BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Doug E Style]

Originally Posted by cessnapete

Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs.

I don’t know much about 380 ops so can I ask how much of that would be bunk time?

[pilotpete123]

Thank you for everyones continued contribution to this thread. Its proving invaluable to those of us either thinking of applying or who are in the recruitment process.

Would people now consider commuting from a BA served regional UK city as a junior LH pilot as pretty much impossible now with the apparent crack down on travel before duty and the recent roster system changes?

[Wireless]

Originally Posted by dirk85

I was going to say, the t&c already were far from attractive already, but after reading of how fatigue is handled in BA compared to my current employer... well, I see no point in applying at all.

Hi Dirk.

Just for me to be balanced. I didn’t personally have a very positive experience with the “F” word. But as I mentioned that really could be just my experience with the person I spoke to. People being people and all. As I mentioned there’s some folk on here who’ve equally had good experiences with it. I don’t think anyone is making the leap to say the system is definitely handled “badly”. That would be a bit of a sweeping statement and very hard to say unless Balpa took a straw poll. They probably have an opinion as they take an interest in that sort of thing.

I have to be adult about it - I mentioned Easyjet. I bet there’s the odd person at Ej who didn’t have a good experience too.

As I mentioned there’s many very good sides to BA. It still can be a fasntastic place to work. Like anything that’s in flux the negatives can get a bit “polarising”. I do have to remind myself to keep perspective. A post above raised a good point about that.

its natural as it stems from frustration that a good thing is being eroded. Does it happen elsewhere? Yep. But doesn’t mean naturally we should watch it sail by. But equally, keep perspective about applying. It’s far from a sweatshop and still a fasnastic employer. Just things are a changing. Up to you naturally to judge it you want to risk the change and how that fits with your circumstances or wishlist.

[Wireless]

Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly

Aiminghigh,

you will never know unless you join.

I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things, does BA have issues, yes of course it does, but do I recognise the company that portrayed on here, no. nowhere is perfect (even Virgin guys and girls are talking strike action). What percentage of BA pilots leave for pastures new, probably more than a few years back but is that as much a sign of the way society is rather than the way the company is going?

There are 4300 pilots at BA only a dozen or so post on here complaining, that’s not saying the issues they are raising aren’t real and aren’t a concern but possibly they are being overly pessimistic. I truly believe that you could give pilots a new car to drive to a lap dancing bar for free dances and free beer and we would moan and want a BMW not a merc, lager not bitter and a blonde not a brunette.

Try and get a balanced view of the company rather than believe everything you read on here.

Before the usual suspects have a pop, I acknowledge the issues you raise and acknowledge the plethora of problems at BA it is far far from perfect but then is anywhere, a little positivity goes a long way in relieving stress.

VinRouge. With regards JSS I got my bid group 1, 15 days at work, 16 off with the trips I wanted (320). Don’t know if I’m lucky or not but happy with Jan, we will see what the rest of the year brings.....

Some good points raised there. And your post gave me something to think on.

You’re right it’s easy to go down the rabbit hole. I try and sit in the middle, but guilty of failing. I do try to keep balanced. It’s a yoyo as we all have limits.

I do think sitting back in acceptance isn’t the way (not for one minute inferring you yourself were saying that), and am very interested in what the union are doing. But that’s because I witnessed a more further down the line version of what’s happening here at a previous and know it can bite in the bum if you sleepwalk into it. So I suppose that can make one a little more jumpy than perhaps one needs be. Who knows.

At work I’m very positive myself. I think a lot of folk are. So it’s hard to gauge what folk really ruminate on about their working life in their personal time or what they really think.

So you’re right. It’s important to keep perspective. Yes things need to be done. But it’s far from a bad choice to work at. It’s more spotting the trend to stop it becoming a bad place.

If something was really bad and behind help (like a personal relationship to strike an analogy) then perhaps there’d be disinterest. It’s actually a good thing that people do care and are slightly animated. It points to that the place is actually, or was very good and they don’t want to see it go downhill I suppose. One way of looking at it I guess.

[bex88]

Icanseeclearly: is that full time or 75%? I would assume you have some bank and seniority which helps. The reality is it was always harder at the bottom but it seems to be getting worse.

I went all the way into the last stage of fall back and have nearly as much work with leave. At the bottom it is still blind lines but now loaded up

[Icanseeclearly]

Bex,

Thats full time, a bit of seniority but by no means senior. Out of interest I compared the Jan rosters under JSS with the Jan rosters from this year, both are busy but I didn’t see a big difference, of course the folk may not have got their bid group 1 and would have been on blind lines in Jan so it’s hard to say how happy they are.

i have acknowledged that BA has its issues and I most definitely have some problems with the way it is going and have some “red lines” that I am unwilling to accept but I am not going to allow it to dictate my outlook on life.

in the military when we deployed we had 3 types of people:

those who were very happy to be where they are and doing what they were doing (a small minority)
those who accepted the situation. Did their best and tried to have a positive outlook on life but were willing to speak up when things were a little awry.
And those who did nothing but moan (despite being volunteers) they made themselves miserable, made those around them miserable and had a difficult time of it.

life is too short to allow BA to grind me down, I don’t take it home and think a little positivity in life goes a long way.

[bex88]

Icanseeclearly. You talk a lot of sense. When in a rut it’s hard to get out of it without a real effort to focus on the positives rather than the details.

Part of the shock is because blindliness had TASS so it seem worse than it is at initial roster publication. I have to admit everyone has more say in what they want to do. Maybe not control of when but certainly more than a blind line. I thought JSS was going to be terrible but perhaps not. The work is just spread evenly and I can’t argue that it is more fair this way, even if I will work more.

Golden days are a real positive too.

Anyway far too much positivity from me 👍

[speed freek]

I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things

Never was a truer word said. Just like everyone on this thread is looking for a fresh start, why don't those same names look elsewhere? Plenty of airlines and plenty of opportunities.

I'm 3 years in on one of the longhaul fleets, so out of the honeymoon period and still very happy with my decision to come across. I was never going to get the lifestyle I currently enjoy, even going part time with my previous LCC employer.

I have reported fatigue, it was a tough month with high cap and roster assign. Now to look at it objectively, it was the middle of summer when every airline works you hard, roster assign is now a thing of the past and my personal experience was a good one. No one argued with my report and nor should they. There were many reasons why the CAPs were high, but there has also been and continues to be a lot of recruitment which will help deliver the lower CAPs promised in the move to JSS. Yes I still believe that will happen

Speaking of which, I'm just out of the bottom 10% on both the Master Seniority list and my Fleet's senioriy list. I got work in the days I asked for (due child care) and two west coast trips I would never have got under Bidline due my lack of seniority. Friends and colleagues within 500 places above and below me on several fleets all report similar levels of roster satisfaction.

The senior guys grumble about the pension. Personally it's not too different from any of my previous employers but the company contributions and Death in Service benefits are substantially better. PP34 is what it is. If you want money don't come here (frankly you're in the wrong industry) but the BALPA Pay claim is a good one, having actually spoken to the one of the new reps and hearing the CC's position.

The senior guys grumble about staff travel. I took my family to New York in Club for under £500.

The senior guys grumble about the company recruiting cruise pilots onto the 747 and making it harder to get the 3 man trips. The same guys grumble about how hard they're working. The Training Department is at capacity and this is seen as a way to bring relief onto the line quickly, with the rest of the training completed when there is slack in the system. What would you rather? Personally for me it's lower CAPs and maintaining the lifestyle balance.

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues. The latest missive saying you should be in the UK the day before departure to be properly rested is no different to my previous employer saying they want you back in base the day before a block of lates.

The senior guys grumble that only the managers at BA want to run the operation into the ground with cost cutting. eg. A manager's latest interview saying he would like to reduce time off downroute. Shock horror! A manager wants to make the staff work harder for the same pay. "Good grief, how terrible. This would never happen anywhere else"

A lot of grumbles from senior guys are from people who have been here a long time and haven't realised that what they're grumbling about isn't unique to BA. Take it all with a pinch of salt, it's PPruNe for Heaven's sake.

Feel free to PM me but if you want long haul, it's a good company and it's worth doing BA short haul as the ends justify the means. If you have a Command in a regional base and have no intention of wanting to fly long haul stay where you are. It's pretty simple really.

[BizJetJockey]

To change the drift of this current thread...is there anybody with a sim assessment in the near future who may be interested in pairing up to do some sim prep somewhere before the actual assessment?

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by speed freek

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues.

I’m sorry but that does not justify the company wading in and snooping on the private travel affairs of everybody. And it’s not just those taking the piss, it’s people making perfectly reasonable travel arrangements (in my opinion) who have received phone calls because they have fallen foul of some arbitrary rule for being in base a certain amount of time before a duty when all they have done is taken a 45 minute flight to Heathrow. A less fatiguing commute you could not find. I hasten to add this is not my experience but I’m generally in the same boat as the example in question and the only reason I have not had one of these phone calls is because I generally commute on another airline so am off their radar so to speak. I take exception to the overbearing and invasive handling of this issue and I make no apology for that.

I agree though that it’s a state of mind but the one big thing you could say for BA in the past was that if you kept your head down you’d be left alone, well the above shows that’s not so true anymore.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

Not only do you have the alleged intimidation of people filing fatigue reports you have the Kafka-esque invasion of privacy and spying on employees making their way to work in their own free time. Ask yourself carefully, is this the kind of employer I want?

Rex - unfortunately the regulation requires you to manage your commute and the AOC has a right to know. It can't be coincidence that the two UK Airlines who have had CAA approved FRMS for many years both have crew members commuting protocols. Its not just about crewmembers the AOC has a right to protect the brand. As always the AOC has to make "rules" to manage the 5% (much less at BA). Don't forget the biggest risk to Aircrew isn't on the aircraft unfortunately it's the drive home.

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley

Rex - unfortunately the regulation requires you to manage your commute and the AOC has a right to know. It can't be coincidence that the two UK Airlines who have had CAA approved FRMS for many years both have crew members commuting protocols. Its not just about crewmembers the AOC has a right to protect the brand. As always the AOC has to make "rules" to manage the 5% (much less at BA). Don't forget the biggest risk to Aircrew isn't on the aircraft unfortunately it's the drive home.

The regulations talk about people whose journey to work usually exceeds 90 minutes. BA have targeted people whose journey takes less than this, I know that for a fact. A few Amsterdam commuters have received phone calls for instance. easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not so let’s not pretend that this is mandated by the regulator.

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

I’ve flown with a captain who drove down same morning from Manchester for an early LHR report. Yet the commuter who spends 8h 52m in base overnight having flown in that evening from Amsterdam gets the sh*tty phone call whilst he walks around with impunity. There is nothing right about that scenario and yet it is going on all the time.

[speed freek]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not

They have and they do. Ask me how I know. Like yourself many staff there commute on other airlines to stay out of the spotlight.

[Tay Cough]

Originally Posted by VinRouge

Any more horror stories from the first JSS run?

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

[groundbum]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by groundbum

It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G

One simple issue with that, just because that’s where their registered address is, doesn’t mean that that’s where they’ve come from that morning/day. People can and do book hotels within spitting distance of T5 (information unavailable to BA due to all sorts of data protection laws). Short of fitting a GPS tracker to everyone’s car and monitoring that car in and out of the car park, it is impossible to know how anyone has made it into work that day unless they’ve travelled with British Airways on a flight.

[Stocious]

Originally Posted by Tay Cough

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

There are quite a few enviable rosters at the bottom of the list too. I'm going to go with the the learning curve of a new system throwing up shockers everywhere, give it a few months to bed in and for people to learn how to bid properly then see what happens.

[cessnapete]

Originally Posted by Doug E Style

I don’t know much about 380 ops so can I ask how much of that would be bunk time?

I’m only familiar with LR ops on B744.
A380 777 787 etc. just as fatiguing at 90/100 hrs a month whatever the type, and ops, ie SH out of Lhr.
Not sustainable on a continuous basis, and soon be reduced to regulating your fatigue by sickness etc.

[Jumbo2]

Originally Posted by Tay Cough

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

Not to sure about that statement. Of the people who contacted BALPA only approximately 1 out of 10 wasn't happy with the outcome of their JSS bidding. Quiet often because of a bidding mistake or misunderstanding because they simple didn't put in the work to learn and understand the new system even though plenty of opportunity was given to do so.

[wiggy]

Originally Posted by speed freek

The senior guys grumble about...

The senior guys grumble...

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues. The latest missive saying you should be in the UK the day before departure to be properly rested is no different to my previous employer saying they want you back in base the day before a block of lates.

BA is an “equal opportunity to grumble” company. I’m pretty senior, I have have heard a lots of “junior guys” grumbling, you OTOH say you are fairly junior ....funnily enough you have heard lots “senior guys” grumbling - I rest my case (and my aching back)....

On the specific issue of “commuting”: I gather the ability to commute from overseas was part of the recruiting team’s sales pitch when they put on their road shows in the not too distant past...(oh yes and apparently they also mentioned a “world leading rostering system”)...Guess What - I heard a grumble from a “junior guy” about that recently.

BTW I’m struggling to find any missive from BA saying you should be back in the U.K. the day before departure.

Overall though you are right, there is still good stuff in BA, but people do need to be aware of what they are letting themselves and possibly their family in for.