Wizzair

[booze]

My 4 years in wzz was a very good experience, as i mentioned here before. Met some excellent people, learned a lot, but it was time to move on. Never in those 4 years i have witnessed or heard of any kind of bribing to get in to or stay in (after a failed check for example) the company. Believe me, whoever failed or got fired was due to always a very good reason, nothing personal, afaik. For failed pilots there was always a chance to retrain and recheck again, there was always a second chance, but of course some had a really ****ty attitude, and left like crybabies venting their frustration out about the company all over the show. On the other hand the company i recently flew for, due to their highly unionised nature, had some people who were impossible to get rid of, regardless their performance both in the box and on the line. I wouldn't say that not having a union at all is a good thing, but having one wagging the company like it's tail can have results like people getting upgraded solely due to their seniority and not merit, etc. Could also lead to bankruptcy if it is combined with management who are just simply not having a clue on what they are doing. On the taxing issue it really depends on your homebase and that specific country's double taxation treaty with Switzerland. In some countries it is perfectly legal to be on a local contract, paying social locally, but taxed on your income in Switzerland. In some countries it is not - wzz uk contract for example. Confair contractors are a different kettle of fish, of course. Not too sure on what's going on there, but it looked fishy to me from the beginning so i chose a local gig for my time with them. The bond back then was fairly straightforward as well: roughly 400 euros pm for 15 months and 3 months resignation notice. Left on good terms. Did flew 900 hrs or close to every year, most of the time didn't get vacation when i wanted but then i have never felt forced into accepting flights on off days or using commander's discretion. No questions asked afterwards if i didn't feel like extending. Getting a reference letter from hr was easy, from flt.ops not so much, but then they gave me one after a few emails exchanged. That's my 2 cents. Do i recommend them? Yes, bcoz of brilliant training, maintenance and excellent people i met and no, due to the ever changing roster, not getting vacation and ****ty bases (most of them).

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: As for me it actually matters because its totally different if you worked there and really know what you are talking about, or if you heard it from a friends, friend or read somewhere on a forum and come with stuff like "people bribe themselves through assessment at Wizz Air" because its actually not something nice to say about an airline or actually about any business if its not true.

As for the other things you are writing you are saying like if people who are members of a union have the monopoly on saying what is good or bad for all pilots all the time when very many pilots are not members in any union. Actually most pilots (or any other person no matter if its a doctor, programmer, lawyer.... you name it) who have more capitalistic political views will probably not be a member of any union. Now I do not wish to go off topic but this seems to be relevant to both Wizz Air and any other airline that offer self employment as companies. In Poland I believe you will find most pilots to prefer self employment and not think of it as a cancer but a great benefit just like pilots in Emirates for example probably think of it as benefit to pay low taxes and not a cancer.

Again I do not wish to go off topic but since most Wizz Air bases are in Eastern Europe then people there might be interested that their chances for low taxation will not be removed. Actually the EU is changing but not into more Strasbourg control but quite the opposite different nations wish to have some sovereignty left and deciding what tax system a nation want is definitely part of its national laws. As the situation is today anyway the EU can not dictate different nations what laws about taxes they shall have (they can just require a minimum value added tax to be uniform). And once again its not tax authorities in Poland that let some law get bent. It is THE LAW in Poland that you can perform a service to a company as another company and the law you are talking about was discussed in the parliament but not even voted about since it got discarded. So it is the law in Poland and neither LOT or Ryan Air are bending any laws in Poland. As for Wizz Air I do not know about Switzerland contracts but if they use the same contracts as LOT or Ryan Air then they are not bending anything but doing everything according to the law at least in Poland. The UK law or French law or German law is NOT the law in the whole EU its national law. And I believe this is relevant to any Wizz Air pilot or any other pilot getting a job in Eastern Europe to check the local laws (or consult a professional company for help they are just 300 PLN per month in Poland for example) and not get talked into that they are bending the law or will get a tax man at the door because its not true.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I am not saying people who wish to be employed instead of being employed as a company should not have such a possibility. They should definitely and also be able to make unions or whatever they desire so long as they do not force everyone on the same scheme. And Wizz Air is actually letting pilots choose by offering possibility to be employed as employee or be employed as a company. Pilots are free to choose. What I am saying all the time is that pilots should be free to CHOOSE whether they wish to be employed as an employee or as a company. Because you do realize that if airlines have to use more money on direct employment they will have less to pay as salary. So it should be up to the pilot to choose what kind of contract he wish and what suits him and his private life and desires in life. Not force everyone into the same scheme no matter what suits them best. Some, actually many people (just imagine how many EU national pilots choose to work outside of EU like for example in Emirates) wish to choose themselves and not have some union, state or politicians choose instead of them. I am definitely for pilots being able to have unions, employment contracts and everything they might wish personally, just skip the part of forcing everyone into the same scheme.

Either way EU commission is not in position to create national laws in member states actually even the EU parliament cannot force a state to adapt anything against its will (all the states must sign before something can be enforced). So once again according to law in UK, France, Germany etc. (I do not know if all those nation got equal labor laws) you are right and the law is probably bent and labor inspectorates can do something with it. But what I am trying to tell you is that neither Wizz Air, Ryan Air or LOT Polish Airlines are bending the Polish laws. Because in Poland the law is NOT the same as in UK or your reference nations. And probably in many other Eastern European nations the laws also differ and then telling people they bend the law and by this talking them into choosing financially worse terms is wrong. People should be aware of different laws in different EU states and its definitely relevant for Wizz Air since Wizz Air actually let pilots choose what kind of contract they prefer (of course it also goes the other way for example that pilots in UK should be aware of UK laws).

PS. For some people part of the joy of being a pilot is that it is NOT normal life with a desk job 8-16. So not everyone wish the same. Some people enjoy getting a overnight in a different base while others think its the worst thing. Why force everyone into one scheme?

[dirk85]

You don’t get to choose to have your company invoicing Wizzair or stuff like that.
Either way, with Confair or direct contract, you WILL have swiss taxes deducted from your salary, whether you like it or not, and it’s going to be you as a person to have a contract, not some company that you choose to set up.
It’s a take it or leave it kind of deal, zero bargaining power from your side: nobody is working for Wizzair the way you keep suggesting in the last 50 posts, and you are not going to be the first.

[KT1988]

@dirk85: Ok if you are sure about it (work there or are otherwise sure) then clearly Wizz Air got a different deal for pilots employed as a company than LOT or Ryan Air and it does therefore not look so good (I do not know Swiss law). I do then not understand why Wizz Air should not want to do the same as other airlines in countries where its legal to be employed as a company. In Poland its legal not only for pilots but for everyone from plumbers to doctors (at private clinics) so its not a pilot specific thing.

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: I know how it works in LOT (of course you fly when they need you to fly and not when you wish) you make a polish company and invoice a company that cooperate with LOT so I believed it worked the same for Wizz Air and Ryan Air in all nations with a law like Poland but maybe they like it more complicated I do not know. But then why make it complicated? But what you do clearly not know is that in Poland (and probably a lot other Eastern European nations) you are legally allowed to work for just one customer as a company. No matter if you are a plumber, doctor, carpenter.... you name it and also as a pilot. The parliament actually considered changing the law but it was scrapped and it remain as it is. Well either way its definitely on topic that people get to know they wont get such a national company deal with Wizz Air as they could expect if its true as you say.

I do again not wish to go off topic but I do really know ECA is an European organization but do you believe being an European organization gives someone power to decide about national laws of EU member states really? Every nation is only bound with the treaties they sign and EU is not forcing anyone to sign any more treaties its actually enough that one nation veto it and its not only Poland who wish to make their own national laws. So as I said it is legal both in Poland and many more nations in Eastern Europe to have only one customer. As for negotiating with customer you just described a negotiation: the customer says: I want it this way on those terms take it or leave it and you as a company decide if you take it or leave it.

PS. If someone is flying for a company for 5-10-20 years then he is probably captain by then with very many relevant flight hours. Then it should not be hard to immediately get another job on the type in an another airline as DEC having the experience. So getting a lower salary (it cost the airline more so they can pay less) and paying 32 % of your salary for 5-10-20 years just to have a slightly less risk of being fired? What about airlines going bankrupt who will refund the 5-10-20 years of paying 32 % (instead of much less than 19% after deduction) and getting a lower salary to those employed pilots? But of course everyone should be free to choose, thats what I am all about freedom of choice instead of a forced scheme by the state.

[flyster]

Originally Posted by A321drvr

Had enough of this crap also, reported them both.

Reporting frees the soul ...

[2unlimited]

It’s like talking to a rock.

[dirk85]

Originally Posted by KT1988

@dirk85: Ok if you are sure about it (work there or are otherwise sure) then clearly Wizz Air got a different deal for pilots employed as a company than LOT or Ryan Air and it does therefore not look so good (I do not know Swiss law). I do then not understand why Wizz Air should not want to do the same as other airlines in countries where its legal to be employed as a company. In Poland its legal not only for pilots but for everyone from plumbers to doctors (at private clinics) so its not a pilot specific thing.

I did work for them, and I am amazed at the amount of c**p you were able to write based on speculations and assumptions.

[BarryMG]

Guys, a few facts - from somebody living in Poland, working in Wizz, and familiar with self-employement regulations in Poland (although nobody seems to listen):
1. Bond in Wizz depends on your rank when you join - cadets get 4 years, 20k bond with 10k returned after it expires, experienced FO's get 3 years, 15k and 7,5k back after 36 months etc. Don't remember the details for skippers.
2. As I wrote before, this self-employment (setting your own company, providing invoices for flying, getting only 19% tax) is NOT legal in Poland, despite many people doing it (not only in aviation). Some time ago, the Polish Labour Inspectorate did an audit of LOT Crew and their bogus self-employment, the conclusion was simple - crews should be employed, not contractors, as they meet all the evidence of being employed by LOT (they only work for one airline, they cannot work for anybody else, they don't decide when, where and how they work - LOT does, they use LOT equipment etc.). But it continues, because the inspectorate lacks any means to enforce it. However, just last week there were news of the Polish government working on a solution to that, to be able to effectively challenge this bogus self-employment (because they lose a lot of tax money that way ofc).
At the moment there is no RYR in Poland - there is Ryanair Sun (soon to be renamed Buzz), which is a separate entity, separate AOC, separate work conditions from mainline RYR - and they use similiar setup as LOT (look up Warsaw Aviation agency).
3. Somebody mentioned sick leave - when you are employed in Poland, you don't just get basic pay then, you get 80% of your AVERAGE salary (including extras like sector pay, office duties, bonuses etc.) from last 3 months

[2unlimited]

Originally Posted by BarryMG

Guys, a few facts - from somebody living in Poland, working in Wizz, and familiar with self-employement regulations in Poland (although nobody seems to listen):
1. Bond in Wizz depends on your rank when you join - cadets get 4 years, 20k bond with 10k returned after it expires, experienced FO's get 3 years, 15k and 7,5k back after 36 months etc. Don't remember the details for skippers.
2. As I wrote before, this self-employment (setting your own company, providing invoices for flying, getting only 19% tax) is NOT legal in Poland, despite many people doing it (not only in aviation). Some time ago, the Polish Labour Inspectorate did an audit of LOT Crew and their bogus self-employment, the conclusion was simple - crews should be employed, not contractors, as they meet all the evidence of being employed by LOT (they only work for one airline, they cannot work for anybody else, they don't decide when, where and how they work - LOT does, they use LOT equipment etc.). But it continues, because the inspectorate lacks any means to enforce it. However, just last week there were news of the Polish government working on a solution to that, to be able to effectively challenge this bogus self-employment (because they lose a lot of tax money that way ofc).
At the moment there is no RYR in Poland - there is Ryanair Sun (soon to be renamed Buzz), which is a separate entity, separate AOC, separate work conditions from mainline RYR - and they use similiar setup as LOT (look up Warsaw Aviation agency).
3. Somebody mentioned sick leave - when you are employed in Poland, you don't just get basic pay then, you get 80% of your AVERAGE salary (including extras like sector pay, office duties, bonuses etc.) from last 3 months

Well said, but as you say some people refuse to listen.

The enforcement of this have been going slow, that’s why many people have been abusing the system, however the net is closing on this Bogus self employment contracts, and hopefully it will soon be gone from the business, the sooner the better.

[KT1988]

@BarryMG: I do not wish to again get off topic because this is about Wizz Air (but self employment in Eastern Europe is relevant) and I hope readers will forgive writing about LOT + Ryan Air Sun (that is Ryan Air with new name for Poland so you do not get some strange contracts through Ireland or Switzerland). But imagine Ryan Air Sun is to simple up things just like LOT does it, so Wizz Air will also eventually maybe skip Switzerland contracts when they find out they can do it the same way in most of Eastern Europe. And no Ryan Air did not create Ryan Air Sun because they wanted to something that is NOT legal as you imply about what LOT is doing.

Maybe some terms and conditions are not legal and that is what the inspectorate found, BUT the scheme with self employment for a single customer is 100 % legal and that is exactly why the parliament was looking upon the case and SCRAPPED IT because its not only about pilots its about maybe even millions of people working in Poland in all possible jobs (the government could pack their stuff if they did this before the election). Why on earth would the parliament discuss changing something if it was already illegal? The simple answer is that it is legal and professional bookkeeping companies (with lawyers after Polish law) will tell you the same that it IS LEGAL. And Ryan Air Sun is like a proof, why would Ryan Air create another company and do all the stuff to make it work like that if it was not legal?

@2unlimited: I sincerely believe you actually want pilots to get better terms and conditions and not wish to get them salary cuts in order to pay more taxes. So I believe our misunderstandings come from different mentality in the east and west. In the east people rather work more and earn more and its not so easy to get someone sick (statistically as for example in Norway). People have also another approach to spending vs saving money and even when average salary in Poland (in all professions) is lower, people actually own their homes and do have very little debt. Most rather save and invest than spend, and stuff like "consumption debt" almost do not happen. Just check the statistics for EU about debt on houses, flats and total private person debt. I do really not wish to litter Wizz Air topic with off topic answers for non related stuff you write about (like brexit) so maybe we should start a different thread: "Aviation jobs T&C, employment/self employment & national laws" so we can discuss freely without annoying people who do not wish to read the stuff we write?

[KT1988]

@2unlimited: In order to let the people only interested in Wizz Air (that is currently as I hear not offering Eastern Europe company contracts) have a clean thread. I have created a new thread so only people interested in T&C for all airlines and the general discussion about laws, salaries, terms and kinds of contracts will have to read it. As for EU member states do only need to follow what they have signed and accepted EU is currently not and will even less in the future try to force any country out of sovereignty. Lets not litter this thread any more.

[booze]

2unlimited and KT1988 it's the both of you who were ****ting allover this thread while having a pissing contest in the last couple of days, so how about both of you retracting and deleting all your comments and let the moderators clean up the rest of the mess?

[hid3]

Guys, it was mentioned multiple times that "working on your own" is bad because of short 3 months exit notice period.
May I ask what notice period do you expect?
Here in Lithuania when you're working under regular employment contract, as per law you get two weeks notice period. If you worked more than 5 years for the company, then it's one month. Of course, if you have small children, etc, for protected people the terms are double I think.

I don't see anything bad in 3 months notice period.
Besides, there's pilot shortage, isn't there? So in that case you'd be flooded with offers and probably already be sitting at another company within 3 weeks of time.

[flightbooking]

Originally Posted by booze

Do i recommend them? Yes, bcoz of brilliant training, maintenance and excellent people i met and no, due to the ever changing roster, not getting vacation and ****ty bases (most of them).

Regarding the vacations, the system changed recently, you can put in your requests for the whole year at the end of the previous one and the requested vacations are scored and approved in a semi-automatic manner. You can put in subsequent requests during the year but the earlier you do it the higher the chance you get them.
I personally got all the holidays I requested for this year, including 2x2 weeks during the summer and this is on a busy base. I am not saying that now everybody gets all the requested ones (especially during the busy periods ) but at least now there's a more fair/transparent system in place which gives pilots more chance to get those requested vacation days.

[2unlimited]

Originally Posted by flightbooking

Regarding the vacations, the system changed recently, you can put in your requests for the whole year at the end of the previous one and the requested vacations are scored and approved in a semi-automatic manner. You can put in subsequent requests during the year but the earlier you do it the higher the chance you get them.
I personally got all the holidays I requested for this year, including 2x2 weeks during the summer and this is on a busy base. I am not saying that now everybody gets all the requested ones (especially during the busy periods ) but at least now there's a more fair/transparent system in place which gives pilots more chance to get those requested vacation days.

But you need to book Leave / Vacation days, on days your already should have off, so you are being short changed for every vacation bid you make. That is really cheeky by the company, and I am surprised so many accepts this.

[flightbooking]

Originally Posted by Tomasz

Wizz destroyed Malev, and nearly destroyed LOT, time will tell if LOT will survive, as LOT at least are trying to do things the right way, giving their employees proper conditions, but Wizz are much the TC's of the whole industry towards the bottom.

That comment is wrong, LOT does not give there employees a proper contract for the last couple of years LOT has been giving there employees a self employment contract, no vacation pay, no sick, no liability insurance, no per dimes, remember thats a national airline, owned by the state. Wizzair is the only airline in Poland that offers a local contract, the rest Ryanair, Enter, LOT are self employment. Also for the type rating you can pay for or have it deducted from your pay for 3/4 years, and have half the money payed back after those years from the company. Correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t British airways starting charging there cadets 18000 pounds for a type rating, or Easyjet 35000 pounds. Were is the justification in the cost for those type ratings.

Even the first statement is wrong. Malev stayed a post socialist company as had never been trimmed to be able to operate effectively in a market economy. I feel sorry for it and its employees but this is the sad truth.
Wizz was just the last drop during Malev's agony but not the fundamental cause of its failure.

[Banana Joe]

So getting back to this, can a cadet FO on average expect 3.000/3.5000 euro NET after line check? Or is too optimistic and realistic only for SFO?
When do you upgrade to SFO? After the ATPL skills test?

[SoundLesS]

Originally Posted by Banana Joe

So getting back to this, can a cadet FO on average expect 3.000/3.5000 euro NET after line check? Or is too optimistic and realistic only for SFO?
When do you upgrade to SFO? After the ATPL skills test?

If you are not bonded then you can max receive about 3000 as JFO. SFO 3500 to 5000 depends on marriage etc.. Lowest as JFO I've seen, as bonded, is 1800 euros but average 2500e.