Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
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Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
I think we should make an updated and current list of airlines whose pilots gained access to their flight deck seat by paying a large sum of money to the airline whose aircraft they fly, or to a third party that has an agreement with said airline.
I am not referring here to airlines that have corrupt employees who take personal bribes from pilot candidates before accepting them on a course, which is common in certain areas of the world, but about airlines whose official policy is to hire pilots who accept to pay a large amount of money for either their type rating, for their line training, or in some cases for both.
We should list those that do it directly with the candidate, and those that do it through a third party, whether an agency, a flight training company and disguise the practice as "training".
Airlines that re-reimburse the whole training cost to the pilots should not be included. Others that reimburse part of the cost but keep a portion, or allow to keep the school or hiring agency to keep a large sum, should be included.
Of course we must not include airlines that hired non pilots and trained them, but only airlines that do this to candidates who are already in possession of a pilots licence, and sometimes even a type rating.
Would also like to hear about airlines that used to make pilots pay to fly but have since discontinued the practice, and why, and also about airlines that did not do this in the past, but now engage in this practice.
I am not referring here to airlines that have corrupt employees who take personal bribes from pilot candidates before accepting them on a course, which is common in certain areas of the world, but about airlines whose official policy is to hire pilots who accept to pay a large amount of money for either their type rating, for their line training, or in some cases for both.
We should list those that do it directly with the candidate, and those that do it through a third party, whether an agency, a flight training company and disguise the practice as "training".
Airlines that re-reimburse the whole training cost to the pilots should not be included. Others that reimburse part of the cost but keep a portion, or allow to keep the school or hiring agency to keep a large sum, should be included.
Of course we must not include airlines that hired non pilots and trained them, but only airlines that do this to candidates who are already in possession of a pilots licence, and sometimes even a type rating.
Would also like to hear about airlines that used to make pilots pay to fly but have since discontinued the practice, and why, and also about airlines that did not do this in the past, but now engage in this practice.
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt; 26th Jan 2015 at 13:36. Reason: typos etc
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RyanAir seems to be one that fits the description:
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6
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Good plan Gilles,
About Ryan Air , that one does not fit the real description . There you pay for your own TR. Agree with that, but then you GET paid to fly for them.
P2F is where you pay for own TR+LT. And now days no salary during LT.
But further I support your plan.
About Ryan Air , that one does not fit the real description . There you pay for your own TR. Agree with that, but then you GET paid to fly for them.
P2F is where you pay for own TR+LT. And now days no salary during LT.
But further I support your plan.
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Ok, they make you pay the type rating. But what about this part:
After paying the 28,500 Euros, it says:
How often are successful candidates not hired by the "contract pilot agency" after spending the money ? How often are they hired for a short while and then let go for no apparent reason ?
After paying the 28,500 Euros, it says:
Opportunity to Fly for Ryanair
Successful candidates may be offered an opportunity to fly for a contract pilot agency that supplies a pool of pilots that operate on Ryanair aircraft.
Successful candidates may be offered an opportunity to fly for a contract pilot agency that supplies a pool of pilots that operate on Ryanair aircraft.
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Can P2F airlines be discussed here or not ?
Why did I just post something about P2F airlines, just to see it instantly moved to the "Wannabes Forums" ? I am not a Wannabee. I am a 15,000+ hour airline pilot employed at the same airline for the past 16 years but who wants to discuss the P2F issue in World airlines. I think its a problem that needs to be discussed and that it should not just be of concern to Wananbee pilots, especially in light of recent high profile accidents that may have involved P2F pilots.
The Urban dictionary describes "P2F" like this:
Is P2F a "dirty little secret" on this Forum also ?
The Urban dictionary describes "P2F" like this:
P2F or 'Pay To Fly' is a phrase used to describe the aviation industry's dirtiest little secret. That whereby which new pilot recruits (co-pilots) pay an airline in order to fly their passenger loaded, profit making aircraft. Sums of $30k to $50k are routinely exchanged in an industry full of so many jobless young pilots that the airline cannot resist in the face of such a supply vs. demand situation.
P2F is the product of an obscene lack of regulation within the pilot recruitment industry whereby any Nicholas, David or Angela who has the money can fly a 200+ passenger aircraft for a short while whilst building valuable flying time. Often jokingly referred to as a "training" contract, it in reality relieves the airline of the headache associated with permanently employing experienced pilots. Pilots who might otherwise have a genuine need to be paid a salary or be based close to family.
P2F is the product of an obscene lack of regulation within the pilot recruitment industry whereby any Nicholas, David or Angela who has the money can fly a 200+ passenger aircraft for a short while whilst building valuable flying time. Often jokingly referred to as a "training" contract, it in reality relieves the airline of the headache associated with permanently employing experienced pilots. Pilots who might otherwise have a genuine need to be paid a salary or be based close to family.
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P40Warhawk wrote that Ryan Air charges for expensive Type Ratings but that the pilots do not pay for line flying, and that they are paid to fly, so that this airline does not fit the definition of P2F.
He also wrote about chances of getting hired after the training:
He also wrote about chances of getting hired after the training:
Well the chances are really big that you stay after training. But that is what I heard from pilots who work for FR. That I cannot confirm.
Otherwise it is only that you pay a lot of money for your TR. True on that.
Otherwise it is only that you pay a lot of money for your TR. True on that.
In Ryanair, the deal is that you get taken on as a contractor on a multiple year contract with an established agency when you start your type rating. The costs incurred are offset against tax over the following years.
However, you do have to find a large lump sum up front to pay for your type rating. The only time you would be binned is for lack of ability.
It is not P2F in the sense that you pay for a rating and 300h LT and you are out at the end as Norwegian are offering at the moment.
However, you do have to find a large lump sum up front to pay for your type rating. The only time you would be binned is for lack of ability.
It is not P2F in the sense that you pay for a rating and 300h LT and you are out at the end as Norwegian are offering at the moment.
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Originally Posted by JWScud
t is not P2F in the sense that you pay for a rating and 300h LT and you are out at the end as Norwegian are offering at the moment.
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For all its faults and bad treatment of staff, RYR don't do this. Giles and smudger, do your homework before you throw accusations. Look a little closer to home at the orange outfit - I don't know if they still do it, but they had P2F through CTC. Funny how they are portrayed as saints all the time, despite behaving so dispicably.
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I think this was discussed. They charge this:
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6
but then do not charge any further for line training, and also pay the pilots who are on line.
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6
Financial Structure
Assessment fee: £260 (The Assessment fee is non-refundable)
Type Rating Course:
- € 28,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting before 31 March 2015)
- € 29,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting on/after 01 April 2015)
Extra costs (travelling, housing, ID application, etc.): at cost, payable by student.
Assessment fee: £260 (The Assessment fee is non-refundable)
Type Rating Course:
- € 28,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting before 31 March 2015)
- € 29,500 excluding VAT (for courses starting on/after 01 April 2015)
Extra costs (travelling, housing, ID application, etc.): at cost, payable by student.
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Self-sponsored type rating sadly is the norm these days. It is not remotely the same as P2F, which starts with a self sponsored type rating and then a contracted period where the pilot pays the airline for line training and experience, typically about £10k for six months. This clearly is not P2F.
What is poor about the RYR scheme is running the selection panel at a profit and employing the cadets on zero-hour contracts.
What is poor about the RYR scheme is running the selection panel at a profit and employing the cadets on zero-hour contracts.
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Very interesting info. EasyJet tried P2F and rejected it. Now they require a large "Security deposit" which is re-imbursed over 7 years.
RyanAir just charges a large sum for the type rating.
What other companies (Wordwide) do P2F these days. Any details please ?
RyanAir just charges a large sum for the type rating.
What other companies (Wordwide) do P2F these days. Any details please ?
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AIR BALTIC
ROYAL AIR MAROC
GERMANIA
TUNISAIR
SWIFTAIR
FARNAIR
LIONAIR
AIR ASIA
ENTER AIR
SMALL PLANET
Please add...
All of these outfits have at one point, or still practice Work to Fly, which is not only morally discusting, it is also dangerous.
Public beware.
DO NOT FLY ON THESE DANGEROUS CARRIERS.
ROYAL AIR MAROC
GERMANIA
TUNISAIR
SWIFTAIR
FARNAIR
LIONAIR
AIR ASIA
ENTER AIR
SMALL PLANET
Please add...
All of these outfits have at one point, or still practice Work to Fly, which is not only morally discusting, it is also dangerous.
Public beware.
DO NOT FLY ON THESE DANGEROUS CARRIERS.
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Nuvolair
Atlasjet
Corendon
SunExpress
Freebird
Blue Air
Blupanorama
Smartwings
Albastar
Vueling
Pegasus
Windjet
AirMediterranee
FlyHermes
Adria
Air Italy
Air Bucharest
Maldivian Airlines
Biman Bangladesh Airlines
Air Go airlines
Al Masria
Skies Airlines
Armavia
Air Armenia
Atlasjet
Corendon
SunExpress
Freebird
Blue Air
Blupanorama
Smartwings
Albastar
Vueling
Pegasus
Windjet
AirMediterranee
FlyHermes
Adria
Air Italy
Air Bucharest
Maldivian Airlines
Biman Bangladesh Airlines
Air Go airlines
Al Masria
Skies Airlines
Armavia
Air Armenia
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How exactly are the airlines responsible for this, they are not forcing anybody to do anything.
The people responsible for this are the people who are stupid enough to pay for working, if everybody stopped paying this would simply come to an end.
I would never pay to work, I get paid well for my time on the job.
The people responsible for this are the people who are stupid enough to pay for working, if everybody stopped paying this would simply come to an end.
I would never pay to work, I get paid well for my time on the job.
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Lets not forget, PTF can be sneakily hidden beneath the veneer of high course cost and reduced initial salary.
And yes there are a number of companies in the UK trying to steal an edge on the decent operators by maximising the utilisation of this sharp practice.
There is an opinion that both are driving the whole effect downwards, and dragging the decent operators with them, it is clear to see that the blue propoganda is much more transparent in this particular area than the orange.
And yes there are a number of companies in the UK trying to steal an edge on the decent operators by maximising the utilisation of this sharp practice.
There is an opinion that both are driving the whole effect downwards, and dragging the decent operators with them, it is clear to see that the blue propoganda is much more transparent in this particular area than the orange.