Stockholm Syndrome is a side-effect of this much talked about Aerotoxic Syndrome?
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What to do?
As a A380 captain for one of the three Middle East Bigs, I must say that life is definitely very good.
It's a long way to the top, but once there, it's time to enjoy the good life...
Don't give up guys. There definitely are good gigs out there!
It's a long way to the top, but once there, it's time to enjoy the good life...
Don't give up guys. There definitely are good gigs out there!
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I too have had it with this industry and am actively looking at ways to leave, as said a long history with aviation makes starting a new career daunting especially with a family.
I recently posted this on another forum regarding declining conditions, mainstream jobs don't suffer the same continual degradation simply because people pack up and leave, something that rarely happens for aircrew, so while all jobs may be under attack seniority brings a whole other level of abuse.
1. Unfortunately seniority means it's simply too great a pay cut to leave and start at the bottom of a new airline.
2. Secondly the continuing spiral, forces crew to stay longer to recoup the loss in expected earnings.
I'm afraid the root cause to airlines all over the world attacking conditions and getting away with it is seniority, while it does have benefits when adhered to and obviously without it would mean new problems.
Without it you may end up retiring at 55 as a lifetime F/O because you followed the money and jumped ship anytime more cash was available.
(What never be a Captain you must be joking, oh that shiny jet and all that ego I'd rather get a pay cut!)
New joiners today will probably be Captains for 20+yrs but will have to fly to 67+ with the lack of inflationary pay rises.
I know it's a ugly concept to get around but every other profession on the planet functions without seniority perfectly well, and as said would generate new problems but at least if you didn't like it you could leave and that is something airlines wouldn't like, unfortunately for them we are expensive investments worth keeping and the only reason to stay would be for lifestyle and pay, two of the things that CX is continuing to decimate.
Look at all the F/Os sacrificing command for lifestyle, the pay simply isn't worth it, they would have left if they could but they can't, and the company damn well knows it!
And before anyone quotes me saying
means pay would go down with a lack of a seniority system is not looking at rest of the world yes, some people get promoted who shouldn't but it's not the majority, the most qualified get promoted and/or move with free will, and as a result improve their pay and conditions.
If you can bang out, good luck just come back to let us know that it's possible.
I recently posted this on another forum regarding declining conditions, mainstream jobs don't suffer the same continual degradation simply because people pack up and leave, something that rarely happens for aircrew, so while all jobs may be under attack seniority brings a whole other level of abuse.
it distills down to what sort of career do you want - fulfilling or declining in a spiral to the first accident?
2. Secondly the continuing spiral, forces crew to stay longer to recoup the loss in expected earnings.
I'm afraid the root cause to airlines all over the world attacking conditions and getting away with it is seniority, while it does have benefits when adhered to and obviously without it would mean new problems.
Without it you may end up retiring at 55 as a lifetime F/O because you followed the money and jumped ship anytime more cash was available.
(What never be a Captain you must be joking, oh that shiny jet and all that ego I'd rather get a pay cut!)
New joiners today will probably be Captains for 20+yrs but will have to fly to 67+ with the lack of inflationary pay rises.
I know it's a ugly concept to get around but every other profession on the planet functions without seniority perfectly well, and as said would generate new problems but at least if you didn't like it you could leave and that is something airlines wouldn't like, unfortunately for them we are expensive investments worth keeping and the only reason to stay would be for lifestyle and pay, two of the things that CX is continuing to decimate.
Look at all the F/Os sacrificing command for lifestyle, the pay simply isn't worth it, they would have left if they could but they can't, and the company damn well knows it!
And before anyone quotes me saying
oh that shiny jet and all that ego I'd rather get a pay cut!