Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?
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I don't think they will poach many/if any from Easy. As Alexander has stated the terms and conditions at Easy are very very reasonable and it's like comparing apples with Lobsters in comparison to those that are at FR. They might get a few who fancy a Spanish or Canaries base but that's it as far as I can see it. The carrot just isn't big enough.
However I think they will take a lot of guys from Wizz. And I think they will have enough between them and a few guys coming back from the sandpit to get by.
The terms and conditions at Wizz are.....well let's face it absolutely appalling and in a similar way to Ryanair that is where the influx will come from.
However just like Ryanair they have very competent crews. So I think Norwegian will be only too happy to take them into the world of side sticks and all sorts of different control laws
However I think they will take a lot of guys from Wizz. And I think they will have enough between them and a few guys coming back from the sandpit to get by.
The terms and conditions at Wizz are.....well let's face it absolutely appalling and in a similar way to Ryanair that is where the influx will come from.
However just like Ryanair they have very competent crews. So I think Norwegian will be only too happy to take them into the world of side sticks and all sorts of different control laws
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Pitot, you show your misconceptions by assuming all RYR pilots are contractors and tax fiddlers. Relatively few captains are contractors, and few of the contractor pilots (of any rank) try to fiddle anything - it seems many have been misinformed by professional accountants and authorities about where they should pay taxes and social contributions, so they may have paid them in the wrong country. But paid they have. I think an apology is owed by you to those individuals.
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Well! Aluminum shuffler, I don't think it would be so difficult to put all employees onto a legal employment contract, pay all the appropriate taxes and social insurance costs that are required legally in Europe. Then we could save all the confusion.
Then have a secret ballot of all employees as to whether they would like union representation. That way Ryanair would conform not only with the laws of all countries in Europe but also the spirit of the law.
Then have a secret ballot of all employees as to whether they would like union representation. That way Ryanair would conform not only with the laws of all countries in Europe but also the spirit of the law.
Last edited by polax52; 27th Mar 2014 at 17:53.
Perhaps the headline of "300 pilots have left Ryanair this year" should be more realistically be "3,000 pilots did not leave Ryanair this year".
Being realistic, I very much doubt that Ryanair will have any trouble filling the gaps.
My last company lost getting on for 10% of their pilots on some years during the 19 years that I was there despite pretty good conditions (which I am pleased to report that I am enjoying in retirement).
We never had any trouble filling the spaces.
Being realistic, I very much doubt that Ryanair will have any trouble filling the gaps.
My last company lost getting on for 10% of their pilots on some years during the 19 years that I was there despite pretty good conditions (which I am pleased to report that I am enjoying in retirement).
We never had any trouble filling the spaces.
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JW411....... I think that depends, Airlines run tight margins as you know, if they lost 10% spread evenly over 1 year then maybe they would cover all flights. 10% in 1 month would be a major problem as aircraft would have to sit on the ground. 10% every year, well it depends who was leaving but if training department Pilots were leaving that fast, then that also would be a significant problem.
The other problem is resignation is contagious....
The other problem is resignation is contagious....
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I don't think it would be so difficult to put all employees onto a legal employment contract, pay all he appropriate taxes and social insurance costs that are required legally in Europe. Then we could save all the confusion.
I think that would be exceedingly difficult if it remains a voluntary option for RYR. Surely you can't imagine they would vote to increase their cost base by a massive amount. It'll never happen until the so-called authorities insist upon it.
I think that would be exceedingly difficult if it remains a voluntary option for RYR. Surely you can't imagine they would vote to increase their cost base by a massive amount. It'll never happen until the so-called authorities insist upon it.
I know exactly what you are saying and I do not disagree. I was heavily into the union side of my last company and I can tell you that pilots will always move on (unless you are happy to sit in the right seat of a BA airplane for 20 years or so to hopefully pick up a juicy carrot at the end). I successfully negotiated a good final salary pension scheme, loss of license insurance scheme and God knows what else but still we lost pilots.
The fact of the matter is that a measureable proportion of your pilot workforce will always have itchy feet. After all, everyone knows that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the the other side.
Most of us have great difficulty in realising that we have actually "ARRIVED".
I ended up after a long career in aviation in a job that I realised was probably the best kept secret in aviation. I was only flying 350-400 hours per annum but, most of it was at night. My mates who were in the bucket and spade brigade (such as Britannia) were flying 800 hours per annum and half of that was at night and their pension scheme was worse than mine.
I never ceased to be amazed at the progression of new pilots. At interview, they would cheerfully kill to get the job. During training (and I usually did the simulator and the aircraft bit) they were as keen as mustard and usually did pretty well. Most of my students turned out well but there was always a percentage that I just KNEW from Day One were going to let me down.
The complainants would usually start after the second recurrent session in the simulator (a year later) and their vision of their perceived future in aviation and their aspirations would have changed somewhat.
And these were the days when the company paid for their type rating. So, as long as pilots are prepared to pay for their type ratings, why should Ryanair lose any sleep?
Incidentally, years ago I was working for a Part 121 operator in the USA. Our ultimate boss was a redneck who had never hired anyone unless they already had a type rating. He had never paid for a type rating course. We persuaded him to run a couple of courses. It was my pleasure to check out one of our British F/Os as a captain in the presence of the FAA examiner (the aircraft was a DC-10).
Two weeks later, the little bugger did a runner and left me and a lot of my friends with a huge amount of egg on our faces having got his qualification.
Ryanair will have no trouble filling their seats for the foreseeable future.
The fact of the matter is that a measureable proportion of your pilot workforce will always have itchy feet. After all, everyone knows that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the the other side.
Most of us have great difficulty in realising that we have actually "ARRIVED".
I ended up after a long career in aviation in a job that I realised was probably the best kept secret in aviation. I was only flying 350-400 hours per annum but, most of it was at night. My mates who were in the bucket and spade brigade (such as Britannia) were flying 800 hours per annum and half of that was at night and their pension scheme was worse than mine.
I never ceased to be amazed at the progression of new pilots. At interview, they would cheerfully kill to get the job. During training (and I usually did the simulator and the aircraft bit) they were as keen as mustard and usually did pretty well. Most of my students turned out well but there was always a percentage that I just KNEW from Day One were going to let me down.
The complainants would usually start after the second recurrent session in the simulator (a year later) and their vision of their perceived future in aviation and their aspirations would have changed somewhat.
And these were the days when the company paid for their type rating. So, as long as pilots are prepared to pay for their type ratings, why should Ryanair lose any sleep?
Incidentally, years ago I was working for a Part 121 operator in the USA. Our ultimate boss was a redneck who had never hired anyone unless they already had a type rating. He had never paid for a type rating course. We persuaded him to run a couple of courses. It was my pleasure to check out one of our British F/Os as a captain in the presence of the FAA examiner (the aircraft was a DC-10).
Two weeks later, the little bugger did a runner and left me and a lot of my friends with a huge amount of egg on our faces having got his qualification.
Ryanair will have no trouble filling their seats for the foreseeable future.
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Aluminium Shuffler. You do not have to be an apologist for a company that relies so heavily on ducking its responsibility to the wider society of where it operates to enhance its bottom line. Ignorance of tax laws is no excuse regardless of where you might get advice from. Take the time to read and understand what you are signing for at the bottom of your income tax form. Too many Ryanair pilots have revelled in the fact that they have avoided paying tax to think it is not a commonly held view. It is only in the last few years when European wide tax authorities have been taken a closer look that the fear of being caught has started to change mindsets.
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JW411- I respect your experience and view, but your conclusion is dependent on the one situation that none of us want to consider. The standard of cadets at Ryanair as I have discussed on other threads does not approach the standards you were trained to at hamble or Oxford or the Air Force 30+ years ago. Now there is almost no failure, pay and pass. Any serious incident will drive regulators toward the FAA conclusions. Changing things for LCC's. I just wish the change would happen without the incident.
It is true that Ryanair can fill the seats with 250 hour F/O's and 3000 hour captains but I'm sorry, I was a wet behind the ears F/O with 3000 hours. I accept that with the military that is different.
It is true that Ryanair can fill the seats with 250 hour F/O's and 3000 hour captains but I'm sorry, I was a wet behind the ears F/O with 3000 hours. I accept that with the military that is different.
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Polax, re. post 131 I couldn't agree more. Most of the contractors I ever asked wanted to be employees, but didn't get the choice. They weren't happy about their tax arrangements either, but if they didn't toe the line, they'd be removed from the roster. That's the real benefit of contractors for an "employer" - there are no dismissals or grievance procedures. It's a case of do as you're told or lose your income.
Pitotheat, I am not defending the company - many of their actions are indefensible. They are reaping what they have sown, and I hope many more find good alternatives. I am merely responding to the arrogant, anti-RYR pilot rants of some misguided EZY fools.
Pitotheat, I am not defending the company - many of their actions are indefensible. They are reaping what they have sown, and I hope many more find good alternatives. I am merely responding to the arrogant, anti-RYR pilot rants of some misguided EZY fools.
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I was at Ryanair for four years. I complied fully with the law and payed my taxes.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush pitotheat. Some of us go to work, pay our taxes just like everyone else regardless of weather we are self employed contractors or not.
Thankfully I'm no longer a self employed contractor. But it matters not I've always payed my due taxes. End of story.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush pitotheat. Some of us go to work, pay our taxes just like everyone else regardless of weather we are self employed contractors or not.
Thankfully I'm no longer a self employed contractor. But it matters not I've always payed my due taxes. End of story.
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Well done you but the fact remains that a lot of Ryan pilots do not pay any tax. I know that because I know a few of them and they have told me. They live in fear of the tax authorities catching up with them, although in the mean time is Kchink!
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Polax, rant all you wish at RYR; I have no issue with that. I do take issue with you ranting about their pilots, who are no different to EZY's or any other company's. Most of them are unhappy about a multitude of issues, but for one reason or another are not in a position to change things. The is no power in the workforce because of how the company plays multinational law when it suits them and Irish law when it doesn't, and because this game makes compulsory union recognition impossible. Those pilots that can take jobs elsewhere are doing so, just as I voted with my feet when I decided that EZY was a bad place to be. Don't blame the RYR pilots for what is outside of their control - you don't see them bad mouthing EZY pilots, do you?
Calypso, there are a handful that may be evading tax, not a large number. There are always a few bad apples, and don't pretend that other airlines with contractors don't have the same issue. I knew a few in my time at EZY, just as I met a couple at RYR.
Calypso, there are a handful that may be evading tax, not a large number. There are always a few bad apples, and don't pretend that other airlines with contractors don't have the same issue. I knew a few in my time at EZY, just as I met a couple at RYR.
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777Scotty, I sometimes wish this forum had a "like" button.
The mass resignations are a double edged sword for Ts and Cs. While they may concentrate RYR mgmt's mind, and that doesn't seem to be the case yet, the availability of so many fairly well trained and experienced senior FOs and Captains of vary levels of experience doesn't do much to increase competition amongst other companies recruitment teams. I'm not sure that this really will be the start of a T&C upswing that so many of us wish for. I hope I'm very wrong.
The mass resignations are a double edged sword for Ts and Cs. While they may concentrate RYR mgmt's mind, and that doesn't seem to be the case yet, the availability of so many fairly well trained and experienced senior FOs and Captains of vary levels of experience doesn't do much to increase competition amongst other companies recruitment teams. I'm not sure that this really will be the start of a T&C upswing that so many of us wish for. I hope I'm very wrong.
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Thanks a lot for a lively discussion guys.
It seems that no one has been able to confirm this rumor yet.
I hope someone can shed a light on this so I will post this question again with an updated number that I recently heard.
Is it true that around 500 pilots have left RYR recently?
It seems that no one has been able to confirm this rumor yet.
I hope someone can shed a light on this so I will post this question again with an updated number that I recently heard.
Is it true that around 500 pilots have left RYR recently?
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I think RYR find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They have manoeuvrered themselves into a position where there is no easy way out.
On one side, Norwegian and others can continue to take RYR pilots. I was quite surprised to see how quickly many of my collegues jumped ship. Other airlines only have to offer marginally better contracts and they will have a steady supply of well trained and efficient operators.
On the other side there are the movements within the pilot group. Even if Ryanair wants to get everybody on solid set of T&C's they run the risk of industrial action, there are many frustrated pilots in Ryanair ready for 'revenge'. This is something Ryanair cannot afford especially this summer where it seems we will be under-staffed. It's not only pilots leaving, lots of cabincrew are fed up as well.
So Ryanair are in a position where they are damned either way. And yes, this situation is entirely of their own making. Traditionally they have choosen to buckle up and weather the storm, and I think that that is what they will do this time again. We have allready seen the soft approach with the basing issues. Maybe we will see some more of this but I don't see how this will be enough to keep people from leaving.
I don't have any numbers on how many pilots are leaving or have left. From what I see its mostly the experienced F/O's (>2500h) and the more experienced captains that are leaving. Rumour is that the IAA is getting concerned with the overall experience levels on the flightdeck and may impose rostering restrictions, which will further complicate this summer's schedules.
On one side, Norwegian and others can continue to take RYR pilots. I was quite surprised to see how quickly many of my collegues jumped ship. Other airlines only have to offer marginally better contracts and they will have a steady supply of well trained and efficient operators.
On the other side there are the movements within the pilot group. Even if Ryanair wants to get everybody on solid set of T&C's they run the risk of industrial action, there are many frustrated pilots in Ryanair ready for 'revenge'. This is something Ryanair cannot afford especially this summer where it seems we will be under-staffed. It's not only pilots leaving, lots of cabincrew are fed up as well.
So Ryanair are in a position where they are damned either way. And yes, this situation is entirely of their own making. Traditionally they have choosen to buckle up and weather the storm, and I think that that is what they will do this time again. We have allready seen the soft approach with the basing issues. Maybe we will see some more of this but I don't see how this will be enough to keep people from leaving.
I don't have any numbers on how many pilots are leaving or have left. From what I see its mostly the experienced F/O's (>2500h) and the more experienced captains that are leaving. Rumour is that the IAA is getting concerned with the overall experience levels on the flightdeck and may impose rostering restrictions, which will further complicate this summer's schedules.
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It is a certainty that for around the last 8-12mths 80-95% of new hires in NAS have been ex FR.
That must equate to 300+ to NAS alone.
I have heard that Emirates is similarly well disposed towards ex FR candidates, so I can well imagine that at least 500 have fled the Harp in the last 12mths.
Given that the 5/4 roster was the only selling point, and given the devaluation of that now that everyone is in reality a "floater" so therefore likely to easily lose 1-2 days commuting, why would you stay ? what is there to like anymore ?
As we used to trumpet back in the REPA days, this is all about R E S P E C T , this is unlikely to be forthcoming anytime soon, so you have to look elsewhere if you want it. Twas always thus, but roster stability & the "fools gold" of signing up as a "contractor" compensated, none of these carrots now exist in reality, so, the exodus will continue.
Heard strong rumours of Fly Dubai airframes being wet leased for Summer.
Historically any anticipated shortage has always been avoided at the last moment by someone else going bust. . . perhaps opening bases in BRU/FCO could have been partially motivated by the hope that one of the incumbent carriers might be helped "over the edge" thereby freeing up a few local drivers.
That must equate to 300+ to NAS alone.
I have heard that Emirates is similarly well disposed towards ex FR candidates, so I can well imagine that at least 500 have fled the Harp in the last 12mths.
Given that the 5/4 roster was the only selling point, and given the devaluation of that now that everyone is in reality a "floater" so therefore likely to easily lose 1-2 days commuting, why would you stay ? what is there to like anymore ?
As we used to trumpet back in the REPA days, this is all about R E S P E C T , this is unlikely to be forthcoming anytime soon, so you have to look elsewhere if you want it. Twas always thus, but roster stability & the "fools gold" of signing up as a "contractor" compensated, none of these carrots now exist in reality, so, the exodus will continue.
Heard strong rumours of Fly Dubai airframes being wet leased for Summer.
Historically any anticipated shortage has always been avoided at the last moment by someone else going bust. . . perhaps opening bases in BRU/FCO could have been partially motivated by the hope that one of the incumbent carriers might be helped "over the edge" thereby freeing up a few local drivers.