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I agree there is too much negativity on here but then again we are pilots so what else would you expect. Obviously for your own personal reasons leaving was the correct thing to do and I am pleased you happy at BA but there are people like me that have flown LH before and have no desire to do it again. So for us the golden carrot of BA does not exist and all we are left with is command on SH. If that's going to take 10 years again maybe you can see why I feel slightly negative.
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The key is swapping, Enzo. I'm almost obsessive about monitoring open time to the extent that I get a sick little thrill out of it!
Regarding commands, I'm not sure 10 years to a short haul command is accurate. 2017 was always going to be very quiet, things will pick up again in 2018 and there are still plenty of guys with no interest in SH at BA.
Regarding commands, I'm not sure 10 years to a short haul command is accurate. 2017 was always going to be very quiet, things will pick up again in 2018 and there are still plenty of guys with no interest in SH at BA.
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I'm more than happy to answer your question 4468.
Like the others, I do not wish to be negative and certainly don't wish to discourage anyone from applying to or accepting a position with BA. They are a very professional organisation and in many aspects a pleasure to deal with. From recruitment through joining, type rating, line training and online almost everyone has been incredibly friendly, accommodating and professional.
I cannot think of anywhere else I'd truly recommend anyone else to be rather than at BA, but like the other guys / girls who have commented above, everyone has different expectations and different things float different peoples' boats, as it were.
I see a lot less of my family now because whereas before I was doing day trips I'm now doing longhaul and am away approx 10 to 15 nights away per month if I have a month with no annual leave. Add into that around 5 to 6 nights a month of sleep lost due to night flying plus 24 hour layovers in the likes of JFK, BOS, YYZ etc and without doubt I feel more tired than I ever did in my last job. Others may not find that tiring and I don't wish to put anyone off but personally, I find it somewhat exhausting. Getting adequate rest downroute is easier for some than others.
The endless complexity of bidding and then trying to swap trips is what some call 'flexible' and offers 'control' over their life but my personal experience is that is just adds uncertainty over one's life that I didn't have before in my last job.
I gave up my command - my choice of course - and I haven't enjoyed being back in the right seat but others may find this left back to right move perfectly acceptable. For me, getting my head around some archaic SOPs has been tricky and not made easier by those in the left seat at times, but maybe that's just me. Too long at my last company probably.
LHR is a pain compared to the regional airports I've previously been based at where you can park your car and be reporting for duty within 5 mins, and delays departing and arriving are minimal whereas I am often late going into or out of LHR.
As has been alluded to, the complexity of simple tasks like needing a new tie clip is just crazy. You can order one, but it has to be picked up in a 3 day window otherwise the order is cancelled and the process has to start again. What if that 3 day window is on days off or annual leave? I'd never advocate resigning or questioning one's decision to join a company based on such a small issue but it's just an example of how things work in BA.
Ultimately I just miss my 2 or 4 sector simple days, easy car parking, my command, my previous salary, seeing my family every day, hand flying a visual into Faro or whenever one likes if appropriate, zero night flying and a simple rostering system.
If you're based abroad, say in the ME and want to come home, BA would be like a dream. If you're an FO at a LoCo carrier and fancy long haul or a long career at BA, it's the job for you. If you're stuck on turbo props and want to fly jets without forking out for a type rating, BA is a brilliant opportunity.
For me, I joined too late in my career (10+ years in) and miss my old lifestyle. Absolutely horses for courses and some will love it, some won't. All I suggest is that if you're in the left seat of a decent carrier and you're happy, think twice about coming to BA as it may well not offer you a better life. For anyone else, go for it as for most people it's probably the best career airline out there in Europe for new joiners.
Like the others, I do not wish to be negative and certainly don't wish to discourage anyone from applying to or accepting a position with BA. They are a very professional organisation and in many aspects a pleasure to deal with. From recruitment through joining, type rating, line training and online almost everyone has been incredibly friendly, accommodating and professional.
I cannot think of anywhere else I'd truly recommend anyone else to be rather than at BA, but like the other guys / girls who have commented above, everyone has different expectations and different things float different peoples' boats, as it were.
I see a lot less of my family now because whereas before I was doing day trips I'm now doing longhaul and am away approx 10 to 15 nights away per month if I have a month with no annual leave. Add into that around 5 to 6 nights a month of sleep lost due to night flying plus 24 hour layovers in the likes of JFK, BOS, YYZ etc and without doubt I feel more tired than I ever did in my last job. Others may not find that tiring and I don't wish to put anyone off but personally, I find it somewhat exhausting. Getting adequate rest downroute is easier for some than others.
The endless complexity of bidding and then trying to swap trips is what some call 'flexible' and offers 'control' over their life but my personal experience is that is just adds uncertainty over one's life that I didn't have before in my last job.
I gave up my command - my choice of course - and I haven't enjoyed being back in the right seat but others may find this left back to right move perfectly acceptable. For me, getting my head around some archaic SOPs has been tricky and not made easier by those in the left seat at times, but maybe that's just me. Too long at my last company probably.
LHR is a pain compared to the regional airports I've previously been based at where you can park your car and be reporting for duty within 5 mins, and delays departing and arriving are minimal whereas I am often late going into or out of LHR.
As has been alluded to, the complexity of simple tasks like needing a new tie clip is just crazy. You can order one, but it has to be picked up in a 3 day window otherwise the order is cancelled and the process has to start again. What if that 3 day window is on days off or annual leave? I'd never advocate resigning or questioning one's decision to join a company based on such a small issue but it's just an example of how things work in BA.
Ultimately I just miss my 2 or 4 sector simple days, easy car parking, my command, my previous salary, seeing my family every day, hand flying a visual into Faro or whenever one likes if appropriate, zero night flying and a simple rostering system.
If you're based abroad, say in the ME and want to come home, BA would be like a dream. If you're an FO at a LoCo carrier and fancy long haul or a long career at BA, it's the job for you. If you're stuck on turbo props and want to fly jets without forking out for a type rating, BA is a brilliant opportunity.
For me, I joined too late in my career (10+ years in) and miss my old lifestyle. Absolutely horses for courses and some will love it, some won't. All I suggest is that if you're in the left seat of a decent carrier and you're happy, think twice about coming to BA as it may well not offer you a better life. For anyone else, go for it as for most people it's probably the best career airline out there in Europe for new joiners.
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Hi guys
Very grateful for the balanced replies. They are more like the kind of assessment I would expect. Which basically is that, for anyone wishing to fly entirely SH for the rest of their career, BA SH probably isn't the greatest. If you want to travel in to work every day, and be home every night, (rather than visiting some of the world's great cities) don't come to BA. If you value your LHS, rather than job security, don't come to BA.
Is BA the greatest flying job in the world? Where is???? That definitely wouldn't be an airline job anyway! Is it the best paid job in the world? No, you can go fly for non-unionised airlines in the ME, if you'd like that! Or Chapter 11 protected US carriers if you have the necessary right to work for them, and have a decade or so in which to try to join!
The great news for tommytailwind is that, for anyone for whom LH just isn't working, then unlike Virgin, you ALWAYS retain the option of bidding for SH. You would also have significant seniority/control once there too!
BA isn't what it used to be! On that 'bombshell' we can all agree. But that change hasn't happened in isolation. It is no more than a reflection of the world in which we now live. Get used to it, or find an alternative career that hasn't similarly changed!
It is what it is!
What I will say is this. No carrier in the UK offers a greater range of work-life choices than BA. If you can't find one that suits you, then the problem may not actually lie with the employer??
One quick question if I may? What is stopping some of you guys flying your beloved hand flown visuals into Faro etc? VERY recently, I would say 75-80% of my approaches in BA were hand flown.
Very grateful for the balanced replies. They are more like the kind of assessment I would expect. Which basically is that, for anyone wishing to fly entirely SH for the rest of their career, BA SH probably isn't the greatest. If you want to travel in to work every day, and be home every night, (rather than visiting some of the world's great cities) don't come to BA. If you value your LHS, rather than job security, don't come to BA.
Is BA the greatest flying job in the world? Where is???? That definitely wouldn't be an airline job anyway! Is it the best paid job in the world? No, you can go fly for non-unionised airlines in the ME, if you'd like that! Or Chapter 11 protected US carriers if you have the necessary right to work for them, and have a decade or so in which to try to join!
The great news for tommytailwind is that, for anyone for whom LH just isn't working, then unlike Virgin, you ALWAYS retain the option of bidding for SH. You would also have significant seniority/control once there too!
BA isn't what it used to be! On that 'bombshell' we can all agree. But that change hasn't happened in isolation. It is no more than a reflection of the world in which we now live. Get used to it, or find an alternative career that hasn't similarly changed!
It is what it is!
What I will say is this. No carrier in the UK offers a greater range of work-life choices than BA. If you can't find one that suits you, then the problem may not actually lie with the employer??
One quick question if I may? What is stopping some of you guys flying your beloved hand flown visuals into Faro etc? VERY recently, I would say 75-80% of my approaches in BA were hand flown.
Last edited by 4468; 14th Dec 2016 at 12:23.
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4468 - what you write is spot on. BA has had to change in order to compete in the modern world. If it had stood still it would have been swallowed up. No complaints at all - it's just not the golden ticket it once might have been.
The only thing stopping me flying visuals into Faro etc is on the 747 we don't go into Faro too often
The only thing stopping me flying visuals into Faro etc is on the 747 we don't go into Faro too often
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Incidentally EMB-145LR
That kind of ignorant, and unprofessional behaviour from CTC trainers, definitely needs feeding back to BA.
Thanks.
Perhaps this gentleman might be interested?
Tommytailwind
When was the last time you flew a good weather approach into a US airfield, and they didn't offer you a visual?
Our initial type rating was with CTC and we were constantly being told by our (mainly easyJet) trainers that the BA SOPs are hopeless.
Thanks.
Perhaps this gentleman might be interested?
As the business moves into its next phase of international growth and diversity, CTC Aviation has appointed former Head of Short Haul for British Airways – Robin Glover-Faure – to the position of Vice President, Airline Training.
When was the last time you flew a good weather approach into a US airfield, and they didn't offer you a visual?
Last edited by 4468; 14th Dec 2016 at 12:40.
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I'm really sorry and I don't wish to be "that guy" but come on, needing a new tie clip is complicated? I rocked up to Gatwick uniform stores on my way up to Heathrow with my ID, no appointment, said I'd lost mine and I needed a new one. A drawer opened and two seconds later I was presented with my new tie clip. Are we sure we're not over complicating things here?
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4468/EMB Try LGW.
I bid, I get (Just over 12 months in the company), No 5 day tours, nowhere near as many cabin crew swaps (single fleet), 3 night stops (All UK), No crazy bidding system just a simple preferences system...
Usually home within an hour of chocks on too.
I bid, I get (Just over 12 months in the company), No 5 day tours, nowhere near as many cabin crew swaps (single fleet), 3 night stops (All UK), No crazy bidding system just a simple preferences system...
Usually home within an hour of chocks on too.
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I really don't want to be dragged into a debate. The uniform stores at LGW (along with a number of other things at LGW) work way better than life at LHR. I'm just passing on my experiences, that's all. As I mentioned, a tie clip matter is trivial in terms of a career decision and maybe I picked a bad example.
As for visuals in the US - sure. But there are visuals and there are visuals. Visuals offered on base leg in dual RW ops with traffic everywhere compared to being cleared for a visual 30 miles out are a different story in terms of fun factor. As I said, horses for courses and for some BA life is great.
As for visuals in the US - sure. But there are visuals and there are visuals. Visuals offered on base leg in dual RW ops with traffic everywhere compared to being cleared for a visual 30 miles out are a different story in terms of fun factor. As I said, horses for courses and for some BA life is great.
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BA is a simple beast. You work the system as best you can to your advantage. You make your choices and deal with it. I work pretty much every weekend and take blind lines. My choice, I work a little less and use every trick I can to maximise my time off etc. I could have had LH or been close to the top of the FO SH list and chose my work but I took LHS and the positives and negatives with that.
I come to work do the best job I can and go home. The company gives my family a good income and when I have needed their support for a personal problem they have been fantastic. Training is very good but you only get out what you put in. BA is impersonal and that's good when I want it to be. I can however pick up the phone to ops and ask for a favour for a favour and it's then quite personal. Win win.
What's crap? Loads if you enter into conversation with some. I don't get involved (although for some reason I read this) and I am much happier for it.
Is BA the dream ticket? Not for me but the dream ticket nearly went bust, the good gig did go bust and the one that reliably pays but demands a lot from me is BA. Maybe that says something
As for the manual flying etc. You can do what you like just remember the standard caveat applies "don't F&Łk it up"
I come to work do the best job I can and go home. The company gives my family a good income and when I have needed their support for a personal problem they have been fantastic. Training is very good but you only get out what you put in. BA is impersonal and that's good when I want it to be. I can however pick up the phone to ops and ask for a favour for a favour and it's then quite personal. Win win.
What's crap? Loads if you enter into conversation with some. I don't get involved (although for some reason I read this) and I am much happier for it.
Is BA the dream ticket? Not for me but the dream ticket nearly went bust, the good gig did go bust and the one that reliably pays but demands a lot from me is BA. Maybe that says something
As for the manual flying etc. You can do what you like just remember the standard caveat applies "don't F&Łk it up"
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I think there is a very balanced view above from my original post a page back. I didn't expect it to provoke such a reaction! For me i stand by what i wrote, at no point did i advise don't join just come in with your eyes wide open about what it is you want BA to be.
For me there was no Due Diligence as i was getting made redundant and needed a job! I always knew BA would be very hard for me due to the time away regardless of SH / LH as i have young children and a son with special needs so home life for me is hard at the best of times. I am also the wrong side of 40 which is not an ideal age to join BA, again this is my personal situation. I can totally see someone in their 20's / 30's with no children would perhaps have no issues at all.
I find LH pretty exhausting compared to 2 sector days due to the night flying and not being someone who can fall asleep anywhere! I would describe it as feeling like i have mild permanent flu most of the time unless i have a good 4 or 5 days off. Again this can be a very personal thing but i know many that feel the same.
That said i was and still am glad to have got into BA given the alternative was redundancy or forced part-time and for the security it offers.
The lifestyle that Monarch offered me over BA was better (for me personally) and was for others i know. I wanted to point out to those that may have rose tinted glasses that BA is not perfect .....but where is.
The differential between BA and other airlines is getting slimmer all the time why else would they have to go to the ME / Far East to get the numbers they needed. As stated above they cannot stand still and will no doubt continue to lower terms to compete, i think this contributes to the lowish morale within BA as the realisation that cost cutting will continue and things will be squeezed further.
To conclude join with realistic expectations, accept it will take time to settle especially if coming from a smaller company, you do feel more of a number at BA but i have also had great support from BA when i needed it with my son they really were great if you have a genuine problem...
You will be away from home and for me that is the biggest factor and i miss the lifestyle of being home most nights, I have had many conversations with guys who admit when they were 25 BA was brill now they are married and have children its a different job and if they could get out they would!
I have found almost everyone i've flown with at BA to be just like everyone else at my previous airlines, great guys and good fun.
If i could go back to Monarch how it was i'd go tomorrow ......but hey life doesn't always give us what we want!
For me there was no Due Diligence as i was getting made redundant and needed a job! I always knew BA would be very hard for me due to the time away regardless of SH / LH as i have young children and a son with special needs so home life for me is hard at the best of times. I am also the wrong side of 40 which is not an ideal age to join BA, again this is my personal situation. I can totally see someone in their 20's / 30's with no children would perhaps have no issues at all.
I find LH pretty exhausting compared to 2 sector days due to the night flying and not being someone who can fall asleep anywhere! I would describe it as feeling like i have mild permanent flu most of the time unless i have a good 4 or 5 days off. Again this can be a very personal thing but i know many that feel the same.
That said i was and still am glad to have got into BA given the alternative was redundancy or forced part-time and for the security it offers.
The lifestyle that Monarch offered me over BA was better (for me personally) and was for others i know. I wanted to point out to those that may have rose tinted glasses that BA is not perfect .....but where is.
The differential between BA and other airlines is getting slimmer all the time why else would they have to go to the ME / Far East to get the numbers they needed. As stated above they cannot stand still and will no doubt continue to lower terms to compete, i think this contributes to the lowish morale within BA as the realisation that cost cutting will continue and things will be squeezed further.
To conclude join with realistic expectations, accept it will take time to settle especially if coming from a smaller company, you do feel more of a number at BA but i have also had great support from BA when i needed it with my son they really were great if you have a genuine problem...
You will be away from home and for me that is the biggest factor and i miss the lifestyle of being home most nights, I have had many conversations with guys who admit when they were 25 BA was brill now they are married and have children its a different job and if they could get out they would!
I have found almost everyone i've flown with at BA to be just like everyone else at my previous airlines, great guys and good fun.
If i could go back to Monarch how it was i'd go tomorrow ......but hey life doesn't always give us what we want!
Last edited by Pork chop express; 14th Dec 2016 at 20:35. Reason: Add comment
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Pork chop express- agree with you. If only I could have added security to my perfect job. A imperfect world.
Sounds like you know where fleet team is and they can be your biggest friend. I have always found BA have had the attitude of "what can we do for you" during times of difficulty at home. We are big enough as a group to look after those who need to support family due to accident, illness, injury or special needs etc. Often it just needs us to put our hands up and ask.
I would echo your points. BA is hugely unfair but it's not the fault of the company. It's alright but I have told a few friends who are LHS at other airlines not to come as they will regret it in the short to medium term.
Sounds like you know where fleet team is and they can be your biggest friend. I have always found BA have had the attitude of "what can we do for you" during times of difficulty at home. We are big enough as a group to look after those who need to support family due to accident, illness, injury or special needs etc. Often it just needs us to put our hands up and ask.
I would echo your points. BA is hugely unfair but it's not the fault of the company. It's alright but I have told a few friends who are LHS at other airlines not to come as they will regret it in the short to medium term.
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The really great news for those here not happy with BA, is that one look at this Terms and Endearment section, show a number of other airlines are recruiting.
I imagine those in the pool won't be too disappointed with the prospect of a few more vacancies at BA, after folks move on to a better option.
I imagine those in the pool won't be too disappointed with the prospect of a few more vacancies at BA, after folks move on to a better option.
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Are you seriously grieving for monarch? A company that nearly went bust several times? And whilst I agree the work there may have been a lot less and "suited" your lifestyle; maybe, just maybe, the inability, or slow pace of change there has something to do with it's likely demise.
I've been in BA 17 years and I too wish I could go back to the workload on the 757 in 2000. 500 hours per year and a nice mix on LH&SH. Times change and companies adapt or die; I don't particularly like it either, but maybe in your case nostalgia is rose tinted?.
The trick in BA is to peddle on that hamster wheel for 20 odd years and not stress the crap you can't change, then hop off and enjoy your pension.(what's left of it).
I've been in BA 17 years and I too wish I could go back to the workload on the 757 in 2000. 500 hours per year and a nice mix on LH&SH. Times change and companies adapt or die; I don't particularly like it either, but maybe in your case nostalgia is rose tinted?.
The trick in BA is to peddle on that hamster wheel for 20 odd years and not stress the crap you can't change, then hop off and enjoy your pension.(what's left of it).
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I know it's hard to believe, but senior people joined at the bottom once too you know. Remember 9/11? Life as a bottom feeder wasn't a bed of roses as a new joiner then believe me.
If you don't like it that much in BA then why not rejoin your previous outfits? Or did you burn bridges there perhaps by whinging how you want this mythical dream job?
If you don't like it that much in BA then why not rejoin your previous outfits? Or did you burn bridges there perhaps by whinging how you want this mythical dream job?
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Have to confess that JS post strikes a chord. Whilst most of this discussion has been conducted in a mature professional manner, every now and then the BA arrogance poked its head above the parapet. Are BA SOPs really so good everyone else has to admire them? If CTC trainers think they are crap maybe, just maybe, they are !
The main points made are that BA may well for many be the best gig in town but for some it is not the holly grail. This is reflected above but none of the posters are hinting that they plan to depart.
The main points made are that BA may well for many be the best gig in town but for some it is not the holly grail. This is reflected above but none of the posters are hinting that they plan to depart.
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JaxofMarlow I've spent a couple of years now listening to that guy (now firmly in the ignore list) denigrate everything about this industry (this goes back well before I got to BA). When he left aviation I thought that would be the end of it and we were spared his rubbish but no, he has continued to come back to pprune making more and more comments, which are purely intended to get people's backs up (and could never be construed as anything else) before I finally reacted to it.
Go back and look at some of his comments on the role of pilots and the nature of our job (and some in this very thread) before you judge the context of my remarks. Enlighteningly enough you'll find I'm far from the only person to have reacted to him and I almost feel like I've failed the test and given him the reaction he craves because of that but a forum for professional pilots should be above the kind of childish trolling that he exhibits.
Anyway, back to the topic of BA recruitment I feel.
Go back and look at some of his comments on the role of pilots and the nature of our job (and some in this very thread) before you judge the context of my remarks. Enlighteningly enough you'll find I'm far from the only person to have reacted to him and I almost feel like I've failed the test and given him the reaction he craves because of that but a forum for professional pilots should be above the kind of childish trolling that he exhibits.
Anyway, back to the topic of BA recruitment I feel.