BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Enzo999]

Originally Posted by OBK!

The youth/junior was to separate the two, not put them in the same bracket.

Enzo if you find the seniority system offensive how is it you came to join? You did your research as to what to expect beforehand surely? Was it a case of getting in and then wanting to change it? What do you expect 16 years at another airline to actually give you in BA?

I wouldn’t compare that part to any other profession. But if it was the same and a senior surgeon made his own choice to leave and join again at the bottom....yes, your choice, live with it. It’s not the companies fault.

What if that Surgeon had to leave because the hospital he was working at closed, would that still be his fault, would it still be fair enough that his personal life was destroyed? Anyway you nicely sum up the I am alright jack attitude that exists in BA. JSS, PP34, BARP etc etc etc all introduced by your beloved company all of which adversely effect junior guys, but hey it’s not their fault it’s mine for joining.

[GS-Alpha]

Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isn’t quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.

[bex88]

OKB, unfortunately you do reflect the attitude of this company and it stinks.

Seniority has its place but it should not be used as a weapon or on anything which so fundamentally affects the day to day lives of any pilot.

I fly with with a lot of guys who have life experience, some have lots of flying experience and are here because of need rather than choice. Many of our junior pilots have come from other professions where they contributed so much more to the world than what they ever will do as a pilot and quite honestly some treat them like dirt.

The whole argument of i did my time does not stack up. The world has changed, we fly a lot more. Hell 15 years ago I could drive past Heathrow on the M25 at 15:00 on a Friday and not be stuck in a traffic jam. Some will be junior for a long time, others less so.

I am not saying and I don’t think anyone else is saying that we should reinvent the wheel but the opportunity to change the gradient has been taken and it has only increased it. We should be looking to have a balanced reward for seniority but a acceptance of the needs for all. We are talking about pilots who are hiding stress, depression and family break downs because of the damage our rostering system does.

As enzo999 hinted not everyone chose to join and not everyone is afforded the luxury of seniority that you talk of.

Rex is a top bloke, or girl, I am never sure which so lay off and just try and understand a position other than your own.

[RexBanner]

I’m never sure either Bex, I’ve just used the girlfriend’s strawberry scented shampoo (it’s glorious) and have started buying scented candles so it’s getting ever more confusing! I’m sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then I’m going to respond. I’d never deny I’m guilty of moaning but generally it’s stuff which I’ve got every right to, company treating you like a pariah and targeting my lifestyle personally just for taking a 35 minute flight to work instead of driving an hour and a half on the motorway. That’s the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, which it should. Nobody is saying you senior guys should start working every weekend again, but at least giving the junior one or two every once in a while might be nice. The fact that you consider such a thought abominable speaks volumes as Bex says.

[Wireless]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then I’m going to respond

I don’t think anyone was pointing the blame of that one on you mate

[Tay Cough]

Originally Posted by bex88

Pickled. I am sure someone will be along shortly to remind you that it was your choice to take a command and you could have stayed in the RHS bla bla bla.

Pickled speaks volumes of our system. Someone who has been in BA for 20 plus years and still finds themselves junior and with worse rostering than in the past.

Similar position. Similar JSS outcome. When you seemingly become more junior, the goalposts have been moved based upon a career decision you may have made several years ago. Seriously considering life outside BA now. Just need to convince Mrs Cough that her life will be acceptable with me working abroad.

...not everyone chose to join...

Don’t be ridiculous. There’s no conscription into BA. Yes, some joined by default due to mergers (such as CFE or BMI) and decided to stay but no-one was forced.

[Wireless]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

. That’s the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, .

Thats an important thing. It’s quite common for seniors in industry (not just at BA) to vote out things that affect those behind them, creating a divided workforce. The Chickens do come home to roost eventually..

Becomes a real problem when firms start captilising and offering split deals.

Recruit a generation of juniors with B scales pensions, pay points and exposure to junior working on a roster system they didn’t vote for. Give it a while to cultivate a toxic “them and us” atmosphere fuelled by the same seniors who voted their changes telling juniors to shut their gobs, and it’s a breeding ground for disaster. For everyone.

Recruit enough juniors in with union votes and guess what they’ll be voting for at the next split deal. Everyone starts plodding down a few steps. I’ve seen it happen. It’s one of the oldest tricks in the industrial black art hand book.

Never, ever sell out terms for those joining after you to protect your own. It bites you back as a workforce. It’s hapoened so many times in industry.

[Enzo999]

Originally Posted by GS-Alpha

Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isn’t quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.

Well it’s simple really, I needed a job that was not a contract position, my family are all very settled in the SE and I did not want to relocate them, I liked short haul flying so my options were very small and I naively thought how bad can it be.

Just for clarification it’s not the seniority system per se I find offensive, I understand it’s a nessecary evil. It’s the attitude it installs in others that their lives are somehow more important than mine, that my time and family are less valuable simply because I happened to join a company later.

The trouble is the seniorty system at BA is so deep routed and ingrained that it affects the very fabric of your life and it’s almost impossible to understand until you live with it. There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same “you knew what it was like before you joined” BS.

[NLP]

Rosters: Seniority gradient definitely steepened with JSS (I was happy with mine but I dont mind working weekends).
Commuting: Is being monitored and pilots receive warnings for sensible commutes.
Fatigue: Is only the responsibility of the pilot, not the company.
Salary: Falls short of other flag carriers.
Brexit: Weak pound, not great spending it in Euro's

I've been positive up to now and have reccommended people to join (just check my old posts). Few friends are in the final stages of the assessments and I'm really not sure what to reccommend them anymore. After 2,5 years BA has finally broken my positive spirit.

If a better opportunity comes I might take it.

[GS-Alpha]

There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same “you knew what it was like before you joined” BS.

I am not shouting at anyone, and it is not BS, it is factually the way it is, for better or worse. The majority always wins, and since seniority is one system which is always going to benefit the majority, it is a near impossible thing to change. I will soon be right back down the bottom again in the left hand seat. I cannot be bitter about that though, because I can always choose not to do it.

[Ron Swanson]

I only come on to PPRUNE to see if people are moaning about the same things I'm moaning about. But now people are moaning about the moaning; well I would like to be the first to moan about the people moaning about the people moaning.

Do I win £5?

PS being junior at BA is sh1t but eventually it fades away. But PLEASE tell me again how much better the old guys had it when you joined, can't hear that enough.

[MikeAlpha320]

Originally Posted by OBK!

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

If you’re bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. You’ve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.

Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself.

[OBK!]

Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320

Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself.

My overtime comment wasn’t serious, neither was root canal....

You seem to have me as someone senior, I’m very much not, by choice. All weekends worked (hopefully on lates now though with JSS, not really in trip line territory) and BARP contributor from the start. Redundant from previous outfit too if that helps, so you could say I was ‘forced’ to join BA as well. But I won’t use that term, I made a choice given my situation. Neither will new joiner friends of mine, they chose BA and are perfectly happy with how the seniority system works. PP34 is a bitter pill I get that (so was giving up NAPS for those senior folk, for a couple of extra % on DC scheme) but the alternative may have been worse. BA ain’t all that and I’m in the fight to make it better, but if I’m fed up and miserable to the extent of some of the people I fly with make out, I’d definitely consider moving on. Or change fleets/seats/destinations/base.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

The regulations talk about people whose journey to work usually exceeds 90 minutes. BA have targeted people whose journey takes less than this, I know that for a fact. A few Amsterdam commuters have received phone calls for instance. easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not so let’s not pretend that this is mandated by the regulator.

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

I’ve flown with a captain who drove down same morning from Manchester for an early LHR report. Yet the commuter who spends 8h 52m in base overnight having flown in that evening from Amsterdam gets the sh*tty phone call whilst he walks around with impunity. There is nothing right about that scenario and yet it is going on all the time.

Rex the 90 minutes assumes a car journey. One of the AOC's mentioned above did a trial of crew members driving in a car simulator after a night flight. It filmed them as they started micro sleeping. So your correct the Captain from Manchester is the biggest risk unless your driving for 4 hours after your plane home. BA's operation is completely different depending on what flights / schedules are being operated. Lets say your doing a 2100 to JFK - will you be flying in mid afternoon and hanging around the crew room for hours or will you fly in the morning and be tucked up in bed having a nap before the flight. BA can't mandate that only you under crew members responsibilities and your professionalism can.

[RexBanner]

Assumes a car journey yes I agree. However seeing as there’s absolutely nothing written down as to what constitutes an acceptable commute by air, you have to assume the same applies. The problem is as Wiggy has said in the past, so I have to credit him with this particular example, you could get up at the crack of sparrows to fly into Heathrow and sit around the CRC for 12 hours before operating a long haul flight in the evening and tick every box of what EASA says constitutes proper rest, yet we know doing that you’d be laughably tired. What’s wrong with treating us like proper professionals and allowing us to judge what is sensible? Yes some people take the mick but take those individuals to one side and deal with them. Don’t band them together with all of us and treat the rest of us like naughty children. That’s all I’m arguing. I’ve done a drive from Birmingham to Heathrow to go to work (90 mins) and I’ve taken a flight from Jersey to Gatwick to go to work (I think everyone knows who I am by now) and I know which journey I felt more tired after (rhetorical).

[Thegreenmachine]

Originally Posted by VOR.DME

At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), I’ve just been told I’m in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!

Was in the pool for a few weeks before being lifted out for 320 at lhr.

​​​​​​As you were.

[tommytailwind]

Originally Posted by Enzo999

You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a “youth”. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children it’s much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to “suck it up” or “leave” is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one don’t care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesn’t he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to “suck it up”.

Enzo, are you sure you joined BA with 16 years of airline flying behind you? Thought you were at flightschool with me back in 2005/06. Anyway, I completely agree with you. I joined BA longhaul from an easyJet command with a young family and cannot express strongly enough how difficult life can be joining BA in those circumstances. As a warning to anyone considering joining if you're married with kids - think long and hard. Money is of secondary importance and lifestyle is of primary importance. If you're single, enjoy the opportunities BA has to offer. If you're not, you may well end up regretting your decision. I did a 180 and returned to easyJet after a few months of fatigue and stress that would undoubtedly have lead to (and this is no exaggeration) being at best on the edge of depression and I haven't regretted my decision for a second. The introduction of JSS will only make things worse. I feel a different individual back at Easy despite the challenges of a shorthaul roster. The 3-4 days off between blocks of work and fixed roster are fantastic in terms of being able to recover.

Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.

Very good concise advice.

Regarding JSS. There is a huge amount of negativity out there. Put simply, if you want to write your own roster and have lots of weekends off then you will perpetually be pissed off with life as an airline pilot. Whoever you work for. Most negative reviews are down to a perceived loss of control over what you are bidding for as we now lack visibility of the actual lines of work that are on offer. The principle of seniority hasn’t changed though, and the simple rule is the lower down you are the less control you will have regardless of how the work is bid for.

In BA if you are junior you will, to some degree, shovel manure for a few years, depending on how quickly recruitment takes place and which fleet you are on. Then you will have a series of choices to make over your career that will affect your seniority. If you choose DEP LH or an early command on SH you will be consigning yourself to being junior for a longer period of time than the “average”.

None of this is news. It’s fairly common knowledge for new recruits if you do your homework.

As Tommytailwind has said be careful with your reasons for joining. I applaud anyone with the wherewithal to quit and go back to ezy etc if they find it really doesn’t work for them. If you find life here isn’t for you, look elsewhere. I agree that it is rubbish at the bottom. BA management don’t think so because people are queuing up to join and not enough vote with their feet when they find the job doesn’t work for them, because when it comes down to it admitting you have stuffed up and going back to an ex-employer cap in hand is difficult.

In summary, I really don’t think, from a new joiners point of view, that a lot has changed. We’ve had one roster under JSS. I do however understand the gripes and confusion from more established pilots. It will take time to figure out if things are better or worse than life under the previous system. My feeling is it won’t make much difference. We still have the same amount of work to cover. The variable will ALWAYS be how many pilots we have to cover that work. How we bid for it and who gets what has always been driven by seniority. It still is.

[Capt Ecureuil]

OK I'll pip in.

What is this "Toxic Atmosphere" that a few post about? Is it the management, the training department, or fellow crew?

Nearly 30 years in I still remember joining with many thousand hours at the bottom of the most senior fleet, twas the way that it is was then and always has been, perhaps because we didn't have the internet there wasn't so much bitching.

Just to add in all those years there is only one guy that I wouldn't shake hands with after a trip.

[Mansnothot]

Originally Posted by VOR.DME

At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), I’ve just been told I’m in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!

I got word that I passed the sim on the Monday and got called for A320 Heathrow that Thursday. Don’t know if there’s any particular base that you are more likely to get. I have heard of people getting offered one, and after asking for it they got the other. Hope that helps. Take care!