Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?
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It all comes down to cost base
At the end of the day FR still have by a huge margin a lower cost base than virtually all other European airlines, indeed FR describe themselves as a "ultra low cost airline" the recent change in strategy to move to more main steam airports and reduced baggage fee's and other charges will no doubt over time nibble away at their cost advantage, but we are talking of a few cents at best, the biggest cost impact would come from addressing the main reason that many experienced FR pilots are calling it a day, which from conversations i've had seem to be lack of certainty of the pilot tax & social insurance position, lack of standby pay, lack of holiday pay and a basing policy that can lead to you living out of a suitcase, the actual money earned doesn't seem bad, but the rub is that throwing more money at the problem through increased sector pay will not address the real issues.
Unfortunately when you know the cost of everything but don't understand the value of anything then this is what happens, I personally don't see it changing whilst ever MOL is in charge, pilots are a cost they detract from the bottom line and add nothing to the business seems to be the mantra, perhaps it's no bad thing, their low cost and prices seems to attract a larger share of the bottom feeders in pax terms, the people who benefit from this approach appear to be FlyDubai & Norwegian and the sand pitt T7 operators, funny old world.
Unfortunately when you know the cost of everything but don't understand the value of anything then this is what happens, I personally don't see it changing whilst ever MOL is in charge, pilots are a cost they detract from the bottom line and add nothing to the business seems to be the mantra, perhaps it's no bad thing, their low cost and prices seems to attract a larger share of the bottom feeders in pax terms, the people who benefit from this approach appear to be FlyDubai & Norwegian and the sand pitt T7 operators, funny old world.
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And while you are all discussing how to improve pilot conditions, you don't realise or you don't care about the fact that any increase in pilot conditions directly means a decrease in cabin crew conditions who have far less capability to organise themselves.
It's probably the later, never met such egocentric characters than in an FR flight deck.
It's probably the later, never met such egocentric characters than in an FR flight deck.
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LNIDA
So you are saying that the quality of training is better in Ryanair than it is in the other carriers you quote because they (FR) need to do more of it? This could equally imply the training is worse as it takes the trainer double the time to achieve the desired result! I don't believe the standards of training are anything less than very good in all of the airlines you quote.
Could it be that the other carriers are generally taking on a more experienced pilot/better quality recruit in the first place, and hence doesn't need to waste expensive training resource teaching grandma to suck eggs?
What these stats imply at first glance (if they are true) is that FR take significantly more sectors to get their recruits to a certain standard i.e. where the F/O no longer needs to fly with a trainer. However, from the above posts it appears that this may however be cost driven, so in reality no conclusion can be drawn about either training standards or the standard of candidates.
If i misunderstand the point you are making I apologise, you seem to me? to be saying that there is no evidence that Ryanair pilots receive better training than other airlines, a simple yard stick is the minimum number of sectors a pilot is required to complete before being released for final line check and released to line if the check is passed.
Ryanair min 80 sectors
Norwegian 40
Monarch 10
Jet2 20
Ryanair min 80 sectors
Norwegian 40
Monarch 10
Jet2 20
Could it be that the other carriers are generally taking on a more experienced pilot/better quality recruit in the first place, and hence doesn't need to waste expensive training resource teaching grandma to suck eggs?
What these stats imply at first glance (if they are true) is that FR take significantly more sectors to get their recruits to a certain standard i.e. where the F/O no longer needs to fly with a trainer. However, from the above posts it appears that this may however be cost driven, so in reality no conclusion can be drawn about either training standards or the standard of candidates.
Last edited by Rushed Approach; 13th Apr 2014 at 17:16.
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FRyup82, of course yo are right. Instead of cabin crew trying to get together and fight their corner, the RYR pilots should instead take huge pay cuts, work days off unpaid, have no time at home with their family and not fight to make sure their taxes are paid legally just to the cabin crew can get a pay rise. I have no doubt that if their pilots roll over, RYR's management will be so pleased that they will give the money saved to the cabin crew. In the mean time, any group trying collectively to improve life for their families, themselves and their colleagues and trying to ensure their taxes are paid correctly where due should be regarded as insufferably selfish.
FRyup82, you are an arse.
FRyup82, you are an arse.
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In my airline 40 line sectors is typical for ex-CTC or MPL pilots, and that applies right back three decades or so when we first took c. 200 hr pilots onto jets for the first time.
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Rushed approach
I think the answer is a lot more complicated than that, i.e. poor training/candidates.
Lets start with what i would call "willing to fail syndrome" by this i mean there is a large body of people wanting to see MOL/FR fail, these range from other airlines, pilots and of course the press who would love to report a smoking hole in the ground with a harp poking out.
To counter this, the company following a few incidents some years back take a very very strict line on SOP compliance, this is IMO far easier to achieve with fresh blood not tainted by previous experience of other airlines. They know only the FR way
Route threats
FR fly into far more secondary airports then most airlines, often with only NPA available which means they a) have to know what they are doing & B) get more practice at doing it, RNAV approaches using LNAV/VNAV is second nature.
Cost of training
An F/o is required in the RHS whether he/she is under training or not, my understanding is that FR F/o get less per sector when under training than after? so it is actually cheaper than using a regular F/o also the F/o having some how stumped up the funds for training in the first place tend to be focused and keen.
Quality of trainers
More difficult to answer, but they sure get a lot of practice
Quality of training
Well i can only say that the quality and depth of knowledge particularly tech knowledge is by a magnitude better than the average that i have observed with the average of pilots that have come from elsewhere.
90%+ Of accident reports that i have reviewed occurred because of a failure of one or more of three elements, in order these are
1) SOP understanding and compliance/discipline
2) CRM
3) TEM Threat error management
I think FR understand the rule book on safe flying, when one reviews the daily posting on Aviation Herald's web site and how infrequently Ryanair, easyJet & Norwegian feature, even more so given the huge number of sectors flown says volumes.
Of course having new single type fleets, with all the latest safety toys all helps
Ryanair cadets will of course need more sectors because they are not type rated, but you are painting onto a fresh canvas, you are not having to undo someone else's work.
I'm no apologist for FR, far from it, i think they could increase safety even further by addressing some of the absurd employment practices at little or no cost much as they have done with the tweaks to passenger T&C's but lets be clear it is by any standard a very safe airline.
My understanding is that if a pilot needs the toilet a cabin crew member goes inside the flight deck to guard against pilot incapacitation with the other pilot locked outside trying to fumble with door code and waiting 30 sec whilst the guy inside is slumped over the column with the A/P off and in a dive.
Lets start with what i would call "willing to fail syndrome" by this i mean there is a large body of people wanting to see MOL/FR fail, these range from other airlines, pilots and of course the press who would love to report a smoking hole in the ground with a harp poking out.
To counter this, the company following a few incidents some years back take a very very strict line on SOP compliance, this is IMO far easier to achieve with fresh blood not tainted by previous experience of other airlines. They know only the FR way
Route threats
FR fly into far more secondary airports then most airlines, often with only NPA available which means they a) have to know what they are doing & B) get more practice at doing it, RNAV approaches using LNAV/VNAV is second nature.
Cost of training
An F/o is required in the RHS whether he/she is under training or not, my understanding is that FR F/o get less per sector when under training than after? so it is actually cheaper than using a regular F/o also the F/o having some how stumped up the funds for training in the first place tend to be focused and keen.
Quality of trainers
More difficult to answer, but they sure get a lot of practice
Quality of training
Well i can only say that the quality and depth of knowledge particularly tech knowledge is by a magnitude better than the average that i have observed with the average of pilots that have come from elsewhere.
90%+ Of accident reports that i have reviewed occurred because of a failure of one or more of three elements, in order these are
1) SOP understanding and compliance/discipline
2) CRM
3) TEM Threat error management
I think FR understand the rule book on safe flying, when one reviews the daily posting on Aviation Herald's web site and how infrequently Ryanair, easyJet & Norwegian feature, even more so given the huge number of sectors flown says volumes.
Of course having new single type fleets, with all the latest safety toys all helps
Ryanair cadets will of course need more sectors because they are not type rated, but you are painting onto a fresh canvas, you are not having to undo someone else's work.
I'm no apologist for FR, far from it, i think they could increase safety even further by addressing some of the absurd employment practices at little or no cost much as they have done with the tweaks to passenger T&C's but lets be clear it is by any standard a very safe airline.
My understanding is that if a pilot needs the toilet a cabin crew member goes inside the flight deck to guard against pilot incapacitation with the other pilot locked outside trying to fumble with door code and waiting 30 sec whilst the guy inside is slumped over the column with the A/P off and in a dive.
Originally Posted by LNIDA
FR fly into far more secondary airports then most airlines, often with only NPA available which means they a) have to know what they are doing & B) get more practice at doing it, RNAV approaches using LNAV/VNAV is second nature.
An NPA should not be taxing for ANY commercial pilot. If it is, you're on the wrong side of the cockpit door.
themselves at the mention of an NPA.
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Thanks Aluminium shuffler, you just proved my point.
No you could try and improve both pilots and cabin crew conditions rather then just concentrating on your egocentric selves.
No you could try and improve both pilots and cabin crew conditions rather then just concentrating on your egocentric selves.
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Why are Cabin crew conditions now the responsibility of the pilots? How much effort do any CC put into it? How many of you have joined the much cheaper and more effective CC unions? The RYR pilots have a hard enough time fighting for themselves, and seem to be having limited success. Why not fight your own corner rather than crying that others aren't fighting it for you? You are doing exactly what RYR management want - turning on your colleagues and fighting them instead of the management. Stupid isn't strong enough a word...
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Oh we should use current unions? Which one then exactly? About 20 different ones in 20 different countries. And then what? It's not like when pilots joined existing unions like IALPA and BALPA that the succes was overwhelming was it?
Where did I say that pilots need to fight for the cabin crew. I'm talking about fighting together. Has anyone from REPA ever approached any CC to try and do that?
As long as you have a couple of 1000 EUR on your bankaccount right? Never mind that no4 CC that barely gets 900EUR on a bad month.
Btw, name calling is a sign of weakness. Very adult behaviour!
Where did I say that pilots need to fight for the cabin crew. I'm talking about fighting together. Has anyone from REPA ever approached any CC to try and do that?
As long as you have a couple of 1000 EUR on your bankaccount right? Never mind that no4 CC that barely gets 900EUR on a bad month.
Btw, name calling is a sign of weakness. Very adult behaviour!
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You think that pilots get so much more in a bad month then 900€ considering they pay double social security up to 50% +21% tax + accountant costs... and fly 30hours/month. Anyway goodluck with the fight 
and fly 30hours/month. Anyway goodluck with the fight
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I'm on the "new" contract, flying an average of 60bh per month. After irish taxes and spanish social security I'm getting around 3500net. Obviously in some bases you fly 30(which is the minimum payed by the company now, on this contract) which mean you will earn 1700net. But now i see most of the fo's in most bases are flying quite a lot, if you a good month you can bring home 4,5/5k after tax wich is not bad in my opinion. No need to say that i prefer less net money and a normal contract, as far as i know now regular FR CONTRACT fo's are getting around 3-3,5 per month for 12 months.
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fulmin,
I presume you are new? You still have your TR and LT cost to claim as expenses. How "doped" is your salary? Wait until you pay full Irish PAYE, possibly USC and PRSI. Are you Spanish? Do you expect to enjoy any of the benefits from paying Spanish SI, i.e. accumulate pension? Keep in mind you are only paid 11 out of 12 months. Do you expect any rise to match inflation? Not exactly industry leading.
I presume you are new? You still have your TR and LT cost to claim as expenses. How "doped" is your salary? Wait until you pay full Irish PAYE, possibly USC and PRSI. Are you Spanish? Do you expect to enjoy any of the benefits from paying Spanish SI, i.e. accumulate pension? Keep in mind you are only paid 11 out of 12 months. Do you expect any rise to match inflation? Not exactly industry leading.