Ryanair in Copenhagen ... or not
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Just to add a bit of Danish levity:
I arrived in BLL one night and the loaders refused to work until I shut the APU down (I wanted to stay warm during a 20 minute turnaround).
"Why" said I?
"It makes too much noise and it says so in our rules"
So, I shut the APU down and switched on the Brake Fans (which made more noise than the APU).
That blew the whole union plan apart because there was nothing in their bits and pieces that mentioned Brake Fans and I pointed out that this was a matter of flight safety.
I think I won the moral high ground that night.
I arrived in BLL one night and the loaders refused to work until I shut the APU down (I wanted to stay warm during a 20 minute turnaround).
"Why" said I?
"It makes too much noise and it says so in our rules"
So, I shut the APU down and switched on the Brake Fans (which made more noise than the APU).
That blew the whole union plan apart because there was nothing in their bits and pieces that mentioned Brake Fans and I pointed out that this was a matter of flight safety.
I think I won the moral high ground that night.
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The losers here are both the airlines that have to pay more than they should for ground services and passengers, again having to pay more. No wonder there have been many airline failures with a principle base at Copenhagen!
I am all for Trade Unionism, but the world has changed and the successful unions move with the times.
I am all for Trade Unionism, but the world has changed and the successful unions move with the times.
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Yeah, boo hoo, the tickets may end up costing £30 instead of £20. Oh, the humanity!
Transparency International
"Flight Personnel Union" (FPU) serves strike notice
English text - "Flight Personnel Union" (FPU) serves strike notice - 29 JAN:
FPU and Serviceforbundet issues Ryanair with a strike notice
Danish text - Union takes right to negotiate on base to Labour Court - 03 FEB:
LO - Konfliktvarsel mod Ryanair
Translation by Google (+ a little help)
LO is the Danish Central Labor Organization
FPU is sub-org of Serviceforbundet
FPU and Serviceforbundet issues Ryanair with a strike notice
Danish text - Union takes right to negotiate on base to Labour Court - 03 FEB:
LO - Konfliktvarsel mod Ryanair
Translation by Google (+ a little help)
LO is the Danish Central Labor Organization
FPU is sub-org of Serviceforbundet
Notice of conflict to Ryanair
LO has today submitted a written complaint to the Labour Court to pre-approve any future conflict against the Irish discount airline Ryanair. The case is initiated while Serviceforbundet has announced conflict against Ryanair.
- Ryanair claims that they are not covered by Danish legislation. The LO disagree because they have bases in Denmark. Ryanair has also said that they will meet any conflict with legal action. Therefore, we now ask the Labour Court in advance to validate the conflict warning of Serviceforbundet as legal, says LO's lawyer on the case, Peter Nisbeth.
With declaratory relief is the LO's desire to resolve the matter as quickly as possible and preferably before 26 March 2015 when Ryanair starts a base in Copenhagen.
Serviceforbundet serves strike notice.
The letter from the LO to the Labour Court is handed while Serviceforbundet warns of conflict against Ryanair because Ryanair firmly refused to enter into negotiations for an agreement with Serviceforbundet, via Flight Personnel Union (FPU) who organizes pilots and cabin crew.
Ryanair has announced that the airline will start flights from Copenhagen Airport, March 26.
- The very best would be to meet with Ryanair in order to enter into an agreement. Ryanair unfortunately categorically rejected this and therefore Serviceforbundet - fully in line with the Danish labor market model - serve notice of conflict, says Thilde Waast, chairman of the FPU.
If Ryanair continues to refuse to enter into negotiations for a collective agreement, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of an LO Federation do not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. It may mean that Ryanair cannot get luggage handling or refuel. The extent of sympathy will be coordinated between the federations.
Bear with me - tough one to translate
LO has today submitted a written complaint to the Labour Court to pre-approve any future conflict against the Irish discount airline Ryanair. The case is initiated while Serviceforbundet has announced conflict against Ryanair.
- Ryanair claims that they are not covered by Danish legislation. The LO disagree because they have bases in Denmark. Ryanair has also said that they will meet any conflict with legal action. Therefore, we now ask the Labour Court in advance to validate the conflict warning of Serviceforbundet as legal, says LO's lawyer on the case, Peter Nisbeth.
With declaratory relief is the LO's desire to resolve the matter as quickly as possible and preferably before 26 March 2015 when Ryanair starts a base in Copenhagen.
Serviceforbundet serves strike notice.
The letter from the LO to the Labour Court is handed while Serviceforbundet warns of conflict against Ryanair because Ryanair firmly refused to enter into negotiations for an agreement with Serviceforbundet, via Flight Personnel Union (FPU) who organizes pilots and cabin crew.
Ryanair has announced that the airline will start flights from Copenhagen Airport, March 26.
- The very best would be to meet with Ryanair in order to enter into an agreement. Ryanair unfortunately categorically rejected this and therefore Serviceforbundet - fully in line with the Danish labor market model - serve notice of conflict, says Thilde Waast, chairman of the FPU.
If Ryanair continues to refuse to enter into negotiations for a collective agreement, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of an LO Federation do not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. It may mean that Ryanair cannot get luggage handling or refuel. The extent of sympathy will be coordinated between the federations.
Fact Sheet on Ryanair - The Danish Model in practice
Ryanair has announced that they establish a base in Kastrup Airport starting on 26. March 2015.
Flight Personnel Union, which is part of the Serviceforbundet has agreements with other airlines based in Denmark. Serviceforbundet also wants an agreement with Ryanair. An agreement to ensure proper conditions for pilots and flight attendants on Ryanair bases in Denmark.
Under EU rules on airtraffic, every crew member shall be assigned a home base. Here it starts and ends duty. The laws of the country where the home base is located are applicable to crew members. It is established, inter alia, by a Norwegian judgment on Ryanair (Norway follows the EU rules) and a Danish judgment on Sterling's bankruptcy. If you base in Copenhagen, it is therefore Danish law applicable.
Tax is paid to Denmark. And Serviceforbundet has also signed agreements for other companies based in Denmark
Ryanair has flatly rejected the union's desire for a collective agreement
Serviceforbundet has announced a major conflict against Ryanair, from the company base starts up on March 26. The purpose of the Danish rules on conflict of notice is to establish a contractual arrangement and preferably before a conflict is started. Technically a main conflict is comprised of the strike and a blockade (which is not a physical barrier). This means that the members of Serviceforbundet may not accept employment in Ryanair, and those who are already employed go on strike. The blockade does not require any notice when Ryanair has refused to negotiate. The strike, in turn, requires notice equivalent to the members notice.
If that's not enough to get the employer to the negotiating table, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of a federation LO may not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. The extent of a sympathy conflict will be coordinated between the federations.
Notice of sympathy strikes are served to the employer-associations, which have member companies that may have business with the employer. In Ryanair's case, it might be the act of luggage handling, check-in, or fuel. 2 notices of sympathy conflicts are served with 7 days apart - then the sympathy conflict to take effect. Finally, a sympathy conflict means that employees who are LO-members in Ryanair can be called out in sympathy strike
Ryanair at a press conference stated that they will meet any blockade and conflict with legal action. Therefore, LO brought before the Industrial Court the claim that Ryanair must recognize that the notice of conflict is legal. The Labour Court in Denmark has the opportunity to handle cases of conflict legality urgently. The LO wish that the matter will be settled before March, 26, 2015, where the Ryanair base in Kastrup starts up.
Ryanair has announced that they establish a base in Kastrup Airport starting on 26. March 2015.
Flight Personnel Union, which is part of the Serviceforbundet has agreements with other airlines based in Denmark. Serviceforbundet also wants an agreement with Ryanair. An agreement to ensure proper conditions for pilots and flight attendants on Ryanair bases in Denmark.
Under EU rules on airtraffic, every crew member shall be assigned a home base. Here it starts and ends duty. The laws of the country where the home base is located are applicable to crew members. It is established, inter alia, by a Norwegian judgment on Ryanair (Norway follows the EU rules) and a Danish judgment on Sterling's bankruptcy. If you base in Copenhagen, it is therefore Danish law applicable.
Tax is paid to Denmark. And Serviceforbundet has also signed agreements for other companies based in Denmark
Ryanair has flatly rejected the union's desire for a collective agreement
Serviceforbundet has announced a major conflict against Ryanair, from the company base starts up on March 26. The purpose of the Danish rules on conflict of notice is to establish a contractual arrangement and preferably before a conflict is started. Technically a main conflict is comprised of the strike and a blockade (which is not a physical barrier). This means that the members of Serviceforbundet may not accept employment in Ryanair, and those who are already employed go on strike. The blockade does not require any notice when Ryanair has refused to negotiate. The strike, in turn, requires notice equivalent to the members notice.
If that's not enough to get the employer to the negotiating table, the main conflict may later be backed by a sympathy conflict from members of the LO unions. This means that members of a federation LO may not perform tasks arising from or destined for the conflict-affected employer. The extent of a sympathy conflict will be coordinated between the federations.
Notice of sympathy strikes are served to the employer-associations, which have member companies that may have business with the employer. In Ryanair's case, it might be the act of luggage handling, check-in, or fuel. 2 notices of sympathy conflicts are served with 7 days apart - then the sympathy conflict to take effect. Finally, a sympathy conflict means that employees who are LO-members in Ryanair can be called out in sympathy strike
Ryanair at a press conference stated that they will meet any blockade and conflict with legal action. Therefore, LO brought before the Industrial Court the claim that Ryanair must recognize that the notice of conflict is legal. The Labour Court in Denmark has the opportunity to handle cases of conflict legality urgently. The LO wish that the matter will be settled before March, 26, 2015, where the Ryanair base in Kastrup starts up.
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APU Noise & CPH
CPH was the first airport i ever flew to that had strict ground noise rules and what a difference it made doing the walk around you could hear birds signing.
There is simply no justification for running an APU on turn around provided stable ground power (mains ideally) is available, if your down in Spain and it super warm then conditioned ground air should be available falling that, yes run the APU for passenger/crew convenience if your airline permits, some don't !! i gather?
Ditto if it super cold, ground handlers have to work directly under the APU's and yes they have ear defenders, but they can be a safety risk in cutting off a very important sense i.e. hearing things.
The worst ramp noise i can ever recall was in LBA we were on the airbridge and at one side was a bmi Embraer, the APU was noisier than the engines and on the other side a couple of stands away was a BRAL J31/41 powering back of stand that sounded like a thousand chain saws, after that i alway picked the sector that kept me in cockpit at LBA, the ramp guys there must be deaf by now
There is simply no justification for running an APU on turn around provided stable ground power (mains ideally) is available, if your down in Spain and it super warm then conditioned ground air should be available falling that, yes run the APU for passenger/crew convenience if your airline permits, some don't !! i gather?
Ditto if it super cold, ground handlers have to work directly under the APU's and yes they have ear defenders, but they can be a safety risk in cutting off a very important sense i.e. hearing things.
The worst ramp noise i can ever recall was in LBA we were on the airbridge and at one side was a bmi Embraer, the APU was noisier than the engines and on the other side a couple of stands away was a BRAL J31/41 powering back of stand that sounded like a thousand chain saws, after that i alway picked the sector that kept me in cockpit at LBA, the ramp guys there must be deaf by now
Just to add a bit of levity:
I am absolutely not surprised but a lot of you tree-huggers out there have missed my main point.
Where I mentioned that the fact that we did a 20 minute turn round seems to have gone through one ear and out of the other.
Even in those days, APUs were allowed at even the most restricted airfields, for 5 minutes after blocks in and then 10 minutes before blocks out. (Except in exceptional circumstances).
Ergo; on a 20 minute turnaround, we are actually only talking about a 5 minute gap in between the two parameters. I am amazed that the loaders even noticed. I certainly didn't because I was a bit busy and forgot to start my stopwatch.
I am absolutely not surprised but a lot of you tree-huggers out there have missed my main point.
Where I mentioned that the fact that we did a 20 minute turn round seems to have gone through one ear and out of the other.
Even in those days, APUs were allowed at even the most restricted airfields, for 5 minutes after blocks in and then 10 minutes before blocks out. (Except in exceptional circumstances).
Ergo; on a 20 minute turnaround, we are actually only talking about a 5 minute gap in between the two parameters. I am amazed that the loaders even noticed. I certainly didn't because I was a bit busy and forgot to start my stopwatch.
I spent three years working in diesel and steamship engine rooms where, in order to communicate with the fireman or other engineer, our heads had to be almost touching (Hold the sailor jokes). Turbo Diesel - nuff sed; steam turbine roar from the main gearbox and buzz like packs from the turbo feed pump.
We were not issued with ear defenders.
You won't be surprised that I'm not greatly exercised by the loaders with ear defenders having to put up with an APU running for five minutes.
We were not issued with ear defenders.
You won't be surprised that I'm not greatly exercised by the loaders with ear defenders having to put up with an APU running for five minutes.
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There is something quite uplifting in the fact that you two are no longer relevant.
Now, how about getting back to the topic of the thread instead of reminiscing about your past reenactments of upstairs/downstairs.
Now, how about getting back to the topic of the thread instead of reminiscing about your past reenactments of upstairs/downstairs.
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KBPsen wrote:
Hopefully you too will be retiring soon and then we can be equally obnoxious when we dismiss you are being irrelevant and unworthy of an opinion or contribution. T1T.
There is something quite uplifting in the fact that you two are no longer relevant.
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When that day comes ground crews are going to miss me as I don't play silly games for the sake of my ego.
I'll miss them too as they are willing to fight on our side despite us never reciprocating. In many ways a loader has a lot more integrity than those who feel they are above them.
I'll miss them too as they are willing to fight on our side despite us never reciprocating. In many ways a loader has a lot more integrity than those who feel they are above them.
JaxofMarlow,
What? Was someone being rude? 
Basil of Marlow - perhaps we pass walking our dogs
It is such a shame so many of us are so bloody rude. Must be part of the training!
Basil of Marlow - perhaps we pass walking our dogs
Thread Starter
Interesting set of reactions here, given the implications.
Some have turned this into a ramp worker bashfest, ignoring the fact it will up to those ramp workers to force Ryanair to sign a collective agreement for its flying crews based in CPH. If Ryanair chooses not to, they will not be handled in CPH. If they chose to sign, that will open the floodgates for everyone currently employed by Ryanair, or any other airline on similar terms.
In so many words, pilots and cabin crew have proved unable or unwilling to force collective bargaining on Ryanair, and the battleground will instead be on the ramp, by ramp workers, in CPH. Yet all some of you have done, is taking the opportunity to have a go at these guys, for advising you to follow the rules on running an APU FFS!
The worst enemy of a pilot is not, it would seem, a Michael O'Leary type, but rather pilots themselves.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Some have turned this into a ramp worker bashfest, ignoring the fact it will up to those ramp workers to force Ryanair to sign a collective agreement for its flying crews based in CPH. If Ryanair chooses not to, they will not be handled in CPH. If they chose to sign, that will open the floodgates for everyone currently employed by Ryanair, or any other airline on similar terms.
In so many words, pilots and cabin crew have proved unable or unwilling to force collective bargaining on Ryanair, and the battleground will instead be on the ramp, by ramp workers, in CPH. Yet all some of you have done, is taking the opportunity to have a go at these guys, for advising you to follow the rules on running an APU FFS!
The worst enemy of a pilot is not, it would seem, a Michael O'Leary type, but rather pilots themselves.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Yep. Not much solidarity to be seen around these parts nowadays. RYR guys should be happy that someone is willing to stand up for them.
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But will they stand up to Ryanair?
Their company just lost their biggest contract, not serving Ryanair might well mean bankruptcy for their company. I applaud them in their action, but fear resolve might fail in the face of unemployment while defending someone else's right to a collective agreement. Will the CPH based Ryanair crew join their strike?
Their company just lost their biggest contract, not serving Ryanair might well mean bankruptcy for their company. I applaud them in their action, but fear resolve might fail in the face of unemployment while defending someone else's right to a collective agreement. Will the CPH based Ryanair crew join their strike?
Re the OP:
I thought that pretty well covered it. No Danegeld, no base.
The word from them is simple: They sign a collective agreement with their cabin attendants and pilots based in CPH, or they bugger off.
Transparency International
And no base seems to be Ryanairs solution.
On a press conference today (12 FEB 2015) Edward Wilson, Director of Personnel and In-flight, announced that Ryanair will drop the CPH base but nevertheless open 8 routes to CPH beginning March 18, a week earlier than initially announced.
Also today Danish newspaper AVISEN.DK wrote that Ryanair surprisingly had accepted a meeting with the union, FPU, though not to negotiate an agreement.
http://www.flyvebranchen.dk/nyheder/...ease-from-fpu/
On a press conference today (12 FEB 2015) Edward Wilson, Director of Personnel and In-flight, announced that Ryanair will drop the CPH base but nevertheless open 8 routes to CPH beginning March 18, a week earlier than initially announced.
Also today Danish newspaper AVISEN.DK wrote that Ryanair surprisingly had accepted a meeting with the union, FPU, though not to negotiate an agreement.
http://www.flyvebranchen.dk/nyheder/...ease-from-fpu/
Last edited by dusk2dawn; 26th Feb 2015 at 19:20. Reason: Add URL re meeting with Ryanair (English text)