easyJet DEC Gatwick?
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Lots of EZY FO whining continues.
Not relevant to speculate what the reaction of other airlines would have been. The point is, and one that no one in orange has answered, why do airline pilots think they are exempt from a practice that introduces experience to EVERY other industry in the world?
EZY have undoubtedly got lots of very capable FO's. Not the point. It is only in relatively recent times that LHS has been available in such a relatively short period of time. It would be foolish to miss out on acquiring a handful of very experienced pilots at the cost of delaying command to a handful of FO's for a relatively short period. You are not going to miss out, just wait a tiny bit longer.
I have never experienced such a bunch of me me me whinging in any of my comparatively wide experiences inside and outside of aviation. The MON captains that will appear in orange are highly experienced. As Enzo999 said earlier in the thread, some will be sitting behind you as well as alongside.
Not relevant to speculate what the reaction of other airlines would have been. The point is, and one that no one in orange has answered, why do airline pilots think they are exempt from a practice that introduces experience to EVERY other industry in the world?
EZY have undoubtedly got lots of very capable FO's. Not the point. It is only in relatively recent times that LHS has been available in such a relatively short period of time. It would be foolish to miss out on acquiring a handful of very experienced pilots at the cost of delaying command to a handful of FO's for a relatively short period. You are not going to miss out, just wait a tiny bit longer.
I have never experienced such a bunch of me me me whinging in any of my comparatively wide experiences inside and outside of aviation. The MON captains that will appear in orange are highly experienced. As Enzo999 said earlier in the thread, some will be sitting behind you as well as alongside.
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Ezy has enjoyed the benefit of droves and droves of new hires funding their own arrival, which has undoubtedly seen pressures on the other operators as a result of this workforce assisted salary induced reduction in staffing cost at the orange loco, The benefits to the company have been discussed ad finitum. The low cost model does depend heavily in paring costs down to an absolute minimum. This is manna nirvana to the accountant. Getting staff to invest in their own salary is quite a clever move if you can find those willing to invest in it.
However from a purely long term operational viewpoint considering diversity as an added stream of safety I guess is this approach of cadet heavy recruitment to such an extent and for such a time period, is also very short sighted. You can only surmise that some unbiased manager in ezy higher echelons has spotted the inherent weakness with the hiring practices.
Monarchs downturn maybe exactly the breath of fresh air that the orange bubble needs. A touch of diversity can inly add strength to the overall operation.
As posted above some of the more impatient "command ready SFOs"(who dont forget as we are all regularly reminded, are there early anyway for a pop at command... Or so the sales pitch goes) so just a short wait longer while the company allows itself to strengthen? Is this not important to all, including the SFOs in question-I can only guess its exactly this scenario of upset and clear feelings of being wronged that gives some, the understanding that ezy is awash with me-me-me merchants.
I have to agree about the outlook of some of the posters on here from within the bubble. Sort of adds weight to the arguement for diversity.
However from a purely long term operational viewpoint considering diversity as an added stream of safety I guess is this approach of cadet heavy recruitment to such an extent and for such a time period, is also very short sighted. You can only surmise that some unbiased manager in ezy higher echelons has spotted the inherent weakness with the hiring practices.
Monarchs downturn maybe exactly the breath of fresh air that the orange bubble needs. A touch of diversity can inly add strength to the overall operation.
As posted above some of the more impatient "command ready SFOs"(who dont forget as we are all regularly reminded, are there early anyway for a pop at command... Or so the sales pitch goes) so just a short wait longer while the company allows itself to strengthen? Is this not important to all, including the SFOs in question-I can only guess its exactly this scenario of upset and clear feelings of being wronged that gives some, the understanding that ezy is awash with me-me-me merchants.
I have to agree about the outlook of some of the posters on here from within the bubble. Sort of adds weight to the arguement for diversity.
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Alas you give recruitment management far too much much credit. This has zero to do with demographics or other. It's all about next summer. Nobody has seen the error of their ways. What they have seen is a summer 2015 schedule that they can't crew. Lots of issues coming home to roost here.
Easyjet hate the SFO rank, they believe it costs them too much because a 200hr guy does the same job (that's the opinion of the same team that will hire any DECs)
The job has got harder, the experience level has reduced, the network is bigger, the crewing levels are derived in fantasyland and the command failure rate has increased. What they need is some certainty because the margin for error is perilous. DECs bring more certainty and are quicker to train. They plug gaps that get exposed by an overly cost-centric recruitment policy. They are a quick fix and have been used intermittently for years. They are not the savior of easyJet but they will bring something to the party. Nothing wrong with that - so long as internal candidates get a fair shot too. Yes some of our guys have a misplaced sense of entitlement but for every one of them there are at least 2 conscientious, hard working, potential future a captains waiting patiently for their turn.
Easyjet hate the SFO rank, they believe it costs them too much because a 200hr guy does the same job (that's the opinion of the same team that will hire any DECs)
The job has got harder, the experience level has reduced, the network is bigger, the crewing levels are derived in fantasyland and the command failure rate has increased. What they need is some certainty because the margin for error is perilous. DECs bring more certainty and are quicker to train. They plug gaps that get exposed by an overly cost-centric recruitment policy. They are a quick fix and have been used intermittently for years. They are not the savior of easyJet but they will bring something to the party. Nothing wrong with that - so long as internal candidates get a fair shot too. Yes some of our guys have a misplaced sense of entitlement but for every one of them there are at least 2 conscientious, hard working, potential future a captains waiting patiently for their turn.
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Jaxo I'm not whinning. Just pointing out that if Monarch were recruiting DEC then I'm sure there would be quite a strong voice from the crew there.
Unfortunately I think Thad has hit the nail on the head. It's all about cost. "Have to remain competitive"
Unfortunately I think Thad has hit the nail on the head. It's all about cost. "Have to remain competitive"
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I will never stress strongly enough how blissful I feel realising what a great move I made changing jobs and industries. I listen and read most people here. This job has turned into a farce cast by semi-tramps ready to sell any part of their anatomy for a job, exploited but never willing to fight for their own good and conditions. This population of pilots has turned into a hord of scared puppies with no guts.
Forget it...
Forget it...
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All I'm reading is self-entitled whinging Monarch guys calling EZY FO's self-entitled whiners for daring to speak up about DEC's.
If it was the other way around, you most certainly would be asking questions as well.
Hasn't a significant portion of Monarch recruitment over the years also been from CTC? Yet somehow we are supposed to be grateful for your incredible experience which I'm guessing is remarkably similar to that currently in easyJet.
Over a career, a year delay on command won't make a huge difference to those affected - Although 40 years of compound interest may prove significant. My point earlier was that this should have been avoided by better forward planning.
If we need the bums on seats to cover next summer then fair enough. However it's arrogant to suggest any other reason for the opportunity presented.
If it was the other way around, you most certainly would be asking questions as well.
Hasn't a significant portion of Monarch recruitment over the years also been from CTC? Yet somehow we are supposed to be grateful for your incredible experience which I'm guessing is remarkably similar to that currently in easyJet.
Over a career, a year delay on command won't make a huge difference to those affected - Although 40 years of compound interest may prove significant. My point earlier was that this should have been avoided by better forward planning.
If we need the bums on seats to cover next summer then fair enough. However it's arrogant to suggest any other reason for the opportunity presented.
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Xulu
Hasn't a significant portion of Monarch recruitment over the years also been from CTC? Yet somehow we are supposed to be grateful for your incredible experience which I'm guessing is remarkably similar to that currently in easyJet.
Answer. No.
And this thread relates to captains. Only two, and relatively recently, that I know of. Most were captains before CTC existed.
Hasn't a significant portion of Monarch recruitment over the years also been from CTC? Yet somehow we are supposed to be grateful for your incredible experience which I'm guessing is remarkably similar to that currently in easyJet.
Answer. No.
And this thread relates to captains. Only two, and relatively recently, that I know of. Most were captains before CTC existed.
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Because John_Smith total reliance on intra company seniority is stupid and has disappeared in the rest of the world of industry some time ago. To expect a senior captain to slot in at the bottom of a seniority list of expectant first officers is a ridiculous expectation. And by the way, "loads" of monarch captains is an exaggeration. It will be a handful. The numbers quoted earlier in this thread were there to wind up some participants.
This whole issue needs to be put into perspective. Inter company movement of pilots is healthy for both airlines and pilots. To effectively eliminate it except in the event of company failure is bonkers and not in the best interests of anyone. What you are saying is effectively you are stuck with the company you join after CTC for ever unless you are prepared to go to the bottom and start again. Does not happen anywhere else and it is madness that the concept still exists in airlines. Seniority lists have been sold to you as a great idea by the airlines at this juncture because it suits them at the moment to drive down costs. If there was free competition (like the rest of the business world) then maybe we would not be seeing such an erosion.
This whole issue needs to be put into perspective. Inter company movement of pilots is healthy for both airlines and pilots. To effectively eliminate it except in the event of company failure is bonkers and not in the best interests of anyone. What you are saying is effectively you are stuck with the company you join after CTC for ever unless you are prepared to go to the bottom and start again. Does not happen anywhere else and it is madness that the concept still exists in airlines. Seniority lists have been sold to you as a great idea by the airlines at this juncture because it suits them at the moment to drive down costs. If there was free competition (like the rest of the business world) then maybe we would not be seeing such an erosion.
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JaxofMarlow your argument doesn't really hold water I'm afraid. The point is there ARE seniority lists within the airline industry and whilst everything is governed by these lists such as leave/promotions/base moves/days off etc then you are always going to have opposition, and quite right too. If I was command ready in lets say LGW and the company recruits a DEC instead of promoting me then I'd be spitting and so would you. You put forward some valid points but until these lists are removed industry wide you can want it as much as you like but this sort of argument will never go away.
You also haven't given any substance behind your notion that it's "bonkers to eliminate movement and it's in the best interests of companies and pilots". I can only see that it's in the best interest of the company short term as it saves costs, but also in that short term you'll have a number of p****d off pilots who have been stepped over (not healthy for the company) it's in the best interest of ONLY the DEC. So please tell me/us how it's healthy for the company and healthy for pilots in general.
You also haven't given any substance behind your notion that it's "bonkers to eliminate movement and it's in the best interests of companies and pilots". I can only see that it's in the best interest of the company short term as it saves costs, but also in that short term you'll have a number of p****d off pilots who have been stepped over (not healthy for the company) it's in the best interest of ONLY the DEC. So please tell me/us how it's healthy for the company and healthy for pilots in general.
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Why don't all the command ready FOs get together and offer to accept a lower salary in exchange for command. Maybe 68k a year would be fair, I bet Easy would soon find the capacity to train you then.
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Lex
1) Insufficient training capacity.
2) SFO's offered Commands at OPO/AMS on inferior contracts not prepared to go.
3) Euro based SFO's not prepared to go to LGW and live away from Family as
Commuters on what almost amounts to a pay cut.
4) Northern based SFO's baulking at moving down South for similar reasons.
5) A smattering of course failures.
1) Insufficient training capacity.
2) SFO's offered Commands at OPO/AMS on inferior contracts not prepared to go.
3) Euro based SFO's not prepared to go to LGW and live away from Family as
Commuters on what almost amounts to a pay cut.
4) Northern based SFO's baulking at moving down South for similar reasons.
5) A smattering of course failures.
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So the majority of argument in favour of Seniority lists for command is because "it is the way it is". Notwithstanding that every other industry has a blended approach thus benefiting from free movement of resource from other companies as well as promoting talent from within.
There is regular reference to "my LHS". It is not your left hand seat until someone has granted it to you. The attitude that because you have paid for your CTC entry into one of the few growing airlines you have an automatic right to promotion once you have completed a few thousand hours is clearly incompatible with a healthy industry.
My issue is with Seniority lists for promotion being the only route to command. The behaviours it engenders are divisive and are clearly visible in many posts here. Acceptance of a blended approach would be healthy for all. It is everywhere else outside of aviation. Blind acceptance of this in the face of the overwhelming evidence from every industry outside of aviation is the root of the problem. Most telling is a comment above…..It's ridiculous, but that's the way it is in aviation. Until we get rid of seniority as a concept (and I would vote for that tomorrow) the expectation is, and has always been, that a senior captain leaving one airline will slot in at the bottom of the seniority list. For those that think that this archaic process is anything but ridiculous then I give up and there is no hope for this industry.
There is regular reference to "my LHS". It is not your left hand seat until someone has granted it to you. The attitude that because you have paid for your CTC entry into one of the few growing airlines you have an automatic right to promotion once you have completed a few thousand hours is clearly incompatible with a healthy industry.
My issue is with Seniority lists for promotion being the only route to command. The behaviours it engenders are divisive and are clearly visible in many posts here. Acceptance of a blended approach would be healthy for all. It is everywhere else outside of aviation. Blind acceptance of this in the face of the overwhelming evidence from every industry outside of aviation is the root of the problem. Most telling is a comment above…..It's ridiculous, but that's the way it is in aviation. Until we get rid of seniority as a concept (and I would vote for that tomorrow) the expectation is, and has always been, that a senior captain leaving one airline will slot in at the bottom of the seniority list. For those that think that this archaic process is anything but ridiculous then I give up and there is no hope for this industry.
Command ready does not mean that they will pass the course, merely that they have the minimum hours and licence requirement and have gone though the preliminary stages. There is, I believe a significant failure rate; hence the perception that taking in DEC will reduce the training capacity needed to get commanders online before next summer.
I can see the argument from both sides. If there is controlled recruitment of DEC it could be beneficial: provided they have to reach the same standards and it is not assumed that because they are already Monarch captains they are somehow better, and they are not given preference to base above easy FO's. A limited number of experienced DEC could help the experience inbalance but too many will allienate the existing workforce.
For those who do come I trust you will quickly embrace the orange culture and understand and accept the views of those FO's who perceive you have jumped the queue and taken their place; if so I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms.
I can see the argument from both sides. If there is controlled recruitment of DEC it could be beneficial: provided they have to reach the same standards and it is not assumed that because they are already Monarch captains they are somehow better, and they are not given preference to base above easy FO's. A limited number of experienced DEC could help the experience inbalance but too many will allienate the existing workforce.
For those who do come I trust you will quickly embrace the orange culture and understand and accept the views of those FO's who perceive you have jumped the queue and taken their place; if so I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms.
speak.
