Wizzair
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
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Because for local pilots Wizz, Ryanair, etc. are the only operators where they have (in time, subject to base waiting lists - could be another thread on it's own...) the opportunity to be based at home. These operators are well aware and thrive on this status quo by getting away with pretty much anything. The reasons why aren't these local pilots stand up for themselves and unionize could also worth another thread.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
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Clop_Clop
You are absolutely right. Workers trying to organise labour in the early 20th century learnt the hard way how hard employers would push back against the Unions, up to and including the use of intimidation and violence. Unfortunately, the Unions lost their way by the end of the century and often became as corrupt as their employers and so became discredited. The current generation of pilots (and young workers in general) will have to re-fight these battles to secure a viable future for themselves. In the current climate, pilots need a pan European Union to fight their cause as the national Unions are largely ineffectual and defenestrated by anti labour laws.
You are absolutely right. Workers trying to organise labour in the early 20th century learnt the hard way how hard employers would push back against the Unions, up to and including the use of intimidation and violence. Unfortunately, the Unions lost their way by the end of the century and often became as corrupt as their employers and so became discredited. The current generation of pilots (and young workers in general) will have to re-fight these battles to secure a viable future for themselves. In the current climate, pilots need a pan European Union to fight their cause as the national Unions are largely ineffectual and defenestrated by anti labour laws.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Geneva
Age: 37
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New routes
Bari to London LTN
Bari to Basel
Bari to Milan LIN
Bari to Venice-TSF
Bari to Mykonos
Bari to Corfu
Bari to Tel Aviv
Bari to Abu Dhabi
Warsaw to Malaga
Lviv to Warsaw
Lviv to Poznan
Lviv to Memmingen
Lublin to Bourgas
Cluj-Napoca to Catania
Clus-Napoca to Chania
Milan MXP to Casablanca (NEW DESTINATION)
Milan MXP to Sharm el Sheikh
Bari to London LTN
Bari to Basel
Bari to Milan LIN
Bari to Venice-TSF
Bari to Mykonos
Bari to Corfu
Bari to Tel Aviv
Bari to Abu Dhabi
Warsaw to Malaga
Lviv to Warsaw
Lviv to Poznan
Lviv to Memmingen
Lublin to Bourgas
Cluj-Napoca to Catania
Clus-Napoca to Chania
Milan MXP to Casablanca (NEW DESTINATION)
Milan MXP to Sharm el Sheikh
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: London
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An interesting letter from Varadi to the pilots 10 days ago is discussed from mouth to mouth. But due to the new strict cyber security policy no one dares to publish it. He more or less confess that there was such meeting on 4th of April and the record is from that meeting! But what Wizzair did is not illegal, illegal is only that someone dared to record the meeting. Day after day I am convinced that this guy has serious mental problems and must seek help - this is a behavior of 4 years old boy who just broke his toy - but this one is responsible for millions of dollars ..... and lives
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Mars
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This outfit is a major threat to safety and the pilot profession. Why are unions like BALPA not more vocal in calling them out? Of course the cadet pilot community will be prosecuting themselves today to sit in a pink bus but will wonder why the Captains aren’t saving them. #lambstotheslaughter
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Out of curiosity, I checked out the hiring page. There are loads of office and engineering positions advertised, some of them have been around for months. Makes me wonder how come that they're still vacant in this market.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Switzerland ... oh wait: Swaziland
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Crap salary, no bonus, no paid overtime, no healthcare, no pension scheme, no travel arrangements, high turnover, the known quality of management and HR. The HQ is in the middle of nowhere in a neighborhood infested with homeless people and drug users. Two (or three) big pharmaceutical factories are in the vicinity. No guarded parking (except for the Porsches of course). Youngsters are hired from the street to patch plaster the holes, there are amateurs everywhere you look yet loyalty is declared to mean nothing for the company. You sign in your contact that you keep your salary a secret (!) so that they can hire others for a lot more (or less) money for the same position. El jefe says it's no problem if you are so overloaded that you can only perform 80% of your tasks, the remaining 20% was not important anyway. That's how aviation is supposed to work, right?
Last edited by TBSC; 8th May 2021 at 18:45.
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Just wait for the much-feared side effects of almost universal remote working. Unless the state intervenes to protect the interests of the workforce, it's a matter of time before we start seeing replacement of local remote workers with ones from the third world who are just as qualified but willing to work for a fraction of the money a local would ask for. After all, if someone doesn't have a physical workspace and can work from anywhere in the world, they might as well be based in a different country quite far afield.
The point I'm trying to put across with the former example is that it's largely in the hands of your government to protect the labor market from depreciation. Introduce a strong labor protection code to safeguard the workforce from any questionable employment practices and from unduly cheap competition. While the lawlessness of some countries and the low expectations of their population provided cheap workforce for the better-off countries, everyone in the latter was merrily exploiting all the construction workers and crop harvesters willing to literally work for food. Who would have thought that the very same lawless and low-standard states could also become the source of highly qualified professionals, including pilots. Most businesses would be crazy not to make advantage of this in one way or another, especially in tough times. Whether that's by outsourcing seasonal capacity to the super cheap ACMI outfits further east or by pushing local workers to accept lower working conditions to stay on par with the lowest-paid foreign carrier having a base or two in the country.
The point I'm trying to put across with the former example is that it's largely in the hands of your government to protect the labor market from depreciation. Introduce a strong labor protection code to safeguard the workforce from any questionable employment practices and from unduly cheap competition. While the lawlessness of some countries and the low expectations of their population provided cheap workforce for the better-off countries, everyone in the latter was merrily exploiting all the construction workers and crop harvesters willing to literally work for food. Who would have thought that the very same lawless and low-standard states could also become the source of highly qualified professionals, including pilots. Most businesses would be crazy not to make advantage of this in one way or another, especially in tough times. Whether that's by outsourcing seasonal capacity to the super cheap ACMI outfits further east or by pushing local workers to accept lower working conditions to stay on par with the lowest-paid foreign carrier having a base or two in the country.
Only half a speed-brake
Last time I checked, RYR HQ was pretty much as west of the EU as it gets. No hurt feelings but if you want to protect your jobs, bogus self-emplyment needs to be stopped. Right there, on your own frontyard, with the largest pax carrier the region has.
Until that day comes, all the western shareholders and Commonwealth crooked agencies will put resources where the cost advantage is. To the benefit of the customers and themselves alike, which becomes impossible to oppose.
Until that day comes, all the western shareholders and Commonwealth crooked agencies will put resources where the cost advantage is. To the benefit of the customers and themselves alike, which becomes impossible to oppose.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 9th May 2021 at 01:58.
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Modular Halil
Spot on. For most, LCCs are a stepping stone to better jobs. Hence, they're ready to do whatever it takes for a couple of years to get those A320 or B737 hours, possibly get some LHS experience, maybe even some instructor experience. Those are the people whose long-term goals ensure a high staff turnover at any LCC (at least in normal times when there are multiple job opportunities). And then, there are the others who are not planning to move on because they value being based in their home cities more than the prospects of higher pay and better treatment abroad. No judgement passed here, everyone's priorities are different. I think that this is enough of an answer to the question of why people work for the big three regardless their downsides.
Spot on. For most, LCCs are a stepping stone to better jobs. Hence, they're ready to do whatever it takes for a couple of years to get those A320 or B737 hours, possibly get some LHS experience, maybe even some instructor experience. Those are the people whose long-term goals ensure a high staff turnover at any LCC (at least in normal times when there are multiple job opportunities). And then, there are the others who are not planning to move on because they value being based in their home cities more than the prospects of higher pay and better treatment abroad. No judgement passed here, everyone's priorities are different. I think that this is enough of an answer to the question of why people work for the big three regardless their downsides.
Only half a speed-brake
There's no upper step. And people mostly do not come to Wizz to join the proper high-class EU airlines later, they come because they were not accepted there in the first place.
The exit trajectory was to the ME, which is A) gone B) a dubious choice for many years already.
Yet there was a proper reason to join, the ATPLf / TR path for a new pilot. WZZ scheme was very honest and has helped legions get their first and(!) jet job. The stories I hear from the freelance TRIs about pink cadets are very uplifting. Engaged, motivated, trained to proper standard and smart lizards they are, exactly the way you'd wish them to be. Young talents, literally.
What do you with that job 5 years later is the Kobayashi Maru.
The exit trajectory was to the ME, which is A) gone B) a dubious choice for many years already.
Yet there was a proper reason to join, the ATPLf / TR path for a new pilot. WZZ scheme was very honest and has helped legions get their first and(!) jet job. The stories I hear from the freelance TRIs about pink cadets are very uplifting. Engaged, motivated, trained to proper standard and smart lizards they are, exactly the way you'd wish them to be. Young talents, literally.
What do you with that job 5 years later is the Kobayashi Maru.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 9th May 2021 at 07:10.
Join Date: Nov 2018
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The main problem is the total lack of intra European trade unions.
There are a few existing ones, but I'm afraid that they are only european by name. I couldn't find any blanket legislation providing an equal right to negotiate and to stand in court if needed throughout all European member states for these unions.
In aviation, regarding businesses of Ryanair or Wizzair, etc., it would be impossible to strike for example in Poland and the same time to prevent the seats to be filled by Romanian or Hungarian pilots in the same time. Works vice versa unfortunately.
If we can get that part right (in a federal Europe would be rather easy) these companies would have a much narrower playing field when it comes to further degrading their workers' conditions and rights.
I stand to be corrected regarding all of the above of course.
There are a few existing ones, but I'm afraid that they are only european by name. I couldn't find any blanket legislation providing an equal right to negotiate and to stand in court if needed throughout all European member states for these unions.
In aviation, regarding businesses of Ryanair or Wizzair, etc., it would be impossible to strike for example in Poland and the same time to prevent the seats to be filled by Romanian or Hungarian pilots in the same time. Works vice versa unfortunately.
If we can get that part right (in a federal Europe would be rather easy) these companies would have a much narrower playing field when it comes to further degrading their workers' conditions and rights.
I stand to be corrected regarding all of the above of course.
With regards to trade unions, it was always the intention of the EU to make sure there would be no intra European ones. It does make it almost impossible to fight a company like Wizz air outside countries with strong legislation and unions.
And the steppingstone comment is, as mentioned by others, flawed. You could’ve argued there might be a way to Ezy or other real jobs before COVID and yes quite a lot of good Wizz air pilots did go that way. Now that route is completely closed for the foreseeable future and as Wizz competes on the same routes they are in effect destroying the next step up by accepting T&Cs that are at best half as good as other companies.
Fact is good conditions are disappearing and the direct reason for this is pilots accepting jobs on inferior T&Cs. I am fully aware though that some pilots feel there’s no choice as they’ve already invested everything to get to paid job in a jet. It’s not straight forward sadly.
What should be a straight forward choice is for young people to NOT sink their money and future into this business and ending up working for peanuts in Wizz air in few years having started training after COVID. It will get absolutely zero sympathy from anyone.
And the steppingstone comment is, as mentioned by others, flawed. You could’ve argued there might be a way to Ezy or other real jobs before COVID and yes quite a lot of good Wizz air pilots did go that way. Now that route is completely closed for the foreseeable future and as Wizz competes on the same routes they are in effect destroying the next step up by accepting T&Cs that are at best half as good as other companies.
Fact is good conditions are disappearing and the direct reason for this is pilots accepting jobs on inferior T&Cs. I am fully aware though that some pilots feel there’s no choice as they’ve already invested everything to get to paid job in a jet. It’s not straight forward sadly.
What should be a straight forward choice is for young people to NOT sink their money and future into this business and ending up working for peanuts in Wizz air in few years having started training after COVID. It will get absolutely zero sympathy from anyone.
Only half a speed-brake
Unicorns. Unions, whatever. Ain't gonna happen. Dreaming of weapons you do not have has but a single outcome, annihilation.
Fight with what you have and stop lying to one's self about self-perceived needs and requirements. France did it, blasted RYR out. Resulting in even the ill-famed TravelService offering 16k to summer contract captains.
No traffic rights unless the AOC holder has 85 % of pilot and cabin crew staff properly employed for at least 2 years prior. This can be made into a political thing and rightfully so, it's job protection for the local residents AND taxpayers. Possibly piggy-backed ontop the green agenda of allocating true cost to the business that consumes the resources. Make all pay their full own share and the leeches will fall off soon due to lack of unfair advantage.
But instead, we prefer to bitch about a jerk who dare to mention there might be bad apples and people abusing the sick-leave system. We stand united in resentment but not solutions.
Fight with what you have and stop lying to one's self about self-perceived needs and requirements. France did it, blasted RYR out. Resulting in even the ill-famed TravelService offering 16k to summer contract captains.
No traffic rights unless the AOC holder has 85 % of pilot and cabin crew staff properly employed for at least 2 years prior. This can be made into a political thing and rightfully so, it's job protection for the local residents AND taxpayers. Possibly piggy-backed ontop the green agenda of allocating true cost to the business that consumes the resources. Make all pay their full own share and the leeches will fall off soon due to lack of unfair advantage.
But instead, we prefer to bitch about a jerk who dare to mention there might be bad apples and people abusing the sick-leave system. We stand united in resentment but not solutions.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 9th May 2021 at 07:44.
Ryanair did leave MRS years ago but wouldn’t have gone anywhere without constant pressure from SNPL. Ryanair is now based in France and have french contracts supported by SNPL. (Maybe some Ryanair guys can confirm this for us?)Yes the T&Cs are not as good as certain competitors but it’s above board fro the most part. I promise you that would not have happened without strong union pressure. But sure your ideas are not bad either.
