Highest paying airlines for pilots?...

[pull-up-terrain]

Genuine question, putting aside some of Flyboat's emotive language, which part of his post is incorrect? Interested to know.

When FBN mentioned adding 25 to 50% on top of base salary.

Realistically it is about 0% to 25% for the majority of pilots unless they are doing a load of overtime (which is virtually impossible in the current climate).

Also, not that many pilots are on the 12th year pay rate too.

[pull-up-terrain]

His average a380 incomes are out by quite a fair bit too. Put it this way, there are very very very few a380 captains earning more than $350k and there are very few a380 FO's earning more than $250k and there are very few a380 SO's earning more than $180k.

I'm still yet to meet an a380/744 FO on more than $250k or a SO on more than $180k.

I wonder if FBN has seen the a320, A330 and 777 contracts for China Southern and Hainan Airlines, these a330 captains are earning $250k net after tax and before allowances, bonuses etc. I don't think you will find any QF a380/744 captains earning that kind of money after tax.

Even the 777 captains at Virgin Australia have a base salary of around $286k which isn't very far off the QF 744 pay.

[Flyboat North]

We are all aware of what the Chinese carriers are paying , the money is about the same as Qantas except

• 20 days leave per year instead of 42
• are you allowed to have a sick day in China, almost limitless paid sickies at Qantas
• you will fly close to 900 hours per year, instead of Gentleman's 550 at Qantas
• working for contract company , which could go belly up anytime
• Chinese will change your contract when and how they feel
• living working in a totalitarian , overcrowded polluted state
• Few basing in Aus
• Can get canned in a sim anytime , no rights of redress
• astronaut standard medicals
• chinese pilots smoking in cockpits
• Can get canned anytime for any "cultural" slight that you were completely oblivious about
• Contracts are only for 3 years , will the same $$$ be available after that
• They will fling you as soon as they can, look at how quick SIA flung the expats

Great deal it is, where do I sign ?


Noticed Barry Jackson(former QF pilots union boss) wrote an article in the AFR today, trying to fleabag money for QF from the taxpayer yet again talking up a "Johny Foreigner" scare campaign. He is only wanting a few billion in the form of an interest free loan.



Truly parasitic conduct the QF boys want go back on the public tit.

[pull-up-terrain]

We are all aware of what the Chinese carriers are paying , the money is about the same as Qantas except.

From the contracts I have seen, it's significantly more than Qantas pay.

Last year, China Southern were paying Australian based a330 capatains $250k net after tax base salary with 42 days leave which is the equivalent of earning $440k AUD before tax. There were bonuses on top of this if the pilots complete there 5 year contract of approximately $40k.

I'm telling you now, an A380 training captain at QF wouldn't earn $250K after tax...

There is an A330 training captain job for Hainan airlines based in China, 42 days on, 14 days off, $348k base after tax, equivalent of $630k AUD before tax. 20 days leave.

Some of the QF guys doing LWOP for Emirates, reckon financially they are better off at emirates then they are at Qantas. Emirates pay there accomodation, private schooling, medical costs for the whole family and they earn an income after tax on top of that with 42 days leave.

[Flyboat North]

Your own man Barry Jackson said four years ago the average A380 captain was only earning $415K (AUD) , that is before the pay rise.

That is $20K Aussie a month clear think you are up 10% since the payrise, anyone got a link to the actual contract ?

Emirates is $12/13K Aussie a month clear , oh but you get a donga to stay in & we pay your power bill , but you will be flying 90 hours a month. Temps of 45 degrees for months it just sounds wonderful.

Who HooOOOO. What a deal mate !!!. Private school fees there are exorbitant and they are capped in terms of amount, no of kids. There are actually great high schools particularly the selective ones around Sydney (I went to one of them) , high schools in Perth regularly out gun the top private schools (Applecross , Rossmoyne HS etc etc) - don't cost a cracker.

Barry tried saying the QF pilots were in the middle of the pack , in terms of pay , bollocks - you are absolutely miles and miles in front

South America & Africa - no contest there

The Sand- see data above , good coin for a bloke from a developing country

EU- BA 747 clearing 165,000AUD , QF 747 clearing $240K - so 50% up

Lufthansa & Air France/KLM very seniors might get near but lets have a closer look.

Luft: It is in Germany, and Germany is the strongest economy in Europe , and it has advanced manufacturing and other things like a pharmaceutical industry. Germany has more people than we do and Australia is not Germany

Air France/KLM : A financial basket case which the froggie Govt still owns 20% of , losses for years

China: The best you will do is $18K USD for 80 hours a month. The quote of $350USD pa is complete Bull as is the 42 days annual leave.

I posted some of the other disadvantages on earlier.

But likely the biggest one is that you are relying on Flight Crew Agency men telling you the big kind airline is paying all your Chinese tax, you can commute from home or be based at home and have to pay no tax to your Govt - sure thing !! I am so sure the ATO has given the Flight crew agency men a binding private ruling , so sure so sure. The Agency men are very knowledgeable to provide this advice and are complete experts on international tax law.

The QF pilots are icons and are special and deserve to be paid 50% more than their other first world counterparts. Lefts give them a three billion dollars of tax payer money - we should organize a protest march.

I have to go now , I have a date

[lifeafteraviation]

I'm not sure what the tax is in Australia but in China it's zero....the salary is after tax and the employer pays the tax for you.

Also, at most Chinese carriers you get far more than 42 days paid leave per year. I think most contracts are a minimum of 90 days with up to six months paid annual paid leave for a bit less salary. On top of that you get the scheduled rest days to comply with regulations and flying limits.

Last year I flew about 550 hours and had about 130 days paid leave outside China. I also took a bunch of paid sick time.

Chinese contracts aren't paid on an hourly rate. You are guaranteed a salary with overtime promised after 80 hours. Some pilots pile on the OT, some don't. There are almost always other paid benefits such as annual guaranteed bonus, housing allowances and travel allowances on top of salary that amount to a few thousand more per month.

Yes there are disadvantages to working in China but there's also many advantages. For the most part I wouldn't recommend it to any but young and single people who don't have significant attachments to family or who's family will come with them. I also recommend trying to be based in a southern city with less pollution and a better climate.

As far as job security, I think it's no different. Pilot jobs are never stable anywhere but I've never heard of a Chinese carrier furloughing foreign pilots before.

If you have a decent paying and relatively stable position elsewhere, keep it.

Mostly I would just like to set some facts straight.

[Tankengine]

Australian top rate of tax (over $180K) is 47.5% and shortly plus 2% more.

Flyboat North is a wannabe pilot, a troll with a twisted view of QF pilots.

He is also a liar, spruiking crap time and time again on the Downunder forums.

[lifeafteraviation]

Typically only about ten percent of foreign applicants are accepted to fly in China by the various airlines. Since you must already be a current and experienced captain in your own country it can be quite an ego blow to be turned down by China especially since the reasons are usually vague.

So for every guy flying in China there are about ten pilots who may have some personal resentment toward China (despite that they may actually be better off).

[harry the cod]

FBN

Not sure why I'm bothering really but more for the sake of the original poster than disproving your blinkered view, especially as we've had a few senior ex QF 380 F/O's join recently.

11 year Emirates, 8 years as Captain. Monthly amounts, give or take a few dirhams are;

Basic 43500
Flying pay 5500
Housing allowance 15000
Line training pay 6000
Provident fund Co. Contributions 6500

That's around 76,500 per month. Let's remove the LTC for comparing like with like so call it a round 70,000. That's 840,000 per annum or U$230K. I've not included the Company contribution to education which is around 60,000 per annum or meal allowances or profit share. So, to earn 230k would require a salary in the region of 380k gross based on a 40% deduction. These are US dollar figures so 400 straight for Aussie, alright?

Granted, being here for 4-5 months during the hotter months can be a grind, but less so than the noise and congestion in HK or the constant smog and pollution in China. And as an aside, I'm not from a 'developing country'.

Enjoy the flies mate!

[Flyboat North]

Harry did the "Senior Qantas FOs" mention to you that they are actually on LWOP for three years, and they still have their seniority numbers reserved for them back home. Or did they just forget to mention that fact.

Harry - THINK man , THINK

How many people actually resign from legacies which still have premium conditions to go to the sand, as we know it isn't many.

Many Air France / Lufty A380 FOs quit and jumped over , what was that , oh OK a big fat zilch.

They are just kicking the tyres and taking advantage of the LWOP getting foreign contacts, licence etc , esp high value licences such as JCAB fly out of Japan for a few years, really you would be crazy not to.

Are you also aware Emirates virtually have a direct transfer arrangement with Emirates, and very much have a fast track selection into the airline, if they want a job meet mins, they pretty much have the job. Great think "partners" huh ?

Your numbers aren't bad but they need bit of work, for example I don't think you should be including the provident fund, I wasn't including Australian superannuation which is now just under 10%.

Also your inclusion of the housing allowance is somewhat questionable. It is standard condition that if you go to an "adverse conditions" environment for work , accom gets thrown in , quite significant storage costs at home for whatever belongings remain etc. So really we need to take off your provident fund, we will allow you half of housing allowance , so let's say 65,000 per month.

It is a pretty good deal you have, but do a side by side comparison would your prefer to live in ArabVegas flying 900 hours per year on $200K clear, or Cottage on Northern Beaches flying 550 hours a year $240K clear -head down to Manly for Morning surf a few days a week when home.

The question doesn't need to be answered really does it ?

How would the average Euro have any concept of the debilitating and lifestyle limiting effects of 3/4 months of over 40degrees Celsius every day that you have there in ArabVegas wonderland ?

What $$$ value would you put on that ?, must be V hard for those with small children

[hownowbrowncow]

FBN, could you please stop referring to the bad conditions and lifestyle that pilots have to put up with living in the desert or Asia and using that as some sort of justification for the higher pay.

Yes, we know that those airlines have to pay more for pilots to go there because nobody actually wants to live there, but how is that any justification to pay pilots in oz less because they live in a nice country?

Are you seriously saying that Qantas pilots should be paid less because the job is (was) safe and Australia isn't a ?

[737Jock]

Lowcost in europe, French contract, captain, 135k basic EUR per annum plus sector pay around 15-20k, 10% loyalty bonus after 5years in company 15% after 10years (time in RHS counts), performance bonus in December, plus: pension, loss of licence (lumpsum and temporary for 2 years), paid sick days, medical, uniform, healthcare insurance partly paid by company and yearly free shares. SFO, a bit over 100k EUR total package. Other scales I don't know.
It's not the highest paid job... but it only took 7years of flying to achieve, still have over 30 years to go.

I probably forgot some stuff. But I'd rather be in Europe then in china or the sandpit.

[FlyingTinCans]

How would the average Euro have any concept of the debilitating and lifestyle limiting effects of 3/4 months of over 40degrees Celsius every day that you have there in ArabVegas wonderland ?

It's pretty easy to get through, turn the air con on. Or if that's too much hard work get your maid to do it.

If you want some fresh air & not melt, a group of us charter at yacht and and spend the day on the Gulf.

It's a tough life here

[harry the cod]

FBN

"we will allow you half of housing allowance"

What would you like me to do with the other half? Tell the Company so they can keep it or just keep quiet, stuff it under the pillow and not include it towards paying off my family villa? What bizarre logic you apply when you want to prove a point!

As for surfing, it's not my bag baby but my son really enjoys the beach here in Dubai. Not Manly but there again no pissed up drunkies taunting the lebo gangs.

As for The ex QF F/O, he was not exactly extolling the virtues of his previous employer and was not planing on returning anytime soon. Kept muttering something about senior captains, union reps and self interest, redundancy, and possible command on a narrow body by the time he's eighty. Switched off after 10 minutes. Might of also mentioned taxes, immigration and cost of living but I really was asleep by then even with the occasional profanity he through in!

Keep swatting those pesky flies mate!

[pitotheat]

FBN has got a real monk on about something. Has someone not told him that in a commercial environment, even one propped up by the government, you get the market rate. If you think you deserve less then you need to reread the rules. If you are a qualified commercial pilot stay away from Europe we've got rid of most of the whingers from down under to the desert a few years ago and we're not in a hurry to see anymore. Have a nice day!

[lifeafteraviation]

The highest paying jobs are when you run your own successful business and own your own plane. A small twin turboprop or something that actually requires flying skill, unlike our modern automated airliners.

Then your life is actually interesting and exciting and you don't spend your days in here whining.

[Flyboat North]

Yes the Cronulla chaps didn't do us so proud, but we have developed an innovative relocation program where they can move to some of the world's great cultural centres such as Bali, Pattaya etc and still collect their dole cheques. The concern is that they will be trained how to really throw on a good riot by the 1st Worlds undisputed Champions of White trash the English lager lout.

How many billion dollars did they cause last year, or perhaps the year before in the London riots, caused by the great evil of - was it a power outage.

The principle of housing allowance when going to punishment posts is really quite well established.

In Australia if you want to live somewhere which is climatically similar to ArabVegas , say a mine in the Pilbara - well you get a donga thrown in as part of the deal. Same for doing a tour of the antarctic or working offshore - you get accommodation. Same for working in places like Saudi - you get a "villa" & Qatar most places the white man goes to work in the Middle East in fact. You get somewhere to live.

So to include this as part of your salary is in some ways a little disingenuous. Are you including the costs of storage of your household goods back home , paying for maintenance that you can't perform back home yourself , how much does it cost people to relocate to the ME ?

Really a cursory browse through ArabVegas real estate, shows that for a single guy wanting a nice two bedroom , not penthouse but above a fifty sq metre (do you need a hand with the conversion to Imperial there Harry ?) dogbox , the 15,000 per month won't cut it, yes surprise surprise the Arabs have short changed you, just like the education allowances - you will have to put your hand in your own pocket.

So if you elect to take the allowance you won't cover rental costs, and all utilities will be from your pocket.

[Setright]

''No I don't have a problem with people being paid what they are worth.''

Yes you do..........you're a hypocrite!


''I do have a problem with my Qantas shares going down, when I can see the cause''

I sold my shares at $5.25 when I realised Emirates would be flying to Australia. Not only are you a hypocrite, you are an equally bad investor as well!


''I also have a problem with a company trying to con our Govt into giving them billions of dollars so their workers can continue to live like royalty, when I know their workers are overpaid 50%''

I did not reinvest in Qantas because the government wanted them to compete with the overseas airlines from an Australian base, with both hands tied behind their back. (no access to foreign capital). Any subsidy paid by subsequent Governments were to level the playing field, Australian costs and tax rates competing with Low cost low tax Asian labour. Qantas has been trying to off shore for years to no effect. Your assessment to cause, is simplistic and self serving!


''so their workers can continue to live like royalty, when I know their workers are overpaid 50%''

Really Mr Flyboat North, you decided!............ If you don't see any problem with having an Australian income for Australian costs reduced by 50%, then you won't mind if we reduce all your future wages, pension, unemployment and annual leave entitlements, government services etc by 50%.


''I would prefer the money to be spent looking after the disabled, and improving our Universities, not providing a subsidy so QF second officers can continue to earn $200K (that is clearing 72,000 Pounds After Tax)'' (Bull**** with a capital T.)

No one gives a what you prefer, Mr Flyboat North, and your figures are self serving Bull**** with a capital T.
If you feel so strongly, put your money where you mouth is and donate, or run for office and see how much support you get!



I will now apologize to everybody else on this thread sans Mr Flyboat North, for my rant................ for being the gentlemen that they are and putting up with this burke!

Unfortunately my tolerance to online stupidity has been receding at the same rate as my hairline!

[jriv]

What could have been a really cool thread about where a guy could pull down the most coin turned into a dick measuring contest.

Bummer.

[Jenson Button]

Waste of breath ?

FBN, do you have anything worthwhile to add other than spouting cr@p that is so off the mark regards this thread ? Please shut the eck up or else discuss reasonably about where the grass is greener.

Highest pay is in China but then the lifestyle might just suck, so does the air you breath.