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Wizzair

Old 29th Apr 2019, 01:26
  #861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 4
@2unlimited: I know how it works in LOT (of course you fly when they need you to fly and not when you wish) you make a polish company and invoice a company that cooperate with LOT so I believed it worked the same for Wizz Air and Ryan Air in all nations with a law like Poland but maybe they like it more complicated I do not know. But then why make it complicated? But what you do clearly not know is that in Poland (and probably a lot other Eastern European nations) you are legally allowed to work for just one customer as a company. No matter if you are a plumber, doctor, carpenter.... you name it and also as a pilot. The parliament actually considered changing the law but it was scrapped and it remain as it is. Well either way its definitely on topic that people get to know they wont get such a national company deal with Wizz Air as they could expect if its true as you say.

I do again not wish to go off topic but I do really know ECA is an European organization but do you believe being an European organization gives someone power to decide about national laws of EU member states really? Every nation is only bound with the treaties they sign and EU is not forcing anyone to sign any more treaties its actually enough that one nation veto it and its not only Poland who wish to make their own national laws. So as I said it is legal both in Poland and many more nations in Eastern Europe to have only one customer. As for negotiating with customer you just described a negotiation: the customer says: I want it this way on those terms take it or leave it and you as a company decide if you take it or leave it.

PS. If someone is flying for a company for 5-10-20 years then he is probably captain by then with very many relevant flight hours. Then it should not be hard to immediately get another job on the type in an another airline as DEC having the experience. So getting a lower salary (it cost the airline more so they can pay less) and paying 32 % of your salary for 5-10-20 years just to have a slightly less risk of being fired? What about airlines going bankrupt who will refund the 5-10-20 years of paying 32 % (instead of much less than 19% after deduction) and getting a lower salary to those employed pilots? But of course everyone should be free to choose, thats what I am all about freedom of choice instead of a forced scheme by the state.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 06:17
  #862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by A321drvr View Post
Had enough of this crap also, reported them both.
Reporting frees the soul ...
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 06:27
  #863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,249
Itís like talking to a rock.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 08:10
  #864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by KT1988 View Post
@dirk85: Ok if you are sure about it (work there or are otherwise sure) then clearly Wizz Air got a different deal for pilots employed as a company than LOT or Ryan Air and it does therefore not look so good (I do not know Swiss law). I do then not understand why Wizz Air should not want to do the same as other airlines in countries where its legal to be employed as a company. In Poland its legal not only for pilots but for everyone from plumbers to doctors (at private clinics) so its not a pilot specific thing.
I did work for them, and I am amazed at the amount of c**p you were able to write based on speculations and assumptions.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 09:57
  #865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 36
Guys, a few facts - from somebody living in Poland, working in Wizz, and familiar with self-employement regulations in Poland (although nobody seems to listen):
1. Bond in Wizz depends on your rank when you join - cadets get 4 years, 20k bond with 10k returned after it expires, experienced FO's get 3 years, 15k and 7,5k back after 36 months etc. Don't remember the details for skippers.
2. As I wrote before, this self-employment (setting your own company, providing invoices for flying, getting only 19% tax) is NOT legal in Poland, despite many people doing it (not only in aviation). Some time ago, the Polish Labour Inspectorate did an audit of LOT Crew and their bogus self-employment, the conclusion was simple - crews should be employed, not contractors, as they meet all the evidence of being employed by LOT (they only work for one airline, they cannot work for anybody else, they don't decide when, where and how they work - LOT does, they use LOT equipment etc.). But it continues, because the inspectorate lacks any means to enforce it. However, just last week there were news of the Polish government working on a solution to that, to be able to effectively challenge this bogus self-employment (because they lose a lot of tax money that way ofc).
At the moment there is no RYR in Poland - there is Ryanair Sun (soon to be renamed Buzz), which is a separate entity, separate AOC, separate work conditions from mainline RYR - and they use similiar setup as LOT (look up Warsaw Aviation agency).
3. Somebody mentioned sick leave - when you are employed in Poland, you don't just get basic pay then, you get 80% of your AVERAGE salary (including extras like sector pay, office duties, bonuses etc.) from last 3 months
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 10:22
  #866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by BarryMG View Post
Guys, a few facts - from somebody living in Poland, working in Wizz, and familiar with self-employement regulations in Poland (although nobody seems to listen):
1. Bond in Wizz depends on your rank when you join - cadets get 4 years, 20k bond with 10k returned after it expires, experienced FO's get 3 years, 15k and 7,5k back after 36 months etc. Don't remember the details for skippers.
2. As I wrote before, this self-employment (setting your own company, providing invoices for flying, getting only 19% tax) is NOT legal in Poland, despite many people doing it (not only in aviation). Some time ago, the Polish Labour Inspectorate did an audit of LOT Crew and their bogus self-employment, the conclusion was simple - crews should be employed, not contractors, as they meet all the evidence of being employed by LOT (they only work for one airline, they cannot work for anybody else, they don't decide when, where and how they work - LOT does, they use LOT equipment etc.). But it continues, because the inspectorate lacks any means to enforce it. However, just last week there were news of the Polish government working on a solution to that, to be able to effectively challenge this bogus self-employment (because they lose a lot of tax money that way ofc).
At the moment there is no RYR in Poland - there is Ryanair Sun (soon to be renamed Buzz), which is a separate entity, separate AOC, separate work conditions from mainline RYR - and they use similiar setup as LOT (look up Warsaw Aviation agency).
3. Somebody mentioned sick leave - when you are employed in Poland, you don't just get basic pay then, you get 80% of your AVERAGE salary (including extras like sector pay, office duties, bonuses etc.) from last 3 months
Well said, but as you say some people refuse to listen.

The enforcement of this have been going slow, thatís why many people have been abusing the system, however the net is closing on this Bogus self employment contracts, and hopefully it will soon be gone from the business, the sooner the better.

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Old 29th Apr 2019, 10:39
  #867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 4
@BarryMG: I do not wish to again get off topic because this is about Wizz Air (but self employment in Eastern Europe is relevant) and I hope readers will forgive writing about LOT + Ryan Air Sun (that is Ryan Air with new name for Poland so you do not get some strange contracts through Ireland or Switzerland). But imagine Ryan Air Sun is to simple up things just like LOT does it, so Wizz Air will also eventually maybe skip Switzerland contracts when they find out they can do it the same way in most of Eastern Europe. And no Ryan Air did not create Ryan Air Sun because they wanted to something that is NOT legal as you imply about what LOT is doing.

Maybe some terms and conditions are not legal and that is what the inspectorate found, BUT the scheme with self employment for a single customer is 100 % legal and that is exactly why the parliament was looking upon the case and SCRAPPED IT because its not only about pilots its about maybe even millions of people working in Poland in all possible jobs (the government could pack their stuff if they did this before the election). Why on earth would the parliament discuss changing something if it was already illegal? The simple answer is that it is legal and professional bookkeeping companies (with lawyers after Polish law) will tell you the same that it IS LEGAL. And Ryan Air Sun is like a proof, why would Ryan Air create another company and do all the stuff to make it work like that if it was not legal?

@2unlimited: I sincerely believe you actually want pilots to get better terms and conditions and not wish to get them salary cuts in order to pay more taxes. So I believe our misunderstandings come from different mentality in the east and west. In the east people rather work more and earn more and its not so easy to get someone sick (statistically as for example in Norway). People have also another approach to spending vs saving money and even when average salary in Poland (in all professions) is lower, people actually own their homes and do have very little debt. Most rather save and invest than spend, and stuff like "consumption debt" almost do not happen. Just check the statistics for EU about debt on houses, flats and total private person debt. I do really not wish to litter Wizz Air topic with off topic answers for non related stuff you write about (like brexit) so maybe we should start a different thread: "Aviation jobs T&C, employment/self employment & national laws" so we can discuss freely without annoying people who do not wish to read the stuff we write?

Last edited by KT1988; 29th Apr 2019 at 10:54.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 11:29
  #868 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 4
@2unlimited: In order to let the people only interested in Wizz Air (that is currently as I hear not offering Eastern Europe company contracts) have a clean thread. I have created a new thread so only people interested in T&C for all airlines and the general discussion about laws, salaries, terms and kinds of contracts will have to read it. As for EU member states do only need to follow what they have signed and accepted EU is currently not and will even less in the future try to force any country out of sovereignty. Lets not litter this thread any more.
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Old 29th Apr 2019, 15:18
  #869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 154
2unlimited and KT1988 it's the both of you who were shitting allover this thread while having a pissing contest in the last couple of days, so how about both of you retracting and deleting all your comments and let the moderators clean up the rest of the mess?

Last edited by booze; 29th Apr 2019 at 15:38.
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Old 30th Apr 2019, 08:12
  #870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 52
Guys, it was mentioned multiple times that "working on your own" is bad because of short 3 months exit notice period.
May I ask what notice period do you expect?
Here in Lithuania when you're working under regular employment contract, as per law you get two weeks notice period. If you worked more than 5 years for the company, then it's one month. Of course, if you have small children, etc, for protected people the terms are double I think.

I don't see anything bad in 3 months notice period.
Besides, there's pilot shortage, isn't there? So in that case you'd be flooded with offers and probably already be sitting at another company within 3 weeks of time.
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Old 30th Apr 2019, 20:33
  #871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: all around
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by booze View Post
Do i recommend them? Yes, bcoz of brilliant training, maintenance and excellent people i met and no, due to the ever changing roster, not getting vacation and shitty bases (most of them).
Regarding the vacations, the system changed recently, you can put in your requests for the whole year at the end of the previous one and the requested vacations are scored and approved in a semi-automatic manner. You can put in subsequent requests during the year but the earlier you do it the higher the chance you get them.
I personally got all the holidays I requested for this year, including 2x2 weeks during the summer and this is on a busy base. I am not saying that now everybody gets all the requested ones (especially during the busy periods ) but at least now there's a more fair/transparent system in place which gives pilots more chance to get those requested vacation days.
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Old 30th Apr 2019, 20:36
  #872 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted by flightbooking View Post
Regarding the vacations, the system changed recently, you can put in your requests for the whole year at the end of the previous one and the requested vacations are scored and approved in a semi-automatic manner. You can put in subsequent requests during the year but the earlier you do it the higher the chance you get them.
I personally got all the holidays I requested for this year, including 2x2 weeks during the summer and this is on a busy base. I am not saying that now everybody gets all the requested ones (especially during the busy periods ) but at least now there's a more fair/transparent system in place which gives pilots more chance to get those requested vacation days.
But you need to book Leave / Vacation days, on days your already should have off, so you are being short changed for every vacation bid you make. That is really cheeky by the company, and I am surprised so many accepts this.
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Old 30th Apr 2019, 21:05
  #873 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: all around
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Tomasz View Post
Wizz destroyed Malev, and nearly destroyed LOT, time will tell if LOT will survive, as LOT at least are trying to do things the right way, giving their employees proper conditions, but Wizz are much the TC's of the whole industry towards the bottom.

That comment is wrong, LOT does not give there employees a proper contract for the last couple of years LOT has been giving there employees a self employment contract, no vacation pay, no sick, no liability insurance, no per dimes, remember thats a national airline, owned by the state. Wizzair is the only airline in Poland that offers a local contract, the rest Ryanair, Enter, LOT are self employment. Also for the type rating you can pay for or have it deducted from your pay for 3/4 years, and have half the money payed back after those years from the company. Correct me if Iím wrong but hasnít British airways starting charging there cadets 18000 pounds for a type rating, or Easyjet 35000 pounds. Were is the justification in the cost for those type ratings.

Even the first statement is wrong. Malev stayed a post socialist company as had never been trimmed to be able to operate effectively in a market economy. I feel sorry for it and its employees but this is the sad truth.
Wizz was just the last drop during Malev's agony but not the fundamental cause of its failure.
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Old 1st May 2019, 20:56
  #874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 4
So getting back to this, can a cadet FO on average expect 3.000/3.5000 euro NET after line check? Or is too optimistic and realistic only for SFO?
When do you upgrade to SFO? After the ATPL skills test?
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Old 1st May 2019, 21:07
  #875 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
So getting back to this, can a cadet FO on average expect 3.000/3.5000 euro NET after line check? Or is too optimistic and realistic only for SFO?
When do you upgrade to SFO? After the ATPL skills test?
If you are not bonded then you can max receive about 3000 as JFO. SFO 3500 to 5000 depends on marriage etc.. Lowest as JFO I've seen, as bonded, is 1800 euros but average 2500e.

Last edited by SoundLesS; 2nd May 2019 at 09:59.
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Old 1st May 2019, 21:46
  #876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 4
I understand the type rating bond is 48 months for a total of 20k. Is 20k also the cost if I pay upfront?
I recall it was 12k a year ago but I stand to be corrected.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 06:37
  #877 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: all around
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
So getting back to this, can a cadet FO on average expect 3.000/3.5000 euro NET after line check? Or is too optimistic and realistic only for SFO?
When do you upgrade to SFO? After the ATPL skills test?
You need 1500 hours factorized flight time to become an SFO. Wizz flight hours count as 1.0, SEP hours 0.3, MEP about 0.6 and so on.
Figures of SoundLesS are correct for the non bonded case. I am not sure about the latest deals, it used to be 15K for three years (don't remember the price of the TR, either 12 or 15K).
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:27
  #878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
I understand the type rating bond is 48 months for a total of 20k. Is 20k also the cost if I pay upfront?
I recall it was 12k a year ago but I stand to be corrected.
Come on, I just explained it a day before:

Originally Posted by BarryMG View Post
1. Bond in Wizz depends on your rank when you join - cadets get 4 years, 20k bond with 10k returned after it expires, experienced FO's get 3 years, 15k and 7,5k back after 36 months etc. Don't remember the details for skippers.
You also asked about money - over the last 12 months, with the new salary scheme in force, I think I averaged ~Ä3k net (some months it was almost 4, but never less than 2500), as a bonded SFO. As a cadet I would expect a figure closer to 2k, unless you go on random roster/floating/volunteer a lot for out of base.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 14:49
  #879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by BarryMG View Post
Come on, I just explained it a day before:
I actually missed that post!
It was in the middle of posts about creative finance and tax evasion! Sorry!
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Old 2nd May 2019, 18:56
  #880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 199
What are the junior bases assigned if given a job offer as an SFO?

Can you request a base and if so what are the chances of getting your choice especially something like Sibiu, Bucharest, Timisoara or Cluj in Romania as well as any other European bases?
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