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Roster assign was the brainchild of at least one of our Canadian commuting BALPA guys (despite various unofficial polls being strongly against the idea). It was his belief that a pilot would have a bit more time to swap such a trip to a more suitable date when compared to the old forced draft, and therefore it was better. The thing is, EOT swapping is now so restrictive that it's nigh on impossible to swap that additional trip, and you haven't got any space left on your line to swap it to anyway! It does however mean that the company can now tell a pilot to go jump when they say they can't do the trip due to childcare, because they've had plenty of time to sort something. This means the company can rely on the work being covered using the system, and they can therefore run with far fewer pilots. In my opinion, roster assign is the equivalent detriment to BA pilots as all of the changes we've experienced in the last 15 years all added together!
A question, do BA's 777 rated pilots also fly the 787, and if not, what is the reason?
The reason generally given by those in the know is that it's down to costs/scheduling of any required differences course and then costs of maintaining recency and scheduling between the two. As a result the company believe that it's financially more efficient to run the fleets separately for the line guys, rather than combine. Once the 787 fleet is up to size it will be a significant fleet in it's own right so I guess the company POV may well be valid.
That said there has beeen a request for some of the 787 pilots with previous 777 time to come back to the 77 this summer due to workload on the fleet...not sure if they got any takers..
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So in summary, BA is a great place to work if you have sufficient coping strategies in place - buy a Ford Fiesta, don't upgrade your Casio watch, enjoy your own company and join Netflix (because you'd rather be watching a movie on duty than be at home with your family). All TIC of course! However, these are not really unique selling points that are going to attract experienced professional pilots.
I agree completely with GS-Alpha's post above re: RA. The same group of commuting BALPA reps are currently busy trying to convince BA to get an alleviation to EASA FTLs regarding back-to-back trips. The price to pay for the rest of the community will be to allow BA to RA back-to-back trips. (My understanding is that reps cannot be RA'd). So once again, less chance of getting that 1 day off that you need.
Smooth Airperator - with regards to turning down courses, well I did it myself years ago so why not? It's a sellers market right now. One thing to remember though, is that BA can, have and will move people between fleets within their first 5 years. I have flown with F/Os who joined on the 777 only to be told on day 1 of groundschool that they were now going to the A320. Wherever you end up your first 5 years will race by and you'll still progress up the master seniority list. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
I agree completely with GS-Alpha's post above re: RA. The same group of commuting BALPA reps are currently busy trying to convince BA to get an alleviation to EASA FTLs regarding back-to-back trips. The price to pay for the rest of the community will be to allow BA to RA back-to-back trips. (My understanding is that reps cannot be RA'd). So once again, less chance of getting that 1 day off that you need.
Smooth Airperator - with regards to turning down courses, well I did it myself years ago so why not? It's a sellers market right now. One thing to remember though, is that BA can, have and will move people between fleets within their first 5 years. I have flown with F/Os who joined on the 777 only to be told on day 1 of groundschool that they were now going to the A320. Wherever you end up your first 5 years will race by and you'll still progress up the master seniority list. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Feel better about joining now. Cheers guys!
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3 or 4 excellent and detailed posts over the last 2 pages. Thank you guys very useful to get such insights.
It seems to me the short haul roster is the elephant in the room in terms of problems in the airline making SH an unhappy place with command getting very junior as people prefer to escape to LH. The short haul roster also seems to be the main stumbling point for potential would be applicants.! I gather many easyjet pilots won't touch BA primary due to the state of BA short haul operations (not the slower command).
But my question is, why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc. I struggle to see how unions can be solely to blame for aircraft changes and poorly constructed "slings" around Europe. Coming from a low cost background it screams out poor efficiency and poor crew/aircraft utilisation. All this means time on the ground, which normally means less money and less profit.
It seems to me the short haul roster is the elephant in the room in terms of problems in the airline making SH an unhappy place with command getting very junior as people prefer to escape to LH. The short haul roster also seems to be the main stumbling point for potential would be applicants.! I gather many easyjet pilots won't touch BA primary due to the state of BA short haul operations (not the slower command).
But my question is, why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc. I struggle to see how unions can be solely to blame for aircraft changes and poorly constructed "slings" around Europe. Coming from a low cost background it screams out poor efficiency and poor crew/aircraft utilisation. All this means time on the ground, which normally means less money and less profit.
why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc.
I think a lot of it is generally explained away down to the need to integrate Short Haul Ops with the Long Haul Stuff and the whys of wherefores of not being a point to point operation. Some would say there's no point in banging out 4 quick sectors for efficiencies sake that don't "fit" with the long haul programme, not sure that's true but certainly that's what's said.
IMHO many would agree the union's shouldn't completely carry the can for all of this... OTOH you mentioned the frequent Cabin Crew changes..well, less said
OTOH... then there's also the sheer built inefficency of operating out of LHR, holding, etc.....
Oh did I mention management's role in the above .....
Last edited by wiggy; 25th Jun 2015 at 14:05. Reason: have.....not of
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Smooth Airperator...
Pretty Ballsy what you posted. You have to make your own decision but this yarn might help you decide.
Going back a few years, but here goes:
1974, turns down a S/O position to await F/O position. Three weeks later the downturn hits all courses cancelled.... He was told as soon as hiring resumes he would be on course.
1978 "Remember Me"... "Yes, Sorry too old."
Laws changed re age discrimination, gets hired in 1985 as a S/O.... Retires as a LH wide body F/O rather than a LH wide body Captain. Pension could have been 30 years based on his best five years at Captains pay instead, maybe 20 based on F/O pay
Does not take a genius to figure out the financial and seniority loss.
PS.... He also took a 2 year layoff in the early 90's....
Pretty Ballsy what you posted. You have to make your own decision but this yarn might help you decide.
Going back a few years, but here goes:
1974, turns down a S/O position to await F/O position. Three weeks later the downturn hits all courses cancelled.... He was told as soon as hiring resumes he would be on course.
1978 "Remember Me"... "Yes, Sorry too old."
Laws changed re age discrimination, gets hired in 1985 as a S/O.... Retires as a LH wide body F/O rather than a LH wide body Captain. Pension could have been 30 years based on his best five years at Captains pay instead, maybe 20 based on F/O pay
Does not take a genius to figure out the financial and seniority loss.
PS.... He also took a 2 year layoff in the early 90's....
Last edited by FLCHG; 25th Jun 2015 at 19:56.
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Locked door - I'm curious, but on what basis can you claim that the silent majority PREFER roster/force assign?! That s a pretty bold claim, particularly as the majority are silent. I ve been FAd 4 times and know plenty of others who ve been Fd over......
Absolutely, Sid, Roster Assign is definitely a backward step for me each and every month. Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare. In 10 years I've never been Force Assigned but every month the spectre of Roster Assign rears its head. Furthermore, with RA it is now almost impossible to guarantee a day off so everyone bids high, works harder, less time off etc etc etc. Not sure how Locked Door knows that the "silent majority" thinks if they're that silent.
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This is an interesting post, and some excellent information given by Chief Brody and Wiggy.
Its funny, since leaving education and spending 11 years working in industry doing so called 'normal jobs', BA is really no different from any other company I have ever worked for. They all want more for less, drive down the T's and C's over time and dont seem to have any regard for looking after its employees to motivate them. Sadly, like a lot of things in life, making as much money as possible seems to be the driving factor.
I joined BA from Bmi in 2012 with the IAG transition and have seen a lot of change in those 3 years. As much as I enjoyed Bmi, towards the end I was always looking over my shoulder wondering what Lufthansa were going to do next. I have found the job security element in BA to be refreshing and positive. Since I have been in BA there have been around 400 new joiners, DEP's onto long haul, and there are one hell of a lot of command courses going through at the moment, to which some of my old friends/colleagues from Bmi are being promoted. Its great to see the guys in the crew room with there new jackets!
I think there is a lot to be said for the opinions you will get from people in this thread. Guys, through no fault of their own, that have been in BA for 20 plus years, will certainly have a different outlook of what is good and what is bad, purely down to the fact is they do no know any different. Coming from a slightly different angle myself, I dont think it is a bad place to be. There is a lot of opportunity within the airline if you want it. Even though the company have put restrictions on our swapping system, I have found crewing to be flexible and helpful where they can to satisfy your requests. I was force assigned for the first time this month, but in all fairness its the first time I have been done in 12 months and am taking one for the team.
With regard to the CC, 9 times out of 10, I found them to be fine. I try and treat people as I wish to be treated, and the majority of the time the guys and gals to to be receptive to that. I found it quite amusing when I first joined the horror on peoples faces when I took the time to visit the back of the aircraft to introduce myself, it came across of not being the 'done thing'. Its been mentioned already, but a lot of time all the crews you fly with throughout the day are all doing different things, even within their own team, so night stops are often spent with your colleague, or on your own.
In a nutshell, I dont think BA is a bad place to be, however I am easily satisfied.
If you do decide to join, I hope you enjoy it.
Its funny, since leaving education and spending 11 years working in industry doing so called 'normal jobs', BA is really no different from any other company I have ever worked for. They all want more for less, drive down the T's and C's over time and dont seem to have any regard for looking after its employees to motivate them. Sadly, like a lot of things in life, making as much money as possible seems to be the driving factor.
I joined BA from Bmi in 2012 with the IAG transition and have seen a lot of change in those 3 years. As much as I enjoyed Bmi, towards the end I was always looking over my shoulder wondering what Lufthansa were going to do next. I have found the job security element in BA to be refreshing and positive. Since I have been in BA there have been around 400 new joiners, DEP's onto long haul, and there are one hell of a lot of command courses going through at the moment, to which some of my old friends/colleagues from Bmi are being promoted. Its great to see the guys in the crew room with there new jackets!
I think there is a lot to be said for the opinions you will get from people in this thread. Guys, through no fault of their own, that have been in BA for 20 plus years, will certainly have a different outlook of what is good and what is bad, purely down to the fact is they do no know any different. Coming from a slightly different angle myself, I dont think it is a bad place to be. There is a lot of opportunity within the airline if you want it. Even though the company have put restrictions on our swapping system, I have found crewing to be flexible and helpful where they can to satisfy your requests. I was force assigned for the first time this month, but in all fairness its the first time I have been done in 12 months and am taking one for the team.
With regard to the CC, 9 times out of 10, I found them to be fine. I try and treat people as I wish to be treated, and the majority of the time the guys and gals to to be receptive to that. I found it quite amusing when I first joined the horror on peoples faces when I took the time to visit the back of the aircraft to introduce myself, it came across of not being the 'done thing'. Its been mentioned already, but a lot of time all the crews you fly with throughout the day are all doing different things, even within their own team, so night stops are often spent with your colleague, or on your own.
In a nutshell, I dont think BA is a bad place to be, however I am easily satisfied.
If you do decide to join, I hope you enjoy it.
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From what I can see rostering is a mess. Guys are getting pulled off flight because they are hitting 900hrs or are out of the rolling 28day limit etc.
I thought I best check my yearly rolling total because I feel pretty tired and ground down........727
I think I will just continue to hide where I am in the hope that rostering don't find me anytime soon. PS....full time
10% ish of the p2 Airbus fleet were force assigned trips this month
I thought I best check my yearly rolling total because I feel pretty tired and ground down........727
I think I will just continue to hide where I am in the hope that rostering don't find me anytime soon. PS....full time10% ish of the p2 Airbus fleet were force assigned trips this month
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Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare
Megaton
A common and I guess justified observation.
For those that don't know what some are complaining about: Under the new system for most fleets the July rosters were finally finalised
on or around the the 23rd/24th June. Until then anyone on a fulltime month with no pre-existing duties (e.g Sims) or leave/Duty Free Weeks in the month had absolutely zero visibility of their guaranteed days off in July.
Anson
The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.
Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare. In 10 years I've never been Force Assigned but every month the spectre of Roster Assign rears its head.
For those that don't know what some are complaining about: Under the new system for most fleets the July rosters were finally finalised
on or around the the 23rd/24th June. Until then anyone on a fulltime month with no pre-existing duties (e.g Sims) or leave/Duty Free Weeks in the month had absolutely zero visibility of their guaranteed days off in July.
isn't it better to have at least a week's notice to arrange your childcare than no notice at all?
The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.
Last edited by wiggy; 26th Jun 2015 at 11:22. Reason: spellin'
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Still, what ho, nothing ventured etc etc.
As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.
What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.
As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.
What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.
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The biggest problem with the new system is that it enables BA to force overtime on a pilot even though they are already working above CAP. It basically prevents anyone from daring to try to have a bit of time off in one go. Yes you might be lucky and get away with it, but the likelihood is that you will not. Blind lines on long haul with the rules of a minimum of two days off between trips are basically gone, because they just build the roster according to that rule and then adjust it as they see fit once that rule no longer applies at the roster assign phase. Frankly, I don't even know why they bother to produce the final roster for blind line holders. Why tell someone what they could have had under the old system, only to take it away from them a few days later? I was force drafted a fair few times (met at aircraft for work the following day), and I've been roster assigned a fair few times too. I far preferred the old system with a little fear factor after the odd flight, rather than the fear factor every time you make an alteration to a bid; trying to second guess the best strategy to get that one day off you need. Plus this new system allows BA to employ considerably fewer pilots. It really must be a dream come true for them. How else do you think they can afford clash and protect and more!
To add insult to injury, it is now the case that if you volunteer to pick up overtime from EOT, you get paid more than twice what someone who has been forced to work will be paid (clash and protect having become the new norm).
If the majority are happy with this new system then I'd be happier, but I don't believe it to be the case.
To add insult to injury, it is now the case that if you volunteer to pick up overtime from EOT, you get paid more than twice what someone who has been forced to work will be paid (clash and protect having become the new norm).
If the majority are happy with this new system then I'd be happier, but I don't believe it to be the case.
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Still, what ho, nothing ventured etc etc.
As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.
What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.
As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.
What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.
The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.
I'm not trying to be flippant btw - just trying to understand the issues.