BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buter - No, I’ve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so I’ve done the rounds.
Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buter
Why don’t just grow a pair and stand up for yourselves. BAs T&Cs will continue to fall downwards unless and until you threaten and actually do strike, to stop it. You are a bunch of whinging weaklings. There, I said it.
Why don’t just grow a pair and stand up for yourselves. BAs T&Cs will continue to fall downwards unless and until you threaten and actually do strike, to stop it. You are a bunch of whinging weaklings. There, I said it.
Buter - No, I’ve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so I’ve done the rounds.
Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldn’t be entitled to protect some of our T&C’s? Perhaps you’ll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buter
All done and voted for by BA pilots! If loosing bidline was so bad then the union should never have recommended it and the pilots should not have voted yes. BA have taken advantage of a corrupt and week union and they have not implemented anything that has not been arrgeed by BALPA and the work force. And now they have a nicely divided work force I am sure the attacks won’t stop anytime soon, let’s see if BALPA can grow a pair and stop looking after themselves.
All done and voted for by BA pilots! If loosing bidline was so bad then the union should never have recommended it and the pilots should not have voted yes. BA have taken advantage of a corrupt and week union and they have not implemented anything that has not been arrgeed by BALPA and the work force. And now they have a nicely divided work force I am sure the attacks won’t stop anytime soon, let’s see if BALPA can grow a pair and stop looking after themselves.
Last edited by Enzo999; 25th Feb 2018 at 08:07.
Some very negative BA comments here!
Depends what lifestyle you want and perhaps your previous Employer. Friend of mine lifestyle immensely improved. From Ex Military, poor pay, Hotac that would not be acceptable in airline life. Completely random unstable rostering etc.etc.
A couple of years in now after direct into BA LH. £70k ish, mainly 5 day trips with couple of days free down route (plenty of golf if that’s your bag) Mainly high quality hotels in the city.
Small fleet very social, no rubbish destinations. Although junior, complete roster stability after publication, and very easy trip swapping helps family arranging on days off at home.
Obviously plenty of night flying, but helped by one of the best flightdeck environment and crew rest facility in the business.
Some may prefer EZY and Ryan but “horses for courses”
Depends what lifestyle you want and perhaps your previous Employer. Friend of mine lifestyle immensely improved. From Ex Military, poor pay, Hotac that would not be acceptable in airline life. Completely random unstable rostering etc.etc.
A couple of years in now after direct into BA LH. £70k ish, mainly 5 day trips with couple of days free down route (plenty of golf if that’s your bag) Mainly high quality hotels in the city.
Small fleet very social, no rubbish destinations. Although junior, complete roster stability after publication, and very easy trip swapping helps family arranging on days off at home.
Obviously plenty of night flying, but helped by one of the best flightdeck environment and crew rest facility in the business.
Some may prefer EZY and Ryan but “horses for courses”
Last edited by cessnapete; 25th Feb 2018 at 08:12.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that it’s some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ‘I’ve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etc’.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldn’t be entitled to protect some of our T&C’s? Perhaps you’ll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldn’t be entitled to protect some of our T&C’s? Perhaps you’ll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
I’m as pee’d off as the next guy with the company and am more than happy to strike to protect our Ts and Cs. That’s not what the argument is here. The point we are trying to make is that life isn’t as bad as a lot of the posts on this forum make it sound. Far from it.
I sense there’s a bit of “ well if you had ever worked anywhere else you wouldn’t think like that” creeping in, so just to put the record straight many of those perhaps expressing less than glowing views of BA did indeed have a life before BA...even many those regarded as institutionalised who joined 30 years back have in fact been either in the mil and/or with another airline and are very well aware of things like roster instability, poor accommodation .. and phone calls at 3 in the AM....so yes, we’ve all know “the four Yorkshiremen 
BA used to be the top U.K. gig by a country mile...yes, .it is an eye opener when you join and some of the “perks” can make your eyes water if you previously done things like spending time off downroute living on a car ferry...
I think Long Haul is probably still a pretty top job, short haul...I don’t know but I know those who do....but I do know the slide in T&Cs has been enormous over the last few years as the operation is steered from Madrid and I suspect that slide will continue, so those thinking in indulging need to indulge in a lot of thinking ahead.
Certainly those now looking at BA need to perform due diligence like never before ..and yes, it is indeed horses for courses...long haul DEP offered...grab it...if the offer is Shorthaul DEP and you are already well established at your current outfit...that’s a tough one...not sure I’d jump without a lot of research.
Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported “benefits” website....
BA used to be the top U.K. gig by a country mile...yes, .it is an eye opener when you join and some of the “perks” can make your eyes water if you previously done things like spending time off downroute living on a car ferry...
I think Long Haul is probably still a pretty top job, short haul...I don’t know but I know those who do....but I do know the slide in T&Cs has been enormous over the last few years as the operation is steered from Madrid and I suspect that slide will continue, so those thinking in indulging need to indulge in a lot of thinking ahead.
Certainly those now looking at BA need to perform due diligence like never before ..and yes, it is indeed horses for courses...long haul DEP offered...grab it...if the offer is Shorthaul DEP and you are already well established at your current outfit...that’s a tough one...not sure I’d jump without a lot of research.
Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported “benefits” website....
Last edited by wiggy; 25th Feb 2018 at 09:14.
I am just totally fascinated by the fact that some BA pilots fly "for the prestige".
What "prestige"?
Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.
He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".
What "prestige"?
Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.
He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".
For me, like applying to the RAF, joining BA was a serendipitous accident; I could have been a turbine driver in a power station y'know
The performance (
) of the Gentlemen's International Transport has been mentioned and, if you recollect the approx 'benefit' of Mil Ops, a comment may be appropriate at:Perf Group A history
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading People are leaving can only be a good thing for those of us here to stay. BA is my 3rd airline having done charter & ME before, there are many things BA get wrong but also many positives too. BA certainly isn’t the ‘be all & end all’ but it works for me. We are an easy target for the haters.... it is what it is. I certainly don’t go for prestige.... rather the job security & 100k gross for doing 3-4 trips a month with min hassle. Those who search my prev post will see I turned down a SH command 3 years ago when we had the one opportunity to do so, that was after 6 years in the company.... I believe in 2016 if you had the hours you could of had a LHR or LGW 320 command regardless of time in the company... now we’re short AGAIN... I can see SH commands crashing down again by the end of the year. If anyone in or out of BA says it X or Y to commands etc they’re lying as who knows? It changes daily & even BA don’t know... just got to bid for what you want!
If it works for you it’s a great place to be... but it’s an airline & like my 2 previous it’s not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...
People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then we’d be in a far stronger position!
If it works for you it’s a great place to be... but it’s an airline & like my 2 previous it’s not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...
People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then we’d be in a far stronger position!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ve spent some time thinking about why we have had such a massive slide in BA over the past few years. BA will obviously take what they can when they can - they want to be as competitive as possible, so who can blame them? This has always been the case though, so the answer must come down to why can they take so much now?
What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?
What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!
Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?
Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?
The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.
I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!
So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.
What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?
What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!
Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?
Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?
The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.
I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!
So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GS ALPHA probably one of the best posts I have ever read on PPrune !
It’s sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say it’s getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell
It’s sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say it’s getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, I’d jump at the chance. Yes it’s not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.
T&C’s are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.
The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.
The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they won’t :-/
Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...
HOWEVER..
The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.
London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.
BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.
I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. it’s hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.
I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if let’s say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted.
But overall it’s not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!
Good luck to you all.
T&C’s are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.
The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.
The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they won’t :-/
Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...
HOWEVER..
The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.
London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.
BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.
I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. it’s hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.
I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if let’s say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted.
But overall it’s not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!
Good luck to you all.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only did they let it slide Rex, they brought in the incredibly dumb alleviation that is Final Assign to replace Forced Draft. Everyone thinks it is great that Forced Draft is gone because BALPA have fed them their spin, but EASA was already going to do away with Forced Draft. You could only be met off an aircraft for a duty the following day. Most long haul duties do not allow you to work the next day under EASA, so that practice would have disappeared overnight all by itself. It would still have been possible to an extent on short haul, but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all. Instead, we just had the alleviations agreed between BALPA and BA, using a system that the Chairman had put to the pilots several times and on every occasion, was told not to even consider it. Final Assign was the foot in the door to bring in JSS.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: London
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don’t even know where to begin with that post. Clearly no understanding of what Bidline originally was - it was an extraction process with the complicit understanding that pilots would cover the work with draft if necessary.
Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.
So much uninformed rubbish on here.
Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.
So much uninformed rubbish on here.
That's a tad strong..
As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.
Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.
BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?
As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.
Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.
BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?
Last edited by wiggy; 26th Feb 2018 at 06:54.
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!
Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.
Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.
Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported “benefits” website....
1.4% of basic for a profit of £1.77B. Motivated? Not really.
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
