Monarch in turbulence
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My best take is that Monarch probably has less than a 10% chance of lasting as an independent brand, life span 3 months to two years. More likely than not that PWC will be involved before xmas if any external factor such as high oil price spike, Iceland volcano comes into play
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 72
Posts: 511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The guessing of the future of Monarch whether good or bad is just speculation, nothing more.
Having worked for them for just over nine years, I always thought the airline was a survivor. For those with Monarch of which a few are old friends, I hope the airline survives these troubled times.
Having worked for them for just over nine years, I always thought the airline was a survivor. For those with Monarch of which a few are old friends, I hope the airline survives these troubled times.
Moderator
In my experience, pilots are the best people in the world to manage a crisis, but when it comes to relationships and choosing jobs they are pretty dire! What we can learn from this crisis is that no airline has a divine right to exist. The bottom line is that money-in must exceed money-out - if over a whole year your airline is not making a profit, however, small, you need to start worrying. If it happens a second time, you need to be very worried. There are always exceptions like Alitalia, who are perpetually baled-out by their even more skint government, but even they have tottered on the brink and kicked out numerous pilots.
PPRuNe does not enjoy a reputation for rational discussion, and many who contribute here write utter tosh. For those of you criticising the likes of Black and Brown, Wee Weasley Welshman and previously Alexander de Meerkat, take a look back at what they wrote and work out if what they were right in the light of subsequent events. I would humbly suggest that the three contributors mentioned have proven to be extremely accurate over a long period of time. You may have been offended at what they say but, love them or hate them, they have been proven right when many others were wrong. Perhaps their contributions are of significantly more value here than they are currently being given credence for.
PPRuNe does not enjoy a reputation for rational discussion, and many who contribute here write utter tosh. For those of you criticising the likes of Black and Brown, Wee Weasley Welshman and previously Alexander de Meerkat, take a look back at what they wrote and work out if what they were right in the light of subsequent events. I would humbly suggest that the three contributors mentioned have proven to be extremely accurate over a long period of time. You may have been offended at what they say but, love them or hate them, they have been proven right when many others were wrong. Perhaps their contributions are of significantly more value here than they are currently being given credence for.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you Count of Monte Bisto. Without wishing to gloat, I wasn't wrong about BA either was I? Except they won't go bust - their Ts and Cs will end out the same as the rest of us, with lesser frills, more work and literally five times the wait for a command. Whatever floats your boat.
MON are done, make your plans now so you aren't killed in the rush. And the winter is to come......better hope it's not too icy or snowy.
MON are done, make your plans now so you aren't killed in the rush. And the winter is to come......better hope it's not too icy or snowy.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Count of Monty Bisto
My feelings about Monarch came very much from seeing how shocking they were with customer service and on time performance at LGW, were further reenforced by stories from pilots who work there, gloating of shortish two sector days, lots of standby and extra money for doing anything beyond what was rostered, lax control of expense claims during ground training, one quote ' we don't bother looking at anything under £1k'
I posted 6+ months ago that they were being squeezed in LGW by Norwegian and in the North by Jet2, they have over relied on a loyal but aged customer base and are moving to a model that brings them into the firing line of Easyjet/Ryanair at a time when according to Travel Mole website today the number of holiday's taken is down and package tours up!!!
They promoted the change to non reclining seats, when the real issue was lack of leg room, finally they must have endless amounts of management time on (not) deciding on a new fleet order since October last year, only to announce a move to Boeing 2 weeks before the family called time on the whole airline.
I posted 6+ months ago that they were being squeezed in LGW by Norwegian and in the North by Jet2, they have over relied on a loyal but aged customer base and are moving to a model that brings them into the firing line of Easyjet/Ryanair at a time when according to Travel Mole website today the number of holiday's taken is down and package tours up!!!
They promoted the change to non reclining seats, when the real issue was lack of leg room, finally they must have endless amounts of management time on (not) deciding on a new fleet order since October last year, only to announce a move to Boeing 2 weeks before the family called time on the whole airline.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The change in T&Cs for new joiners, the lack of real opportunities in the UK coupled with seniority mean that for most the answer is to sit tight.
That is what is still happening now with people only too willing to accept large cuts in exchange for no guarantees.
That is what is still happening now with people only too willing to accept large cuts in exchange for no guarantees.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LNIDA, yes OTP at LGW has been shocking because of a certain handling agent that will soon be ditched, and which is not a problem confined to Monarch. Average sector length is significantly longer than e.g. EZ or FR so two sectors are the norm for the moment but this could change.
The only extra money is for working days off and as for "lax expense claims for ground training" this is utter rubbish - pilots get nothing extra for ground duties at home base and normal day/voyage rate if at another base - they don't even claim via the expenses system for ground duties as this is done via the rostering system!
A "loyal but aged" customer base - what so older people's money is somehow worth less on the balance sheet? The older generation appreciate Monarch's customer service as they don't like being treated like cattle.
Monarch started moving to a scheduled model over 10 years ago and have been competing with easy and Ryanair all of that time, very successfully on their core routes.
Non-reclining lightweight seats have extra legroom built-in because of the thickness of the seat itself and are much preferred by passengers as the seat in front does not recline (I believe a recent survey showed that 95% of passengers don't like reclining seats). They also give a much more spacious cabin as on single aisle aircraft passengers can walk past trolleys and the iPad/tablet holders they contain are very popular with passengers accessing the in-flight Wi-Fi or just doing their own thing on their own devices - of course the seats also save considerable weight and thus fuel.
The Boeing deal, which will soon be signed, was significantly better, all things considered, than what Airbus were offering.
FANS, not sure what you mean by the "change of Ts and Cs for new joiners". Following the recently agreed changes with the union, all Monarch pilots will be on the same contract.
The only extra money is for working days off and as for "lax expense claims for ground training" this is utter rubbish - pilots get nothing extra for ground duties at home base and normal day/voyage rate if at another base - they don't even claim via the expenses system for ground duties as this is done via the rostering system!
A "loyal but aged" customer base - what so older people's money is somehow worth less on the balance sheet? The older generation appreciate Monarch's customer service as they don't like being treated like cattle.
Monarch started moving to a scheduled model over 10 years ago and have been competing with easy and Ryanair all of that time, very successfully on their core routes.
Non-reclining lightweight seats have extra legroom built-in because of the thickness of the seat itself and are much preferred by passengers as the seat in front does not recline (I believe a recent survey showed that 95% of passengers don't like reclining seats). They also give a much more spacious cabin as on single aisle aircraft passengers can walk past trolleys and the iPad/tablet holders they contain are very popular with passengers accessing the in-flight Wi-Fi or just doing their own thing on their own devices - of course the seats also save considerable weight and thus fuel.
The Boeing deal, which will soon be signed, was significantly better, all things considered, than what Airbus were offering.
FANS, not sure what you mean by the "change of Ts and Cs for new joiners". Following the recently agreed changes with the union, all Monarch pilots will be on the same contract.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work for neither Monarch , easy or Ryanair but have used all in order to commute around Europe .
I find Monarch to be inferior both with regards to aircraft , OTP & customer service . Thompsons & Thomas Cook outclass them in the holiday sector; easyJet & the like are light years ahead in the low cost sector.
The employees can keep telling us what a great Airline it is but the customers have spoken & 'The Monarch' has had its day .
I find Monarch to be inferior both with regards to aircraft , OTP & customer service . Thompsons & Thomas Cook outclass them in the holiday sector; easyJet & the like are light years ahead in the low cost sector.
The employees can keep telling us what a great Airline it is but the customers have spoken & 'The Monarch' has had its day .
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rushed approach alas your argument has two fatal flaws.
1. Over the last 10 years you have not been able to compete with the low costs.
2. You do not have a loyal customer base of any generation.
That is why Monarch is in the difficult position it is in. As for new aircraft orders......
I personally would prefer to have more competitors as this will help arrest the ever decreasing T & Cs but Monarch will not be one of them. A great pity I know some pilots with them who deserve better.
1. Over the last 10 years you have not been able to compete with the low costs.
2. You do not have a loyal customer base of any generation.
That is why Monarch is in the difficult position it is in. As for new aircraft orders......
I personally would prefer to have more competitors as this will help arrest the ever decreasing T & Cs but Monarch will not be one of them. A great pity I know some pilots with them who deserve better.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rushed approach
Of course aged money is the same value, but they die........eventually
Yes people don't like reclining seats because it infringes their personal space, but if you cram extra seats your back to square one.
The expense money i'm talking about is ground school during training
How many Monarch aircraft have free inflight wifi installed?
There will be no deal signed with Boeing until and if funding is sorted 50/50 of that happening, if it weren't for the reported £70m dowry being offered i think i would game over.
Wish them well but head in sand helps no one
Yes people don't like reclining seats because it infringes their personal space, but if you cram extra seats your back to square one.
The expense money i'm talking about is ground school during training
How many Monarch aircraft have free inflight wifi installed?
There will be no deal signed with Boeing until and if funding is sorted 50/50 of that happening, if it weren't for the reported £70m dowry being offered i think i would game over.
Wish them well but head in sand helps no one
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 64
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A Company can turn over as much as you want, but if they don't make a profit, it means nowt!
On the contrary, your point highlights how fragile the deck of cards is at monarch. A billion turn over yet they need an annual injection of over 100 million to survive! Errrrrr..........
On the contrary, your point highlights how fragile the deck of cards is at monarch. A billion turn over yet they need an annual injection of over 100 million to survive! Errrrrr..........
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But it did make a profit.
The auditors signed it off as a going concern.
Its engineering business is interesting.
ATOL are satisfied.
New investors are looking to put funds in.
Yes - it could go bust, but there is value there especially if the pilots will accept the paycut for no upside.
The auditors signed it off as a going concern.
Its engineering business is interesting.
ATOL are satisfied.
New investors are looking to put funds in.
Yes - it could go bust, but there is value there especially if the pilots will accept the paycut for no upside.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest report this afternoon is that the family will not pay any dowry or resolve the pension shortfall, only that they will delivery the business in an agreed state??
quote
However, Greybull Capital’s involvement in refinancing the airline is likely to prove contentious - the investment firm was involved in the collapse of Comet, the electrical chain, two years ago.
Monarch revealed this morning that it is in advanced talks towards a takeover by Greybull which will assume control of the business from Switzerland’s wealthy Mantegazza family, who are exiting. Greybull will inject funds through a convertible loan, which will turn into equity if a turnaround plan is successful.
I wish them well, but the only long term value i see is the engineering business, trying to take on Easyjet/Ryanair is a mugs game when you are a minnow and moving from your own turf into their's, yep its a well known brand but so Comet, certain irony in the Comet name......
quote
However, Greybull Capital’s involvement in refinancing the airline is likely to prove contentious - the investment firm was involved in the collapse of Comet, the electrical chain, two years ago.
Monarch revealed this morning that it is in advanced talks towards a takeover by Greybull which will assume control of the business from Switzerland’s wealthy Mantegazza family, who are exiting. Greybull will inject funds through a convertible loan, which will turn into equity if a turnaround plan is successful.
I wish them well, but the only long term value i see is the engineering business, trying to take on Easyjet/Ryanair is a mugs game when you are a minnow and moving from your own turf into their's, yep its a well known brand but so Comet, certain irony in the Comet name......