Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?
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Gordon Brown is responsible for a lot of of things, one of which is the loss of personal allowance for earning over 100k. Meaning earnings between 100 and 115 are taxed at 60%
Keeping taxable earnings below 100k through additional pension contribution is perfectly legal.
Keeping taxable earnings below 100k through additional pension contribution is perfectly legal.
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I've heard it all. A lesson on the morality of paying in full ones tax liability from a former Ryanair pilot. Oh the irony. As has been said using the legal and legitimate avenue of pension contribution to remain below Ģ100k is an entirely sensible rather than stupid thing to do.
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Pitotheat:
I have heard the arguments about how Air France or BA or whatever other Airline have worse safety records than the European LCC's, suggesting that low experience is a positive safety factor. The reality is it is not, this is an experiment with low experience and substandard testing that is yet to be concluded. The longer the good fortune continues the worse the situation becomes.
I have until recently been working with a Non European Airline who employ expat Captains and fly them with low hour cadets who have trained either in approved U.S. or European schools, I can honestly say that the standards of the majority was shockingly low.
What has happened in my view follows the law of unintended consequences:
In the late 1990's, a number of British Airlines were unhappy with the Standards of the self improver Pilots who were on the market. Some management Pilots saw this as an opportunity and set up CTC and ran approved courses which were designed to meet the requirements of Airlines such as Britannia who's standards were high. At that time the checking standards were also very high and you really achieved something when you passed the UK instrument rating and GFT's, most people were unable to do it.
As time has gone on the training organizations have gained more autonomy and have been able to set their own standards with regard to the checks, of course good business dictates that you want to achieve close to a 100% pass rate for your customers. This means that the license is worth no more than the FAA license which schools do absolutely guarantee you will pass.
I understand that at the moment the LCC's are able to select their graduates but if there is any sort of shortage that will not be the case.
This is an experiment, which started with efforts to raise standards and now is having the opposite effect.
I have heard the arguments about how Air France or BA or whatever other Airline have worse safety records than the European LCC's, suggesting that low experience is a positive safety factor. The reality is it is not, this is an experiment with low experience and substandard testing that is yet to be concluded. The longer the good fortune continues the worse the situation becomes.
I have until recently been working with a Non European Airline who employ expat Captains and fly them with low hour cadets who have trained either in approved U.S. or European schools, I can honestly say that the standards of the majority was shockingly low.
What has happened in my view follows the law of unintended consequences:
In the late 1990's, a number of British Airlines were unhappy with the Standards of the self improver Pilots who were on the market. Some management Pilots saw this as an opportunity and set up CTC and ran approved courses which were designed to meet the requirements of Airlines such as Britannia who's standards were high. At that time the checking standards were also very high and you really achieved something when you passed the UK instrument rating and GFT's, most people were unable to do it.
As time has gone on the training organizations have gained more autonomy and have been able to set their own standards with regard to the checks, of course good business dictates that you want to achieve close to a 100% pass rate for your customers. This means that the license is worth no more than the FAA license which schools do absolutely guarantee you will pass.
I understand that at the moment the LCC's are able to select their graduates but if there is any sort of shortage that will not be the case.
This is an experiment, which started with efforts to raise standards and now is having the opposite effect.
Last edited by polax52; 25th Mar 2014 at 01:38.
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I have to put my cards on the table and admit having never worked for either Loco, however I have shared a cockpit with more than one person who has worked for both companies and on reflection the recent comments laid out in this thread ring true the opinions that were shared with me were either ezy were slightly better because reason xyz or ryanair were slightly better because reason abc.
I know people who currently work at both airlines some very close friends, some friends and some passing aquaintances (as you tend to end up attracting in this job) and there are some blissfully happy people at both operators but there are many many more who are not happy for a whole raft of reasons. Maybe I cant really comment having no direct experience however the second hand story is of one where neither company is much better than the other
The one amazing fact on this particular forum is the one whereby ryanair pilots seem to be realistic about their current situation whereas some of easyjets at times seem to have an opinion of their situation and position in the percieved "pecking order" of decent operators, at times that is to be honest laughable. Each to their own.
I personally dont class ADM in this category I have to say, fair play this is a guy who has obviously done very well and is very proud of himself, his standing and his company this makes perfect sense to me. I am told there are some excellent TREs at ezy (and for balance Im told the same at RYR) And someone who has reached this level within a company has every right to feel smug, and why wouldnt you really enjoy working for a company in this situation?
However that said the bulk of the orange lot and just dont seem to understand the role their particular company are playing in the damage that is affecting the whole industry ruin the UK/Europe due to the LOCO model. Their preferred training provider for me is a large part of this statement. At the risk of been shot down in flames by the orange army, and this is just a guess, this FTO is possibly why such an attitude emanates from the orange crowd on this board and not the Ryanair crowd. As my own experience of the "product" from this FTO can show the same levels of misguided arrogance. Obviously there are of course the decent down to earth characters I have also met that trained there. This attitude that seems to be created somewhere is clear to see on the last couple of pages on this thread. I guess this is one unpopular function of P2F (my personal opinion as more of an old school thinker this is what an overpriced training course actually equates to with links directly to an airline)
In a nutshell as I see it as an innocent bystander, not a lot of difference in the two companies. Ryanairs pilots dont seem to be pulled into the company propoganda like Easyjets. Ryanair are having their pilots pulled form the Loco model to better places. Everyone waiting with bated breath and fingers crossed to see if the same happens to Ezy once the A320s arrive. Oh and I for one am actually pleased about the tacky plastic uniforms - It is the most amazing thing of all that everyone agrees on something
I know people who currently work at both airlines some very close friends, some friends and some passing aquaintances (as you tend to end up attracting in this job) and there are some blissfully happy people at both operators but there are many many more who are not happy for a whole raft of reasons. Maybe I cant really comment having no direct experience however the second hand story is of one where neither company is much better than the other
The one amazing fact on this particular forum is the one whereby ryanair pilots seem to be realistic about their current situation whereas some of easyjets at times seem to have an opinion of their situation and position in the percieved "pecking order" of decent operators, at times that is to be honest laughable. Each to their own.
I personally dont class ADM in this category I have to say, fair play this is a guy who has obviously done very well and is very proud of himself, his standing and his company this makes perfect sense to me. I am told there are some excellent TREs at ezy (and for balance Im told the same at RYR) And someone who has reached this level within a company has every right to feel smug, and why wouldnt you really enjoy working for a company in this situation?
However that said the bulk of the orange lot and just dont seem to understand the role their particular company are playing in the damage that is affecting the whole industry ruin the UK/Europe due to the LOCO model. Their preferred training provider for me is a large part of this statement. At the risk of been shot down in flames by the orange army, and this is just a guess, this FTO is possibly why such an attitude emanates from the orange crowd on this board and not the Ryanair crowd. As my own experience of the "product" from this FTO can show the same levels of misguided arrogance. Obviously there are of course the decent down to earth characters I have also met that trained there. This attitude that seems to be created somewhere is clear to see on the last couple of pages on this thread. I guess this is one unpopular function of P2F (my personal opinion as more of an old school thinker this is what an overpriced training course actually equates to with links directly to an airline)
In a nutshell as I see it as an innocent bystander, not a lot of difference in the two companies. Ryanairs pilots dont seem to be pulled into the company propoganda like Easyjets. Ryanair are having their pilots pulled form the Loco model to better places. Everyone waiting with bated breath and fingers crossed to see if the same happens to Ezy once the A320s arrive. Oh and I for one am actually pleased about the tacky plastic uniforms - It is the most amazing thing of all that everyone agrees on something
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Polax
I don't understand the points you are trying to make in your first 2 paragraphs. Of course the longer any company operate the closer they are going to get to an event whether they are LCC or legacy. Low hour cadets have been joining airlines well before LCC were ever thought of. I had the opportunity to attend Hamble in the late 1970s with 0 hours.
As for comparing standards of any European airline with some of the operators around the world it is hardly a fair comparison. If you have just returned from such an environment you should know this more than anyone.
This thread has drifted into the normal tired argument of how good things were before LCC arrived. The reality is LCC have changed the airline industry for ever. More choice and competition have given the travelling public better options and lower cost. Providing an increase in employment within the whole of the tourist industry at the cost of Pilots no longer enjoying a very lavish lifestyle. However, the present T&Cs are pretty good. Talk to your friends who aren't cosseted in a legacy airline about how their jobs have changed. Nothing stays the same.
I don't understand the points you are trying to make in your first 2 paragraphs. Of course the longer any company operate the closer they are going to get to an event whether they are LCC or legacy. Low hour cadets have been joining airlines well before LCC were ever thought of. I had the opportunity to attend Hamble in the late 1970s with 0 hours.
As for comparing standards of any European airline with some of the operators around the world it is hardly a fair comparison. If you have just returned from such an environment you should know this more than anyone.
This thread has drifted into the normal tired argument of how good things were before LCC arrived. The reality is LCC have changed the airline industry for ever. More choice and competition have given the travelling public better options and lower cost. Providing an increase in employment within the whole of the tourist industry at the cost of Pilots no longer enjoying a very lavish lifestyle. However, the present T&Cs are pretty good. Talk to your friends who aren't cosseted in a legacy airline about how their jobs have changed. Nothing stays the same.
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Can you list the woes you face?
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Dear lord give it rest would you. Please.
This is an anonymous forum. Please don't publish ADM's real name. Or at least what he thinks it is and likes to be referred to as in the Sim.
Did you know he's a TRE?
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clunk1001 - absolutely delighted for you. So let me understand this correctly - you can't stand people who boast about what they earn, but you are desperate to tell us all that you earn more than me and pay less tax. Given that is the sort of thing you can't stand, are you a self-harmer?
dick byrne - the only relevance to me being a TRE is that it affects the financial calculations I quoted. We live in our little PPRuNe world where countless people post drivel and misinformation about different companies. Statements are made here, and indeed many other places, that are simply rubbish about easyJet terms and conditions. Boys in their bedrooms type away a lot of codswallop and to an extent we are all influenced by it. I am careful to quote accurate figures and the best way of doing that is to quote the ones that pertain to me and the UK contract under which I operate. You will note I do not quote the German, French or Italian ones (they are all better than the UK ones) because I am not involved enough with their contract arrangements to avoid inaccuracies about detail. The key point I have made is that the Ts & Cs described are available to all and not just a few - something you do not seem to have grasped or understood in any way. I have also said that some will leave us (only one I know of actually has) to join Norwegian. Frankly I hope loads do, as it puts upward pressure on our own terms and conditions. Inevitably, some of our excellent Scandinavian pilots will do so when the Airbus comes in, as they want to be based nearer home - I do not blame them and will wish them every success. I do, however, stand by the view that Ryanair's treatment of its pilots is a different league to everyone else's. Like all internet forums, it is never really easy to judge the individual you are speaking to, and would ask you not to judge me without meeting me in the flesh. (It is of course entirely possible that I am a complete liar, do not work for easyJet, do not know what a TRE is and live in a fantasy world - you will just have to believe what you want.) I do not pretend to have it all worked out, but I do know that the key difference between our companies is the presence of unions to protect the pilot workforce. I am very encouraged by the brave attempts of Ryanair pilots to sort out the contracting mess and wish them every success. The reality is that Ryanair need to have an exodus of pilots in order to change the way things are and in that sense the arrival of Norwegian is great news for both those that stay and those that go. We are all in the same game of ensuring the best possible terms and conditions in a hard-nosed world. Good luck to those brave enough to fight the battle at Ryanair.
Aluminimum Shuffler - if you have worked for both companies then you do indeed have a good grasp of the situation. I would have to temper that with the fact that if you have not worked at easyJet in the last 3 years, the world you left is very different today. The other area you seem to have no idea about is the UK tax situation. If you think high rate tax begins at Ģ150k you are completely wrong. All UK tax payers get a 'Personal Allowance' which makes the first Ģ9440 earned tax free. The Personal Allowance reduces where your income is above Ģ100,000 - by Ģ1 for every Ģ2 of income above the Ģ100,000 limit. What that means is that between Ģ100k and Ģ118k you pay 62% to the government - i.e. you only see 38% of what you earn. So it is not by direct income tax (the 45% you are referring to above Ģ150k) but the result is far worse. It is frankly outrageous and affects every captain in our company - most of whose earnings are in that bracket. Therefore, there is a massive imperative to reduce your earnings below the Ģ100k limit. I hope that makes sense.
Regarding safety, easyJet has many faults but they are onto safety in a big way. I have worked for five airlines and easyJet is up there with the best in terms of safety (my previous one was excellent too). There is much talk about the famous cadets - BA, Lufthansa, Air France and KLM all take cadets and seem to have avoided disaster with them. I have always favoured a broader recruitment policy at easyJet, and believe in not just cadets but taking more experienced pilots too. The issue I would have is the percentage split between cadets and experienced pilots at the recruitment stage, but I do not see us as being drastically different in that department from the legacy carriers. Perhaps others may correct me. Anyway, apologies if I have unwittingly hijacked this thread to correct some rubbish written - I will stand back and let others with an appetite for believing everything written on PPRuNe as fact feast themselves on a diet of misinformation. The truth can be just so boring.
dick byrne - the only relevance to me being a TRE is that it affects the financial calculations I quoted. We live in our little PPRuNe world where countless people post drivel and misinformation about different companies. Statements are made here, and indeed many other places, that are simply rubbish about easyJet terms and conditions. Boys in their bedrooms type away a lot of codswallop and to an extent we are all influenced by it. I am careful to quote accurate figures and the best way of doing that is to quote the ones that pertain to me and the UK contract under which I operate. You will note I do not quote the German, French or Italian ones (they are all better than the UK ones) because I am not involved enough with their contract arrangements to avoid inaccuracies about detail. The key point I have made is that the Ts & Cs described are available to all and not just a few - something you do not seem to have grasped or understood in any way. I have also said that some will leave us (only one I know of actually has) to join Norwegian. Frankly I hope loads do, as it puts upward pressure on our own terms and conditions. Inevitably, some of our excellent Scandinavian pilots will do so when the Airbus comes in, as they want to be based nearer home - I do not blame them and will wish them every success. I do, however, stand by the view that Ryanair's treatment of its pilots is a different league to everyone else's. Like all internet forums, it is never really easy to judge the individual you are speaking to, and would ask you not to judge me without meeting me in the flesh. (It is of course entirely possible that I am a complete liar, do not work for easyJet, do not know what a TRE is and live in a fantasy world - you will just have to believe what you want.) I do not pretend to have it all worked out, but I do know that the key difference between our companies is the presence of unions to protect the pilot workforce. I am very encouraged by the brave attempts of Ryanair pilots to sort out the contracting mess and wish them every success. The reality is that Ryanair need to have an exodus of pilots in order to change the way things are and in that sense the arrival of Norwegian is great news for both those that stay and those that go. We are all in the same game of ensuring the best possible terms and conditions in a hard-nosed world. Good luck to those brave enough to fight the battle at Ryanair.
Aluminimum Shuffler - if you have worked for both companies then you do indeed have a good grasp of the situation. I would have to temper that with the fact that if you have not worked at easyJet in the last 3 years, the world you left is very different today. The other area you seem to have no idea about is the UK tax situation. If you think high rate tax begins at Ģ150k you are completely wrong. All UK tax payers get a 'Personal Allowance' which makes the first Ģ9440 earned tax free. The Personal Allowance reduces where your income is above Ģ100,000 - by Ģ1 for every Ģ2 of income above the Ģ100,000 limit. What that means is that between Ģ100k and Ģ118k you pay 62% to the government - i.e. you only see 38% of what you earn. So it is not by direct income tax (the 45% you are referring to above Ģ150k) but the result is far worse. It is frankly outrageous and affects every captain in our company - most of whose earnings are in that bracket. Therefore, there is a massive imperative to reduce your earnings below the Ģ100k limit. I hope that makes sense.
Regarding safety, easyJet has many faults but they are onto safety in a big way. I have worked for five airlines and easyJet is up there with the best in terms of safety (my previous one was excellent too). There is much talk about the famous cadets - BA, Lufthansa, Air France and KLM all take cadets and seem to have avoided disaster with them. I have always favoured a broader recruitment policy at easyJet, and believe in not just cadets but taking more experienced pilots too. The issue I would have is the percentage split between cadets and experienced pilots at the recruitment stage, but I do not see us as being drastically different in that department from the legacy carriers. Perhaps others may correct me. Anyway, apologies if I have unwittingly hijacked this thread to correct some rubbish written - I will stand back and let others with an appetite for believing everything written on PPRuNe as fact feast themselves on a diet of misinformation. The truth can be just so boring.
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ADM - I'm surprised someone who earns as much as you doesn't have a basic understanding of irony. That's ironic.
But rather than spending time looking that word up in a dictionary - why don't you just tell us all again about your life as a TRE?
But rather than spending time looking that word up in a dictionary - why don't you just tell us all again about your life as a TRE?
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I've heard it all. A lesson on the morality of paying in full ones tax liability from a former Ryanair pilot. Oh the irony.
I left, (and am happier and better off) and I know loads of others who have done the same, or are on the way.
Which with beautiful symmetry, brings us back to the thread topic.
Edit: beaten to it by the two posts above!
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We live in our little PPRuNe world where countless people post drivel and misinformation about different companies.
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Alexander itīs great to see first hand the conditions in Easyjet. So comparing the two the gap is getting bigger and bigger it looks like. Looking at the developments separately in Ryanair and Easyjet the reasons for the differences gets very obvious and perhaps itīs time to reverse that trend for the Ryanair guys. I really hope so anyway since they really are worth a lot more than what they get presently.
So perhaps there is a window of opportunity here for it.
So perhaps there is a window of opportunity here for it.
Worked for both, almost equal time (about 6 years), captain throughout so maybe I can add a little objectivity.
Which one is best? They are both such huge companies, the spectrum is very wide within both.
Both have excellent people working for them, the actual job is much easier in easyjet as the tools are provided to do it properly. But on the other side, I've shared the flightdeck with far more interesting people in Ryanair (and learnt much more about different cultures). The opportunity to climb to various roles are much easier in Ryanair but rewarded much better in easyjet. Routes are now similar so there's not much difference there, they weren't historically and the number of circle to land in 6 years at easy is equal to a month at Ryanair. The ferocity of the operation is definitely different (it felt like hitting the stops when I changed company), and fudging of times to appease the OTP doesn't exist in easy! I'm definitely more relaxed and less fatigued.
Financially, I'm much better off simply because of the union. The reason for leaving one and joining the other was not financial, but I was on a good contract and I realise that things have gone South significantly since I left.
I made lifelong friends whilst at Ryanair, and support their fight to improve T&Cs. This fight is paramount to setting the benchmark and is in everyone's interest. We must rejoice that we have another competitor to keep both giants on their guard. From the friends I have that have joined Norwegian, they seem very happy and their future looks very interesting.
Would I jump ship again? I don't think so, unless they make it much more attractive and their future looks more secure. I'm happy with my lot.
P.S airbus over Boeing any day of the week!
Which one is best? They are both such huge companies, the spectrum is very wide within both.
Both have excellent people working for them, the actual job is much easier in easyjet as the tools are provided to do it properly. But on the other side, I've shared the flightdeck with far more interesting people in Ryanair (and learnt much more about different cultures). The opportunity to climb to various roles are much easier in Ryanair but rewarded much better in easyjet. Routes are now similar so there's not much difference there, they weren't historically and the number of circle to land in 6 years at easy is equal to a month at Ryanair. The ferocity of the operation is definitely different (it felt like hitting the stops when I changed company), and fudging of times to appease the OTP doesn't exist in easy! I'm definitely more relaxed and less fatigued.
Financially, I'm much better off simply because of the union. The reason for leaving one and joining the other was not financial, but I was on a good contract and I realise that things have gone South significantly since I left.
I made lifelong friends whilst at Ryanair, and support their fight to improve T&Cs. This fight is paramount to setting the benchmark and is in everyone's interest. We must rejoice that we have another competitor to keep both giants on their guard. From the friends I have that have joined Norwegian, they seem very happy and their future looks very interesting.
Would I jump ship again? I don't think so, unless they make it much more attractive and their future looks more secure. I'm happy with my lot.
P.S airbus over Boeing any day of the week!
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It's amazing; the change in attitudes. Years ago, before LoCo's it was principally the national schedule carriers, division 2 schedule carriers and the charters. (I have not forgotten the freight boys). The charter guys were striving to improve their lot and used the best of the division 2 schedule carriers as a datum. (it was always realised that the cherry on the cake of BA, KLM, AF, LH etc. was not realistic, but Bcal, VZ, Condor, Martinair etc were.) Those who kept the faith did achieve much improved T's & C's. Then along came the LoCo's and they were the only people hiring. Their T's & C's became the datum, as they were the only ones available. In the early 2000's there was a pissing contest between ez & RYR management. (Go was not yet born and was short lived anyway). RYR pumped out that its guys were the best paid B737 jockeys in Europe. Utter twaddle, but no-one contradicted them. Since then RYR T's & C's have slid downhill and not for many years have they trumpeted their salary superiority. They have only trumpeted their profits, job security, stable roster and new shiny toys. But there's much more to the life of a worker than those.
Now, it is back to a bun fight between the rewards of ez & RYR, again. No where do we hear the comparisons of old between the LoCo's and the longer established packages from the profit making schedule carriers. There is more to the market place than Orange & Blue. Why are people setting their sights so low? Talking to mates in BA, KLM, HV, VZ, LH they are on another planet compared to the new boys on the block. They are retiring on pensions more than my final years income, and years sooner. Ticket price comparisons in Europe between the LoCo's and the nationals are showing very competitive bottom line costs on many routes. Raise your sights and widen your horizons or you will descend blinkered into the darkness and wondered how you ever let it happen.
Now, it is back to a bun fight between the rewards of ez & RYR, again. No where do we hear the comparisons of old between the LoCo's and the longer established packages from the profit making schedule carriers. There is more to the market place than Orange & Blue. Why are people setting their sights so low? Talking to mates in BA, KLM, HV, VZ, LH they are on another planet compared to the new boys on the block. They are retiring on pensions more than my final years income, and years sooner. Ticket price comparisons in Europe between the LoCo's and the nationals are showing very competitive bottom line costs on many routes. Raise your sights and widen your horizons or you will descend blinkered into the darkness and wondered how you ever let it happen.
Last edited by RAT 5; 26th Mar 2014 at 17:15.
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Pilots will continue to leave Ryanair at the first available opportunity. As soon as the shiny jet syndrome wears off, it becomes apparent that they treat their staff pretty awful.
Many of the new breed now think that its perfectly normal not to have any annual leave during the school holidays, no fair basing system and being part of a limited company set-up based in Ireland.
Long may the exodus continue.
Many of the new breed now think that its perfectly normal not to have any annual leave during the school holidays, no fair basing system and being part of a limited company set-up based in Ireland.
Long may the exodus continue.
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According to ppjn.com, Emirates will open a new base in Chinese owned airport Schwerin Parchim in northern Germany. Heavy expansion into US & European markets planned.
If this is true, there will be much more pilots leaving...
The future is looking so interesting!
If this is true, there will be much more pilots leaving...
The future is looking so interesting!
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I think it's highly unlikely that T&C's will improve until flights are being cancelled due lack of crew and from what I hear its not just about the money, far from it, so any change to address the real issues will be neither quick or cheap to implement.
Norwegian have taken large numbers of ex FR crew and will likely to continue to do so this year, it gets interesting when thinking through how or if they introduce the airbus fleet on order, where will they go and who will fly them, clearly any movement from the NG fleet to the bus will mean a need to back fill the NG jobs, a present there is no plan to phase out the NG, the bus is filling a gap until the MAX turns up in a couple of years time.
Whether Norwegian can poach experienced staff from easyJet in the same way they have from FR i think is unlikely, but there are a lot of people in the sandpit who want out with airbus ratings
Norwegian have taken large numbers of ex FR crew and will likely to continue to do so this year, it gets interesting when thinking through how or if they introduce the airbus fleet on order, where will they go and who will fly them, clearly any movement from the NG fleet to the bus will mean a need to back fill the NG jobs, a present there is no plan to phase out the NG, the bus is filling a gap until the MAX turns up in a couple of years time.
Whether Norwegian can poach experienced staff from easyJet in the same way they have from FR i think is unlikely, but there are a lot of people in the sandpit who want out with airbus ratings