Monarch in turbulence
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The youngsters will be ok , the people we should be looking after are the more senior guys who haven't got time to rebuild their pensions , can't move their families to the middle east & need to pay the mortgage & school fees.
Would those guys at easy put the pressure on their management to soak up experienced crews from Monarch should a buyout be unsuccessful & help the industry return to respecting people's long term commitment as opposed to accelerating the deterioration into a 'job' many of us find less & less palatable .
Would those guys at easy put the pressure on their management to soak up experienced crews from Monarch should a buyout be unsuccessful & help the industry return to respecting people's long term commitment as opposed to accelerating the deterioration into a 'job' many of us find less & less palatable .
In my experience at Monarch, the ex easy F/O's have, without exception been well trained, competent and professional. I have not heard complaints from anyone else either.
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ZeBedie - no one has ever questioned their competency have they?
Their shortcomings relate to their attitude and lack of life skills/maturity, witnessed by the many posters on here.
Hopefully many will read this thread and reflect.
Their shortcomings relate to their attitude and lack of life skills/maturity, witnessed by the many posters on here.
Hopefully many will read this thread and reflect.
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Grass is always green
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........
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Whilst I am sure that many of the points being raised about ex-easyJet First officers (that is what the are/where, they ceased to be Cadets once employed just as a Captain ceases to be a first officer on promotion) are indeed valid, there is a time and a place to bring these to the fore and this is not it. Only a bitter, gloating or I told you so attitude would lead anyone to post this kind of thought on this thread.
As has been highlighted on numerous occasions, these people are facing losing their livelihoods, many with mortgages to pay and young families to support. I suspect that most of the negative posters were never in a similar position to some of the FO's that left easy for Monarch. Whilst I could never condone the level of unprofessionalism being described, I'm sure most would agree that the terms these guys were working under we're terrible and most had no choice.
A commonly used phrase is that attitude reflects leadership. In my time at easy, I seem to remember a high degree of negativity been prevalent throughout. Was there not a survey that revealed that morale was potentially destructive to the business. I flew with captains who's attitude towards the company bordered on the unprofessional, (anyone remember flap full Fridays?) is it any wonder that some of the guys at the bottom being shafted the most should show a degree of dissent.
I regret that I have been drawn into this debate, however that the thread has been hijacked in such a way as to stick it to guys who left easyJet feeling they were bettering themselves, but now find themselves in a dire situation, is plain wrong and there are experienced people that should know better, who should be ashamed of themselves. Yes some guys may have been immature, arrogant or even unprofessional, but now is neither the time or the place to be saying I told you so.
Let's ditch the thread creep and the sniping and get back to the topic in hand.
Good luck to all
As has been highlighted on numerous occasions, these people are facing losing their livelihoods, many with mortgages to pay and young families to support. I suspect that most of the negative posters were never in a similar position to some of the FO's that left easy for Monarch. Whilst I could never condone the level of unprofessionalism being described, I'm sure most would agree that the terms these guys were working under we're terrible and most had no choice.
A commonly used phrase is that attitude reflects leadership. In my time at easy, I seem to remember a high degree of negativity been prevalent throughout. Was there not a survey that revealed that morale was potentially destructive to the business. I flew with captains who's attitude towards the company bordered on the unprofessional, (anyone remember flap full Fridays?) is it any wonder that some of the guys at the bottom being shafted the most should show a degree of dissent.
I regret that I have been drawn into this debate, however that the thread has been hijacked in such a way as to stick it to guys who left easyJet feeling they were bettering themselves, but now find themselves in a dire situation, is plain wrong and there are experienced people that should know better, who should be ashamed of themselves. Yes some guys may have been immature, arrogant or even unprofessional, but now is neither the time or the place to be saying I told you so.
Let's ditch the thread creep and the sniping and get back to the topic in hand.
Good luck to all
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They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
As for working on days off for nothing for the love of flying, please....
Airlines get what they deserve in terms of loyalty and crew morale. Cook up
zero hour contracts and don't offer basics such as sick pay and pension to new starters and they will behave accordingly.
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MaxPower2011 - this is not a pity party and it is exactly the right place to discuss these issues. Very poor decisions were made, and in order to prevent the repeat of those it is important to highlight what actually happened. I too feel extremely sorry for the more experienced Monarch guys who are now facing a very uncertain future. Nonetheless, there will be jobs through companies like easyJet and Norwegian Air Services for many of them. In truth they will probably never have the same terms and conditions again, but that is life. I wish them well.
Monarch Difficulties
I have just seen a great video clip on Facebook, (likely on you Tube as well), showing 3 Monarch 757s at Skiathos. Very impressive indeed & show just what Monarch has done in the past, is doing at present & will continue to do so in the future. If I was in the chair, I would have this video clip avertising Monarch, on every TV station possible!!!
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Max power 2011
You seem to miss the point. Just because you have the cash to buy everything you want does not make you a competent pilot. Many of these guys who left ezy complaining about the company are the reasons why the T&C in the industry have deteriated then they have the audacity to bite the hand that feeds them.
I would suggest they find alternative lines of employment and find out what the real world is like,there characters are not conducive to flying, quite frankly during there latter stages they were another hole in the cheese.
You seem to miss the point. Just because you have the cash to buy everything you want does not make you a competent pilot. Many of these guys who left ezy complaining about the company are the reasons why the T&C in the industry have deteriated then they have the audacity to bite the hand that feeds them.
I would suggest they find alternative lines of employment and find out what the real world is like,there characters are not conducive to flying, quite frankly during there latter stages they were another hole in the cheese.
Grass is always green
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........
Your last sentence reveals this shift in attitude. If airlines want to keep flight crew at arms length, essentially sub contractors, then the rise of the "Me Inc." attitude is the result. I've come up via a similar route to that which you describe. It has never been valued by an airline. The airlines are reaping what they sow.
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I've been taking quiet pride but now people are justifying their positions and still slating easy I have to say 'I told you so', 9th June 2012:
Taken from the thread:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-anyone-4.html
Where's poster Bealzebub now? Busy working for the 'other' company with 3 letters?
Sorry for the families and people affected by this company's potential demise. It's my opinion that it'll be gone in 3 years - maximum.
Monarch are expanding to:
1. Compete against easyjet at LGW, MAN and LTN - our 3 biggest UK bases, where they have lesser economies of scale, higher crew costs, less diversification (business/leisure route mix), older, more fuel hungry, more maintainance hungry aircraft and a lesser known brand.
2. Take up routes/ slots that previously failed for an airline that had the backing of one of the biggest most successful airlines in the world and couldn't be given away.
3. Monarch as a brand could never enter the lucrative business market so they are expanding on high risk leisure routes which have a more target rich focus.
So all the altruism, great blokes, lack of complaints, lack of tiredness and wonderful union representation in the world isn't going to prevent the inevitable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, raise your chin and look ahead.
1. Compete against easyjet at LGW, MAN and LTN - our 3 biggest UK bases, where they have lesser economies of scale, higher crew costs, less diversification (business/leisure route mix), older, more fuel hungry, more maintainance hungry aircraft and a lesser known brand.
2. Take up routes/ slots that previously failed for an airline that had the backing of one of the biggest most successful airlines in the world and couldn't be given away.
3. Monarch as a brand could never enter the lucrative business market so they are expanding on high risk leisure routes which have a more target rich focus.
So all the altruism, great blokes, lack of complaints, lack of tiredness and wonderful union representation in the world isn't going to prevent the inevitable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, raise your chin and look ahead.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-anyone-4.html
Where's poster Bealzebub now? Busy working for the 'other' company with 3 letters?
Sorry for the families and people affected by this company's potential demise. It's my opinion that it'll be gone in 3 years - maximum.
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The bigger problem is the change of the industry from one of numerous companies that had half an eye on looking out for its employees (including flight crew) to one where these companies are slowly but surely been devoured in the UK and Europe by the uber efficient money making loco machines.
During the expansion of the locos many companies have gone under, and many opportunities have been missed by the locos to employ those affected by the going out of business of these companies, guys with a good track record, good people skills, good life skills. Strengths, that if certain infos on this very thread are to be believed, are sadly missing in some quarters
Experienced guys either out of work on the scrapheap, and further across the food chain stuck as TP capt, as career progression to the "plumb jet jobs" hardly exists
It is incredibly ironic that those who by the very path they elected to take, and some would argue "jump the queue by chequebook" via certain ftos and loco carriers have affected the industry as a whole for everybody, now have taken the lions share of this thread due in main to the fact that they are now experienced and hence no longer of recruitment interest to the market they helped create. And also taking the thread focus from the problems of the company and the workforce as a whole and turned it into a me me me fest.
Hopefully the decent operators out there extend the olive branch to the innocents caught up in Monarchs current situation, failing that the locos can see past the usual modus operandi of majority of cadet only recruitment and give a break to innocent bystanders, and on relevant and suitable contracts.
Hopefully Monarch survive this loco led domination, Thomas Cook another decent operator had their wings checked a few years ago, but just about survived. Hopefully for the sake of the industry Monarch manage the same
During the expansion of the locos many companies have gone under, and many opportunities have been missed by the locos to employ those affected by the going out of business of these companies, guys with a good track record, good people skills, good life skills. Strengths, that if certain infos on this very thread are to be believed, are sadly missing in some quarters
Experienced guys either out of work on the scrapheap, and further across the food chain stuck as TP capt, as career progression to the "plumb jet jobs" hardly exists
It is incredibly ironic that those who by the very path they elected to take, and some would argue "jump the queue by chequebook" via certain ftos and loco carriers have affected the industry as a whole for everybody, now have taken the lions share of this thread due in main to the fact that they are now experienced and hence no longer of recruitment interest to the market they helped create. And also taking the thread focus from the problems of the company and the workforce as a whole and turned it into a me me me fest.
Hopefully the decent operators out there extend the olive branch to the innocents caught up in Monarchs current situation, failing that the locos can see past the usual modus operandi of majority of cadet only recruitment and give a break to innocent bystanders, and on relevant and suitable contracts.
Hopefully Monarch survive this loco led domination, Thomas Cook another decent operator had their wings checked a few years ago, but just about survived. Hopefully for the sake of the industry Monarch manage the same
This thread ought to refocus on the issues at Monarch and has got sidetracked into the issue of Monarch enticing dozens of easyJet cadets to leave and join them for a permanent contract and a ten k payrise.
I pleaded with some of the ezy cadets not to make the move and tirelessly presented the direst of warnings. Others I let make their own decisions... Largely because some of them were good guys and some were in need of an attitude adjustment. Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
In the end they are still all young and have just a couple of years invested in Monarch. My actual sympathy extends to those who built a career and a life around it and to whom in my eyes were lied to by management and now wake up every morning under a sky of stress.
I pleaded with some of the ezy cadets not to make the move and tirelessly presented the direst of warnings. Others I let make their own decisions... Largely because some of them were good guys and some were in need of an attitude adjustment. Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
In the end they are still all young and have just a couple of years invested in Monarch. My actual sympathy extends to those who built a career and a life around it and to whom in my eyes were lied to by management and now wake up every morning under a sky of stress.
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WWW, "Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum" I don't think you could have been more patronising if you tried.... I hope that was a joke.
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Spot on Enzo999. It is the only industry I know of where experience is a positive disadvantage. BA as the flag carrier should be ashamed of themselves as they are clearly only looking to take CTC novices - otherwise they would not have reduced their hours requirement to 200. Also requiring pilots with 5000 hours to take an "aptitude test" and maths tests is bonkers - unless it is of course used as an excuse to fail experienced pilots not protected by CTC who I am sure would never have given their boys the answers to the papers in advance (sarcasm intended).
Cancel2LateLunches WWW, "Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum" I don't think you could have been more patronising if you tried.... I hope that was a joke.
I was trying to be as patronising as possible. When faced with unsufferable arrogance its a rational response. You have twigged that I was expresing my internal voice... Yes?