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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 7th Jun 2019, 09:14
  #6241 (permalink)  
 
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I understand there’s a certain amount of “doing your time” / earning your command etc but I struggle to see how one would enjoy the early years of their command having their well established home life totally ruined. Or am I missing something? Are the command lines somehow better?

Edit: obviously I’m talking about the situation where you join RHS long haul, and wait the full time to swap to LHS. I suppose swapping to the 320 would improve things a bit with all the junior commands recently.
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 10:03
  #6242 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Busdriver01


My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you.

My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again?
Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS.

JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more.

In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare.

All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours.
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 11:26
  #6243 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t know if this information is of any use but purely as a point of interest, in the last seven years, recruitment (and the bmi takeover) has been such that just over one third of BA pilots today have been in the company for seven years or less. If you’d joined straight after the takeover, this is where you could be today in approximate percentage terms from the top of each list:
Gatwick Airbus: Captain 65%, FO <5%
Heathrow Airbus: Captain 95%, FO 10-15%
747 FO 50-55%
777 FO 65-70%
787 FO 60-65%
A380 FO 80-85%
As the A350 is a new, and growing, fleet no meaningful data will be available for quite some time. This information is a statistical snapshot and should not be taken to mean that if you join now, this is what you can achieve in seven years.



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Old 7th Jun 2019, 19:07
  #6244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RHS


Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS.

JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more.

In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare.

All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours.
I know this will probably have been asked a million times and depends on personal circumstances / desires etc etc etc but I find myself at a bit of a crossroads and I’m not sure what to do.

I fly for a British loco, A320, which has reasonable financial security so long term will likely survive. I’m 23 and have an ATPL. Command at my current job could be as early as 2.5/3 years from now - 26 years old. If that happens I’ll be earning £140k.

On one hand I think that opportunity is too good to miss - get all of my debt paid off, buy a house and be mortgage free relatively early in in life. Then the opportunity to go part time is readily available, just in time for the midlife crisis. On the other hand I think maybe I shouldn’t get suckered in by the golden handcuffs - I’m young and single and should probably go and try long haul (if I can get in of course).


What are peoples thoughts? Accept that for the next 10 years I’d be living a junior long haul life, then be senior, then get command and be junior again, and not earn as much in the process, (also who knows what long haul lifestyle will actually be like in 15 years time - think min rest down route everywhere...) or take the golden handcuffs, earn far more for the next 18 years (I’ve done the numbers, 18 years is the minimum for BA to overtake where I am atm) and then go part time and enjoy life with my family, seeing the world in my own time with the people I want to?
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 21:35
  #6245 (permalink)  
 
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You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with!
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 21:57
  #6246 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with!
The difficulty is that this decision ultimately decides how the rest of my career (Read: life) pans out. Though I infer that you mean staying at my current loco would be to do “the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years”?
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 23:10
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Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.

The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June.

Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH.

Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO)
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Old 7th Jun 2019, 23:42
  #6248 (permalink)  
 
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You need to be about a third of the way up the list on any fleet to start having reasonable control (i.e. days off or trips of choice, not both).
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 01:19
  #6249 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?
Our pay system is totally unlike the (more or less) flat salary that you'd get at BA. That leads to different work rules. Let's say I'm on a narrowbody, and have 4 trips this month, each 4 days long. If staffing permits, I can drop any of those trips. With each dropped trip, my pay goes down by 25%. If I'd still like to make that money, I can find other higher value trips so that my pay is restored.

Depending on a number of factors (seniority being paramount among them), you can end the month with no pay credit, or up to triple your monthly guarantee. Even within a fleet, there's significant variation in the pay and time off that each pilot gets, which will depend on his/her goals for the month.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 06:30
  #6250 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.

The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June.

Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH.

Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO)
Funny that is. Know of lots of pilots in the top 40% on the SH Airbus list who will have the opportunity to go LH next year since their engagement freeze is over and have decided not to bid in this years PRIAM bid. All of them wanted to go LH as soon as possible when they joined BA with 1000's of hours in previous airlines. Now they have the chance to go LH they elect to stay for a bit longer on SH while more new people get recruited onto LH and therefor when they do jump get more seniority and therefor say about their rosters.

For me personally the good thing about BA is that there is no fixed roster pattern and you can do with your roster what you prefer. I like to work long blocks with little days off in between so in return I get longer blocks off as well. Saying BA is lightyears behind with rostering is a bit like the discussion on Yammer where a FO had a massive go at crew food and particularly the cold breakfast on SH which he deemed an inappropriate breakfast because HE didn't like it.

Last edited by Jumbo2; 8th Jun 2019 at 10:40.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 09:28
  #6251 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 09:34
  #6252 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open.
Sound advice for anyone joining BA. And after 319 pages so concludes this thread!
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 10:33
  #6253 (permalink)  
 
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Bid hasn't even closed yet- why don't we look at what people have actually bid for when its published? We all say/do different things.

Those you mention finishing their freezes now joined at the start of a huge recruitment drive, with new numbers they must be sitting around 3300-3500. We are now up to around 4300 on the MSL. Are you telling me you think there will be a similar amount of movement in the next 5 years? When BA have made cost cutting an absolute priority, why would they pay for another course? Just because your freeze is up doesn't entitle you to a course. With all the LH DEP where is the capacity for moving from airbus to long haul going to come from?

It is not that I 'don't like' BA's rostering. Why is it that Norweigan/Ryanair both work 5/4 , EZY work 5/4/5/3 and have significant protections on random roster? Yet I can, and do, 6 days on 1 day off. My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there? I appreciate the ability to bunch work together, but we shouldn't be rostered these crazy patterns. It is not safe. IF you want to bunch your work together and have more time off elsewhere, great. But it should be our choice.

Joining now you will not see the movement of 'all these pilots' you know that enjoy SH so much they want to stay. Sitting top 20% on a list after 4 years is unheard of, and under JSS, you pick and choose your work. That wont be the case for anyone joining now. If you enjoy spending your weekends sat in pret in T5 waiting for aeroplanes by all means accept a short haul offer. If you have a life outside of work, think very carefully before you give up what you have.

Grass greener?
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 10:48
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Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there?
5 days off in a month is all you got in June with no NCP, OT or standovers is that what you are saying?

You really have to learn how to bid under JSS if you are a few years (2+) in and that is what you get. Your view and my view differ pretty much 180 degrees on seniority and joining on SH. As I said lots of times before, joining SH at least you climb the seniority ladder while joining on LH you will not climb and could even go back on the seniority ladder for at least 5 years.

Having worked at non seniority airlines before, seeing how seniority works at BA it keeps things fair and very transparent. It also has the added benefit that we don’t have direct entry captains and if people join as LH FO by the time the more senior SH pilots joins the fleet they will enjoy more roster satisfaction.

Last edited by Jumbo2; 9th Jun 2019 at 15:33.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 12:17
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I suppose my question is, do the perceived benefits of the more varied career at BA outweigh the potential negative aspects of a seniority based airline? Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen?

Also, for those who have flown both SH and LH, is long haul really that much better? People always say that flying round Europe for 30 years would be boring but is flying round the world constantly jet lagged and staying in the same hotels actually that much better once the honeymoon period has worn off?
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 14:11
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Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen?
what gives you the idea we are at the back end?
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 14:54
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Originally Posted by VinRouge


what gives you the idea we are at the back end?

​​​​​​OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 15:20
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Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg
​​​​​​OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.
The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 16:12
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Originally Posted by VinRouge


The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon.
Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable.
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Old 8th Jun 2019, 16:37
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Originally Posted by RexBanner


Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable.
first I’ve heard of anyone being given long haul pay for being a p2 waif? Really?
Passover pay only applies to commands out of seniority, and even then it’s on a one for one basis; and not to every single passed over pilot.
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