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Rex, as you chose to use the phrase "BALPA is sh!t scared of the company..." and then went on to spout nonsense on post intended for pilots considering joining the company, you won't find it surprising that I don't consider my comments to you terribly condescending and I certainly don't think you were talked down to "severely."
As for anonymity, I've gone by the name Buter (pronounced BOO-TER, by the way) since I was about 12 years old and my identity is no secret on here (or anywhere else, for that matter).
Twang - It's nowhere near as bad as I imagine you've heard. The training committee is indeed headed up by a LH TC, but there is a SH captain on the committee doing great work, too. As for some trainers threatening to leave, yes, I'm aware of the sentiment, but each member makes his/her own decision wrt resignation from the union. Pay talks have just started within BALPA, so we are just at the beginning of the process, I have no idea what the timeline is and wouldn't comment if I did; something like that would only come out through official comms.
DF - The reasons for my opinion have been discussed widely on this thread already. Pension, FA, Bidline, Pay, high CAP's, interpretation of EASA ftl's, etc.. I can't comment on our SH operation as I can't remember the last time I did a 2 crew sector, let alone a 2 hour sector!
Cheers
Buter
As for anonymity, I've gone by the name Buter (pronounced BOO-TER, by the way) since I was about 12 years old and my identity is no secret on here (or anywhere else, for that matter).
Twang - It's nowhere near as bad as I imagine you've heard. The training committee is indeed headed up by a LH TC, but there is a SH captain on the committee doing great work, too. As for some trainers threatening to leave, yes, I'm aware of the sentiment, but each member makes his/her own decision wrt resignation from the union. Pay talks have just started within BALPA, so we are just at the beginning of the process, I have no idea what the timeline is and wouldn't comment if I did; something like that would only come out through official comms.
DF - The reasons for my opinion have been discussed widely on this thread already. Pension, FA, Bidline, Pay, high CAP's, interpretation of EASA ftl's, etc.. I can't comment on our SH operation as I can't remember the last time I did a 2 crew sector, let alone a 2 hour sector!
Cheers
Buter
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Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. It’s not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but it’s how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they don’t have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.
i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.
When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.
i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.
When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.
A lot of good points well made, though since Buter (and even I thick old me could work out who he was BTW) is one of the new “intake” to the BACC I’d certainly hope criticism at what and who went before isn’t aimed at him personally....no pressure there on the new guys to deliver...no, none at all.....! !!
That’s certainly very unfortunate but I’ll make the observation that from the lofty heights it has always been kind of hard to understand the enthusiasm some junior colleagues have for JSS... I think if and when JSS gets sorted and once the senior pilots have got their heads around the bidding logic the Junior pilots could quite possibly be shafted vs. how they fared under Bidline...but it certainly isn’t a laughing or chuckling matter... ( and no, I didn’t vote for it).
BTW personally with kids no longer at home like quite a few senior guys I’m quite happy to work weekends ..these days it’s not when I work, it’s where I go.
When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.
BTW personally with kids no longer at home like quite a few senior guys I’m quite happy to work weekends ..these days it’s not when I work, it’s where I go.
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Oct 2018 at 21:57.
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BA DEP Stage 3
Does anyone have any hints or tips regarding the BA Stage 3 process? Got the email on Friday with the good news. Seems it’ll be done in the 767-300 sim.
Cheers!
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Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. It’s not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but it’s how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they don’t have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.
i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.
i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.
i don't mean to sound harsh but I can’t let that go.
You ask how BA can pay different salaries for the same job. You say shake up, but not to cut the pay of guys at the top.
You infer your union doesn’t represent some ( you?) but with impossible requirements like that, is there any wonder?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but this forum is to help those looking for jobs. Your views are heartfelt and honest but need to be taken in context to give balance.
For those who haven’t read through all 263 pages here Bex if I remember previous postings correctly joined BA with the bmi takeover so didn’t apply to BA but through no fault of his own ended up here. . He is a junior SH capt. He’s made no secret of not being happy in BA. That in itself is good evidence as to whether BA is a good place to be or not. Bex has also made no secret of looking for other jobs but as far as I can n tell he’s still with BA. That’s good evidence too.
The low pay for junior A320 capts is a quirk but we have high pay for senior P2s. BA has historically worked on a longevity pay system. Whatever the pros and cons it’s what we have. Changing it will be v complex and will probably blow BA BALPA apart.
I don’t see how BA can be expected to “shake up” and level the pay without reducing the higher payscales for both P1 and P2. P1 SH would go senior and P2 LH would go junior. It would only be fair for senior P2s to have a bid for P1 SH but what do they do when all slots are filled? Should more junior P1s be forced into the RHS ? What other option would be fair? Ironically Bex wouldn’t see his bumper pay rise, just a type and seat change. BA would expect that to be nil cost so take the conversion course costs out of the pay budget. Oh and hold recruitment we will have so many internal moves and command courses the training system can’t cope.
And that hopefully brings it back onto recruitment.
One thing often overlooked is that a PP15 P2 when taking a command becomes a PP15 capt. In many airlines you drop to PP1 capt.
Last edited by sudden twang; 15th Oct 2018 at 05:54.
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Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but it’s really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Don’t get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I don’t think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFO’s on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.
For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.
Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂
For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.
Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂
Last edited by bex88; 15th Oct 2018 at 07:51.
It’s these last 10 posts or so that put me off joining BA at my age. I have a young family with a wife who works long hours.
I understand aviation is a 24 hour 365 day operation but working every weekend because I’m a junior on the seniority list coupled with a low command pay throws a lot of doubts in to the mix.
I have never been a massive fan of seniority giving people the right to every weekend, Xmas new year etc off. I believe there should be compromises but hey ho I know that goes with joining BA. If I didn’t have a young family maybe it wouldn’t bother me. It’s why I think if BA are working so hard with fatigue rising why not go somewhere and at least earn some decent money and be able to retire earlier in life.
My airline isn’t perfect but at least our rostering agreement guarantees at least 1 weekend off a month.
I understand aviation is a 24 hour 365 day operation but working every weekend because I’m a junior on the seniority list coupled with a low command pay throws a lot of doubts in to the mix.
I have never been a massive fan of seniority giving people the right to every weekend, Xmas new year etc off. I believe there should be compromises but hey ho I know that goes with joining BA. If I didn’t have a young family maybe it wouldn’t bother me. It’s why I think if BA are working so hard with fatigue rising why not go somewhere and at least earn some decent money and be able to retire earlier in life.
My airline isn’t perfect but at least our rostering agreement guarantees at least 1 weekend off a month.
FWIW Xmas is currently one on a points system so as to ensure a degree of fairness, and TBF some people ( self included actually like some of the Xmas Longhaul trips, so they don't all "go" junior. Weekends however can problematic unless you are very near the top of your list....
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Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but it’s really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Don’t get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I don’t think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFO’s on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.
For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.
Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂
For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.
Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂
I would absolutely agree with the above, I have been at BA 2.5 years LHR SH and I can honestly say the last 18 months has been the most challenging of my 15 year career. I personally don’t dislike BA but my wife sure does! My children are 4 and I never see them, my wife works full time during the week and come the weekend is stuck looking after children on her own. She constantly makes jokes about being a single parent and if this continues there is a very real chance she might be. The seniority system disproportionately protects the pay and lifestyle of those at the top and it’s a very difficult pill to swallow but it will never change. As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you don’t mind not seeing your family for the first 5 then go for it there honestly is no where else you will achieve this. But if you want command or long term SH then almost anywhere else might be better for you.
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I cannot see there being a great deal of pressure for BA to increase super junior command pay. As far as they are concerned, you join BA as an FO and serve your time as an FO until you gain the seniority for a short haul command perhaps seven or eight years later, by which time your command pay would be more competitive. If a new pilot is lucky enough to join at a time when command seniority is unusually low, they will see it as that new pilot being in the right place at the right time, and so obtaining a super junior command with its associated payrise. There possibly is some pressure to increase junior FO pay, which may then increase the low end command salary as FO pay is currently 75% of command pay across all paypoints.
More likely, if it is ever determined that there is a problem with recruitment numbers or junior pilot retention, then I would predict some kind of bonus payment after x years within the company, rather than a skewing of the salary scale.
This period of super junior short haul commands is almost certainly a blip. We had a recruitment ban for many years, and then suddenly we are in a period of rapid recruitment and postings and promotions movement. As that stabilises, short haul command seniorities will rise again.
More likely, if it is ever determined that there is a problem with recruitment numbers or junior pilot retention, then I would predict some kind of bonus payment after x years within the company, rather than a skewing of the salary scale.
This period of super junior short haul commands is almost certainly a blip. We had a recruitment ban for many years, and then suddenly we are in a period of rapid recruitment and postings and promotions movement. As that stabilises, short haul command seniorities will rise again.
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Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.
Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt?
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?
Also there are pay scales listed on pilotjobsnetwork, but when you upgrade from FO to captain do you start with the Year 1 salary or do you count the FO years too? i.e. If you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
Because from what I understand from the ppjn page the FO salary passes the year 1 captain's salary after around 14 years and the time to command on LH is over 15 years.
From the outside the whole system at BA looks daunting, like you get the short end of the stick for the first 10 years or so and only then does it start to pay off.
Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt?
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?
Also there are pay scales listed on pilotjobsnetwork, but when you upgrade from FO to captain do you start with the Year 1 salary or do you count the FO years too? i.e. If you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
Because from what I understand from the ppjn page the FO salary passes the year 1 captain's salary after around 14 years and the time to command on LH is over 15 years.
From the outside the whole system at BA looks daunting, like you get the short end of the stick for the first 10 years or so and only then does it start to pay off.
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?
(health warning..that’s how it works under the current agreement)
you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
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For folk looking in from the outside, CAP doesn’t drop as you become more senior. There’s no senior full timers flying 3 short trips a month for example. Chatting to friends outside of it this misconception does seem to exist - “get in a few years and write your own roster” type of gig.
Previously under the old (bidline) system you could bid for lines that had a higher amount of credit efficient trips. These type trips involved more hours over a shorter time frame. But this is in context. You can only work with what’s provided by BA on the dinner plate. Granted, you have more control the more senior you are, and JSS is being watched with interest to see how this is affected once the line system disappears.
The ability to afford part time on PP24 aside, I’ve rarely seen full time senior LHs who are away a huge amount less from home than the juniors. Many still have the trip/2 day off/trip rash somewhere on a leave free line on my fleet. Granted they might fly to less unpopular places and have a couple of weekends off. But only they can answer whether that’s a tradable commodity with how bushed they are overall. That many are going for part time would say otherwise.
Certainly FA and problems with using bank, have caused dismay from everyone. I mentioned in a previous post, and certainly seems to have been highlighted by a couple of retired posters - that when the agreements were forged, the system worked due to the then landscape of the BA operation. BA, naturally doing what businesses do have prodded and poked around, discovering chinks in the armour, elegantly finding work arounds to exploit naively created thin walls and side effects of the system.
A new rostering interface could be (I say could be, I don’t know) well placed to push further against these weak areas of the bidline rules. Just like any business, they will do what money makers will do. I’ve alluded to some of my personal opinions - I think this new efficiency is highlighting fundamental issues in the industry rather than my fixating and targeting my opinions solely at company level.
I think it quite telling that part time is something highly sought, not just in BA. This fact completely disarms a company convincingly asserting aircrew are money driven entities using lifestyle as a bargaining chip. Quite the opposite, it starkly tells a different story. Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.
I always have to remember there’s plenty of folk who’ve never worked outside of BA and until recent years perhaps limited experience of what life is like when you butt up against the unsavoury ramifications of “efficient” FTL construction. At that point do you target your dismay with the local rules or with the regulations that allow these practices? I’d argue for long term protection of aircrew wellbeing you have to tackle both - two pronged. At the local coal face level and also at the wider mother hen level.
Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 12:31.
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Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.
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Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
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Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
People are different and of course there are folk perfectly happy on full time with various companies who request part time for other reasons other than to do with health or wellbeing.
I honestly think there’s enough part time requests across the UK airline industry in recent times that are down to the job affecting employees adversely, not just by fatigue, such that it’s more than notable.
I mentioned fatigue but that is far from the only factor. There’s chronic stress and it’s associated symptoms, homelife disruption, health issues due to shift work.
Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 21:19.
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We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".
Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
Do you know many long tours were to be had and were the long tours restricted by any inhibitors?
If there aren’t many and there weren’t subject to an inhibitor then I guess they’ve been corralled by the senior guys....one of the potential pitfalls of JSS “as is”....
(For those not into the language “inhibiters” are restrictions placed into JSS that effect certain trips (e.g. Singapore,) to prevent a handful of senior individuals getting all the plum work..e.g. stop somebody bidding for 3 or 4 Singapore’s in a month. )
If there aren’t many and there weren’t subject to an inhibitor then I guess they’ve been corralled by the senior guys....one of the potential pitfalls of JSS “as is”....
(For those not into the language “inhibiters” are restrictions placed into JSS that effect certain trips (e.g. Singapore,) to prevent a handful of senior individuals getting all the plum work..e.g. stop somebody bidding for 3 or 4 Singapore’s in a month. )
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We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".
Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.