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Possibly, but when the Industry is on the down, it definitely applies to employees. The employers make sure it does!
Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.
Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.
Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.
Cheers
2W2R
Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.
Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.
Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.
Cheers
2W2R
I think what has hamstrung the current BACC is they saw what happened to the cabin crew in their dispute. End result is BASSA really aren't at the negotiating table anymore. I don't for one second think the new management would act any different if Balpa did the same. Sr. Cruz just needs an excuse to bring across some of his more interesting ideas from Vueling.
I wouldn't go as far as blaming the union, rather the lack of unity among the pilot workforce. Different pension schemes, pay scales and differing senses of entitlement mean that one size doesn't fit all. It is very difficult for BALPA to please more than about 30% of the workforce at any one time.
2 Whites 2 Reds
FWIW that is also the way I see it.
Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay
Wiggy,
I think that senior pilots are also disadvantaged under option B. The company state that it wouldn't allow a pilot to get something like Cpt Cpt Lax on a line. If my current seniority would allow me to get that then the proposed changes are a degredation in conditions. So junior and senior suffer. Who wins? Why the company of course.
This BACC have overseen a massive degredation in our terms and conditions. The holy grail of bidline has gone and we've received nothing in return. If they didn't see that allowing new entrants onto a new pension and payscale would lead to the demolition of bargaining power due to split interests then they are fools. Everyone else saw it and told them but, as usual, we were just short sighted whereas they had the "big picture" and knew what was best for us. Muppets.
I think that senior pilots are also disadvantaged under option B. The company state that it wouldn't allow a pilot to get something like Cpt Cpt Lax on a line. If my current seniority would allow me to get that then the proposed changes are a degredation in conditions. So junior and senior suffer. Who wins? Why the company of course.
This BACC have overseen a massive degredation in our terms and conditions. The holy grail of bidline has gone and we've received nothing in return. If they didn't see that allowing new entrants onto a new pension and payscale would lead to the demolition of bargaining power due to split interests then they are fools. Everyone else saw it and told them but, as usual, we were just short sighted whereas they had the "big picture" and knew what was best for us. Muppets.
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Flap62
Everyone else might have seen it and told them, but there have been votes on each of the changes you mention. If people want to continue to blindly follow their reps and vote in the direction BALPA recommend, then there is actually very little democratic process and the BALPA reps might as well just be a team of BA selected pilot negotiators. We need a team of professional negotiators, not pilots who've been on the odd course, and we need a union that is not scared of its own shadow. In my opinion, pilots are in BALPA for a few different reasons, but top of the list are laziness (they can't be bothered looking at proposals properly; choosing to simply vote whichever way the reps suggest), hope (they think things would be worse without a union and hope that one day it will grow a pair), and insurance (they think BALPA will protect them legally if they ever have an incident/accident, or if they have some other problem at work. They are wrong though. If BALPA chooses to protect you - you didn't need protecting in the first place.)
Everyone else might have seen it and told them, but there have been votes on each of the changes you mention. If people want to continue to blindly follow their reps and vote in the direction BALPA recommend, then there is actually very little democratic process and the BALPA reps might as well just be a team of BA selected pilot negotiators. We need a team of professional negotiators, not pilots who've been on the odd course, and we need a union that is not scared of its own shadow. In my opinion, pilots are in BALPA for a few different reasons, but top of the list are laziness (they can't be bothered looking at proposals properly; choosing to simply vote whichever way the reps suggest), hope (they think things would be worse without a union and hope that one day it will grow a pair), and insurance (they think BALPA will protect them legally if they ever have an incident/accident, or if they have some other problem at work. They are wrong though. If BALPA chooses to protect you - you didn't need protecting in the first place.)
GS-Alpha has got it about right....in fact BALPA will only support you legally if there is a >50% chance of winning your case. I wonder how many members appreciate that......
GS Alpha and hunter boy,
Agree with you both 100%.
It is pretty difficult when the union present you with two choices, neither of which is palatable and both of which are acceptable to the management. A non of the above option on the ballot paper might be a winner. Oh, and you get to pay 1% of your salary for being stiffed by your union.
Agree with you both 100%.
It is pretty difficult when the union present you with two choices, neither of which is palatable and both of which are acceptable to the management. A non of the above option on the ballot paper might be a winner. Oh, and you get to pay 1% of your salary for being stiffed by your union.
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Flap 62
While this may affect senior people too, I would argue that the impact isn't quite the same. But you're quite right when you say that, in the end, the company wins. Which is why I'll go back to my original question, why are we accepting this at a time when things are on the up??? Surely we should be adding value to our contracts, not making huge sacrifices to the detriment of all concerned.
The problem is, those further down the list are the lower earners in the company so to remove £7-8k of guaranteed annual income represents approximately a 12% pay cut in year 1. When paying a mortgage and raising a family in the South, that's a really big deal.
I'm staggered that BALPA are recommending I accept a 12% pay cut from my fixed income to accept a Variable pay arrangement in return! My monthly subs were taken on Wednesday and I'm wondering what on earth I'm paying for.
While this may affect senior people too, I would argue that the impact isn't quite the same. But you're quite right when you say that, in the end, the company wins. Which is why I'll go back to my original question, why are we accepting this at a time when things are on the up??? Surely we should be adding value to our contracts, not making huge sacrifices to the detriment of all concerned.
The problem is, those further down the list are the lower earners in the company so to remove £7-8k of guaranteed annual income represents approximately a 12% pay cut in year 1. When paying a mortgage and raising a family in the South, that's a really big deal.
I'm staggered that BALPA are recommending I accept a 12% pay cut from my fixed income to accept a Variable pay arrangement in return! My monthly subs were taken on Wednesday and I'm wondering what on earth I'm paying for.
Last edited by 2 Whites 2 Reds; 5th Feb 2016 at 09:41.
2W2R,
I agree that (as usual) it is those further down the food chain who will suffer proportionately more. How can it be that we were persuaded a few years ago that moving onto a monthly fixed payment was better for us and the way ahead? Remember BALPA telling us that they had fought hard to get the best deal (after embarrassingly having to backtrack after initially high-handedly imposing a solution on us!)? so what has changed in the last few years that they are now recommending a 180 degree turn?
We have probably taken something near a 15% cut in the last 15 years and yet in times of near record profits BALPA tell us that the proposed 3 year deal will hopefully give us real world increases in at least one of the years!
Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.
I agree that (as usual) it is those further down the food chain who will suffer proportionately more. How can it be that we were persuaded a few years ago that moving onto a monthly fixed payment was better for us and the way ahead? Remember BALPA telling us that they had fought hard to get the best deal (after embarrassingly having to backtrack after initially high-handedly imposing a solution on us!)? so what has changed in the last few years that they are now recommending a 180 degree turn?
We have probably taken something near a 15% cut in the last 15 years and yet in times of near record profits BALPA tell us that the proposed 3 year deal will hopefully give us real world increases in at least one of the years!
Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.
So is there any more clarity on what this new roster system is going to deliver?
All bidding for destinations and days off, so if you're junior you will still get the equivalent of a blind line? Can you prioritise days off over destinations? Will trip swapping still be available?
All bidding for destinations and days off, so if you're junior you will still get the equivalent of a blind line? Can you prioritise days off over destinations? Will trip swapping still be available?
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Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.
So is there any more clarity on what this new roster system is going to deliver?
Overall it feels to me we're being asked to buy a new car without being allowed a test drive.
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I'll tell what has changed in the last few years. We all worked particularly hard last year, but were paid the flying pay allowance based on the year before. This meant that BA saved a small fortune because we were effectively underpaid. The system means that this year, we should be paid for last year's hard work, but we'll be doing less flying this year because the pilot numbers are more realistic. BA have recognised that they can save by going back to the old system this year because they won't have to pay us the extras due to last year's enforced extra work. Also, sickness rates have increased since the new system of pay came into effect. What they don't recognise is that when people are forced to work harder, sickness is bound to increase. If you need a day off and you're going to get final assigned if you bid for that day off and then have the spotlight on you if you go sick for the trip, then most 'humans' would actively bid to work on the day they need off, with the knowledge that they can go sick without the spotlight on them. As a result, many people have stopped bidding for the days off they need - using sickness to achieve it instead. This is a problem the company would of course like to sort out, but it has nothing to do with whether people are paid £9 an hour flying rate or whether it's a fixed monthly payment.
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In all honesty, even back during the last vote, I recognised that both new rostering systems are identical in all respects, except for how much they will cost BA. The currently planned system will have optimisation which if BA gets its act together, will produce precisely the same rosters as the new proposed system. The only advantage with sticking with the current plan is that we all know they will cut corners with their software to save a penny, which will of course cost a pound in inefficiencies which would work in our favour.
I've personally spent very little time worrying about the new systems - I've hardly even read what little literature we've been given. The one BALPA has recommended is coming, and I'll learn how to use it when it arrives.
I've personally spent very little time worrying about the new systems - I've hardly even read what little literature we've been given. The one BALPA has recommended is coming, and I'll learn how to use it when it arrives.
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Slightly worrying reading, given that I start in 10 days...
Will the PBS system get rid of the CAP system and considerably limit the ability to swap? Will it get rid of overtime?
I've spent the last few years on 5/4/5/3 and it's not ideal either. The days off never seem to fall when I need them. The ability to build CAP credit and swap was a factor in my decision to de-orange. Hope it's not all going away...
Will the PBS system get rid of the CAP system and considerably limit the ability to swap? Will it get rid of overtime?
I've spent the last few years on 5/4/5/3 and it's not ideal either. The days off never seem to fall when I need them. The ability to build CAP credit and swap was a factor in my decision to de-orange. Hope it's not all going away...
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The CAP system is still going to exist in some format or other because part of the deal is a change to annual CAP. Swapping is the main problem. I think a theoretical ability to swap will still exist, however when everyone is working efficiently with minimum days off inbetween trips, it will be very difficult to organise swapping of trips in order to obtain different days off to the ones you have been rostered.