Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
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Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
With a deadline to sign new contracts rapidly approaching (19th December), my friends at NAS tell me that the pilots are not happy and,to date, no-one has signed.
Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?
Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?
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Barbour, who are you? First of all, The a Grim Reaper has said nothing offensive and there are no grounds for complaint at his statement of the facts. You sound like a manipulative and controlling management loser at NAS who seeks to threaten and manipulate your own staff to bully them into signing some dire contract. Your Company is a dreadful example of how to treat its staff, and the purpose of this forum is to identify these and worst potential employers in the market. Where do you think your company fits on that scale? Answers on a postcard to .......
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Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?
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In a minor way the frozen ATPL kids do add to the overall problem, as do the "experienced guys who didnt make a stand" and the unions "who have no teeth and are just self serving until they can get management roles" etc etc as is reported on various thresd on here.
However all these seperate effects are a drop in the ocean. The major reason is that Employment law has been changed by the governments to allow the current set up. Money now absolutely rules any decision making. And people now sit very low on any company importance scale.
Its worse than that.. like a long term cancer case, the situation will only ever get worse. A nibble here a scam there. Not so much a race to the bottom. More a gentle glide to the bottom.
One across the board union and a shift of government to any parties that genuinely have people at the core of what they do is the only hope
Surely NAS arent as bad as the previous crop of locos?
However all these seperate effects are a drop in the ocean. The major reason is that Employment law has been changed by the governments to allow the current set up. Money now absolutely rules any decision making. And people now sit very low on any company importance scale.
Its worse than that.. like a long term cancer case, the situation will only ever get worse. A nibble here a scam there. Not so much a race to the bottom. More a gentle glide to the bottom.
One across the board union and a shift of government to any parties that genuinely have people at the core of what they do is the only hope
Surely NAS arent as bad as the previous crop of locos?
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i do realise that 90 percent of people actually writing anything on pprune it's gonna be all negative, and there is absolutely room for improvement in nas, that being said almost everyone i fly with, including three of the guys who got FIRED (if that's what you call two months unwilling vacation) are really pretty happy, i just wanna make sure that those of you that draw parralels between nas and ryan, have either forgotten what you came from, or dunno wtf you're talking about....
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Chrian, I guess abbreviating 'termination of contract' (whatever is the reason behind it) to 'fired' lies a bit closer to the truth than 'unwilling vacation'.
I personally know a couple of pilots working in Norwegian, and they're great people, and most of the workforce seems so as well. But the workplace is getting worse.
Myself being a 'frozen atpl kid' (heck, wish I could still call myself 'kid') will not even bother sending an application for the 3 month gig. It is shooting oneself in the foot plain and simple, ethical dilemmas aside.
I will save up a bit more dough and apply to Ryanair. And I do know what I am talking about. The TR cost is similar, but at least at FR you get an ongoing contract, instead of 3 months. If you can contradict that, please do, as I would not have believed it'd be like that if someone had told me 2 years ago.
I personally know a couple of pilots working in Norwegian, and they're great people, and most of the workforce seems so as well. But the workplace is getting worse.
Myself being a 'frozen atpl kid' (heck, wish I could still call myself 'kid') will not even bother sending an application for the 3 month gig. It is shooting oneself in the foot plain and simple, ethical dilemmas aside.
I will save up a bit more dough and apply to Ryanair. And I do know what I am talking about. The TR cost is similar, but at least at FR you get an ongoing contract, instead of 3 months. If you can contradict that, please do, as I would not have believed it'd be like that if someone had told me 2 years ago.
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From what I've heard, it's not that things are necessarily dire at NAS, it's that they could be better and the current contract shambles combined with winter lay-offs (which the pilots themselves stepped in to alleviate by voluntarily taking reduced rosters or unpaid time off) is pushing things in the wrong direction.
I think that pilots around the world have sensed (correctly or not) that now is a good time to try and improve the standard of management that they are experiencing on a daily basis and try and prevent the entire industry sliding in the direction of the small island west of the UK...
It would appear that there is some discontent at Emirates too...
I think that pilots around the world have sensed (correctly or not) that now is a good time to try and improve the standard of management that they are experiencing on a daily basis and try and prevent the entire industry sliding in the direction of the small island west of the UK...
It would appear that there is some discontent at Emirates too...
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What is the difference between being laid-off for 3-4 months and not being given any work as a 'self-employed' contractor for 3-4 months; or being given 1 days flying out of 5 and spending 4 days on unpaid SBY on the other side of Europe to your company's office = home? If cabin crew can be dumped for 3 months and forbidden to fly elsewhere, it won't take long for the pilots to be next in line. Zero hour contracts are great for any company, but lousy for workers; and even worse if you are on duty for no pay. How did anyone ever let that happen? There's bad and worse; it doesn't mean the bad is good, relative.
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This job is getting drastically worse and worse year after year.
Most of those new generation kids will do this job from 20 years of age to maximum 40-45 years of age and will eventually switch to another professional activity afterwards.
Most of those new generation kids will do this job from 20 years of age to maximum 40-45 years of age and will eventually switch to another professional activity afterwards.
Last edited by wind check; 18th Dec 2014 at 19:59. Reason: I forgot to write "to" somewhere.
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Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?
Good luck in this industry.
and there is absolutely room for improvement in nas
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Why do some companies put so little importance on their labour relations?
Time to reflect on how the job & life style has changed over the past 50 years. In most of W.Europe the most flying jobs were with national government-owned national unionised flag carriers. They were the standard bearers, worldwide ambassadors and advertisers for their countries. Great pride was taken in them, by them and by their employees. It was a coveted position and very well paid. Only the well-healed experienced it.
Later came the charter/holiday carriers; the 2nd tier. The likes of Britannia, Monarch: and similar in other countries, and the 2nd tier of privately owned scheduled carriers e.g. B.Cal & BMI, and many others in the continental countries. Some survived and many others fell by the way-side or were swallowed. In all aspects it was still a respected profession, and well remunerated with the nationals at the top of the tree. There were standards in service and T's & C's which were well understood by all.
Then came privatisation and the governments sold their investments to public shareholders. Now profit was the only parameter. Lo & behold it was discovered that this was a vocational industry; people would kill their grandmothers for a step on the ladder, and pay to do it. The profiteers couldn't believe their luck and the cancer started. Also, the market was deregulated and anyone could start up an airline flying from anywhere in EU to anywhere in EU. Cut price was the answer. The supermarkets had done it and some had won; McDonalds had done it etc. etc. LoCo's were born and the pax lapped it up. The expansion of EU into poorer countries helped very much, with traffic going both ways. Holiday models changed, from 2 weeks x 2 if you were lucky, into more short breaks and spontaneous trips. Perfect for LoCo's. The majors suffered and had to respond. They saw that crews would accept lower T's & C's in the 2nd tier companies and so they embarked on following suit. Unions tried to stem the slide, with some modicum of success, but the journey is not yet anywhere near over.
Predicting the future is always difficult, but anticipating where this profession will be in 20 years time needs more than a crystal ball. One thing is certain, the share-holders will call the shots. The pax might not like it, but they will vote with either their feet or their wallets. Personnel in all departments will suffer, but it will be the 'vocational' ones who will suffer most.
Given the world economic climate there will always be more people seeking employment than vacancies available. Thus employers can cherry pick at will. The queue will always be longer than empty places. Job seekers will be on eternal SBY waiting for the call.
The market has decided and T's & C's fell. The market may also decide if there is a shortage of crews & engineers. This has been talked about ever since I joined, (and have since finished). It hasn't happened yet. Some are still crying "wolf" and we await the first bite.
Time to reflect on how the job & life style has changed over the past 50 years. In most of W.Europe the most flying jobs were with national government-owned national unionised flag carriers. They were the standard bearers, worldwide ambassadors and advertisers for their countries. Great pride was taken in them, by them and by their employees. It was a coveted position and very well paid. Only the well-healed experienced it.
Later came the charter/holiday carriers; the 2nd tier. The likes of Britannia, Monarch: and similar in other countries, and the 2nd tier of privately owned scheduled carriers e.g. B.Cal & BMI, and many others in the continental countries. Some survived and many others fell by the way-side or were swallowed. In all aspects it was still a respected profession, and well remunerated with the nationals at the top of the tree. There were standards in service and T's & C's which were well understood by all.
Then came privatisation and the governments sold their investments to public shareholders. Now profit was the only parameter. Lo & behold it was discovered that this was a vocational industry; people would kill their grandmothers for a step on the ladder, and pay to do it. The profiteers couldn't believe their luck and the cancer started. Also, the market was deregulated and anyone could start up an airline flying from anywhere in EU to anywhere in EU. Cut price was the answer. The supermarkets had done it and some had won; McDonalds had done it etc. etc. LoCo's were born and the pax lapped it up. The expansion of EU into poorer countries helped very much, with traffic going both ways. Holiday models changed, from 2 weeks x 2 if you were lucky, into more short breaks and spontaneous trips. Perfect for LoCo's. The majors suffered and had to respond. They saw that crews would accept lower T's & C's in the 2nd tier companies and so they embarked on following suit. Unions tried to stem the slide, with some modicum of success, but the journey is not yet anywhere near over.
Predicting the future is always difficult, but anticipating where this profession will be in 20 years time needs more than a crystal ball. One thing is certain, the share-holders will call the shots. The pax might not like it, but they will vote with either their feet or their wallets. Personnel in all departments will suffer, but it will be the 'vocational' ones who will suffer most.
Given the world economic climate there will always be more people seeking employment than vacancies available. Thus employers can cherry pick at will. The queue will always be longer than empty places. Job seekers will be on eternal SBY waiting for the call.
The market has decided and T's & C's fell. The market may also decide if there is a shortage of crews & engineers. This has been talked about ever since I joined, (and have since finished). It hasn't happened yet. Some are still crying "wolf" and we await the first bite.
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I confirm the same people unhappy with EK, not about the contract itself, about what they dare calling a "Management"...
Heard it is about to get some change, let's see!
Heard it is about to get some change, let's see!
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Dismay in core too. December wages decreased by 20000 NOK for pilots because a "calculation error" with assurances that they "accidentally" discovered the day before last salary this year. Merry ******* christimas.
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Management across the board hasn't really started with captain Ts&Cs yet...
Help me out with this one, then.
There is a basic labour law in EU that when 2 people are on same contract doing same job one can not be treated 'less favourably' than the other.
In some airlines i have been told that new upgraded captains are paid 10% less in their first year than other captains. Their contracts are the same; there is no seniority pay scale; there is no probation period; there are no extra tests at the end of one year. i.e. in their 1st year as a captain they are treated less favourably than their colleagues. How did that happen? Am I mis-informed? And please don't tell me this happens as well as having to pay for all expenses while jumping through the command course hoops.
If true, the captains' T's & C's are under attack already. Wait until the majors try to dilute seniority scales. The manure will hit the air-conditioning in a very smelly manner. But they will try.
Help me out with this one, then.
There is a basic labour law in EU that when 2 people are on same contract doing same job one can not be treated 'less favourably' than the other.
In some airlines i have been told that new upgraded captains are paid 10% less in their first year than other captains. Their contracts are the same; there is no seniority pay scale; there is no probation period; there are no extra tests at the end of one year. i.e. in their 1st year as a captain they are treated less favourably than their colleagues. How did that happen? Am I mis-informed? And please don't tell me this happens as well as having to pay for all expenses while jumping through the command course hoops.
If true, the captains' T's & C's are under attack already. Wait until the majors try to dilute seniority scales. The manure will hit the air-conditioning in a very smelly manner. But they will try.
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betternexttime,
believe me, no-one on the Contract side will take any joy in seeing you being shafted for their cock-up, as you say, "Merry ------- Xmas" from Father (Bjorn) Xmas & his team. . . doubt if the hangar party was much compensation, instead of
all the cash on that, better they took care of this mess they didn't anticipate.
believe me, no-one on the Contract side will take any joy in seeing you being shafted for their cock-up, as you say, "Merry ------- Xmas" from Father (Bjorn) Xmas & his team. . . doubt if the hangar party was much compensation, instead of
all the cash on that, better they took care of this mess they didn't anticipate.
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let's get one thing straight, i do not agree with management putting out a letter that said termination of contract, maybe they should have started with sorry guys, but we need a little fewer pilots this winter and therefore, you will not be working a few months, but wtf stop making a big deal of it. i'm still laughing at the idiot that said "even in ryanair i do not get laid off" first of all, everyone will be working in april THE LATEST, and secondly ryan just has 5 guys flying 100 hours instead of one guy, explay the effen difference to me.... what company in their right mind is gonna keep 60 guys on basic pay, you all signed a contract that said you could be terminated in 60 days, and now you don't like the smell in the bakery, seriously, get REAL.....
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What company would hire 60 pilots they didn't need ?
Some seriously rude, offensive and illiterate comments in defence of NAS here. I wonder why. Does this reflect the internal management culture. I wonder if I will get threatened now for saying so !
Some seriously rude, offensive and illiterate comments in defence of NAS here. I wonder why. Does this reflect the internal management culture. I wonder if I will get threatened now for saying so !