Copilots in training departments
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Copilots in training departments
Hi all. I've always wondered about this. Are there any airlines out there where copilots are actively involved in their training department? If so, what do they do? In most airlines I know, captains (TC's or not) do everything ie ground instruction, sim instruction, revision of manuals etc.
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A major European locost uses FO's as SFT (Simulator Flight Instructors ) during the Training Day preceding the PC , and also (I believe ) during TR courses.
The ones I had did a great job, usually with very +ve attitude too.
The ones I had did a great job, usually with very +ve attitude too.
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In my airline FO where used as SFT (but only to other FO and on the first 4 days, never to a CPT or during a PC check) during some time but know only CPT are involved in sim training. Yes they are allowed to do CRM, dangerous goods, etc. I think they are allowed to give ground school too. Basicaly only ground training.
More than one UK long haul airline uses them. I think it's viewed as a bit of 'career relief' for experienced F/Os who have a long wait for the seniority for a command. It can be viewed as best use of resources, but the problem with this system is that they lack credibility. In one of the UK airlines, they are known as the "Hitler Youth".
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I think the system works fine in a "nationality neutral " or "multi nationality " company.
Without referring to one company in particular I wouldn't like to be a Capt faced with some "local" hot-shot giving me grief & a grading in some Middle Eastern companies for example. The agendas in companies like that are too complicated to have someone "junior" in rank given the responsibility of assessing Johnny Foreigner.
Without referring to one company in particular I wouldn't like to be a Capt faced with some "local" hot-shot giving me grief & a grading in some Middle Eastern companies for example. The agendas in companies like that are too complicated to have someone "junior" in rank given the responsibility of assessing Johnny Foreigner.
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Fair point!
"In my last airline", a handful of people would complain about being trained by FOs, but they were always the same people that were, well... incompetent in some way.
"In my last airline", a handful of people would complain about being trained by FOs, but they were always the same people that were, well... incompetent in some way.
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I was a Training First Officer in my first airline, I did Type Rating groundschool, pilot induction, recurrent and differences courses. It was, in my opinion, great for development etc...
My next airline wouldn't even consider such a thing, training could only be done by captains, senior captains, captains that had been in the organisation a long time, captains that were indeed winged skygods....
I'm glad I'm where I am now.
My next airline wouldn't even consider such a thing, training could only be done by captains, senior captains, captains that had been in the organisation a long time, captains that were indeed winged skygods....
I'm glad I'm where I am now.
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Why the hell not?
I have known F/O's who used to be doctors, teachers, lawyers, vets, engineers and much else. Many Captains left school and went straight into the Airforce where they learned to fly upside down and developed an innate sense of superiority. They then joined the airlines, were promoted in under five minutes and became trainers ten minutes after that. Once in place they proceeded to deny any involvement in training to First officers, did their best to deny them command unless they had followed the same career path as the god like Captains and generally insisted that every activity, from work outside the cockpit to starting the bloody engines was the sole preserve of the "officer class". They also acted like utter arses in the simulator, believing that only those with the correct background should be graded as suitable and thinking that pressing every button on the panel in order to cause a mental breakdown at the front was "training".
Most of these idiots were simply fortunate to be in the right place at the right time but were utterly convinced that it was their god like powers that led them into training. And furthermore, everyone else was/is useless.
Imagine this kind of scenario in any other profession.
Aviation and the seniority system is the biggest waste of people's talent ever devised by humanity. I am very glad that I shall shortly be calling it a day. Redundancy can sometimes be both an eye opener and a blessing.
I have known F/O's who used to be doctors, teachers, lawyers, vets, engineers and much else. Many Captains left school and went straight into the Airforce where they learned to fly upside down and developed an innate sense of superiority. They then joined the airlines, were promoted in under five minutes and became trainers ten minutes after that. Once in place they proceeded to deny any involvement in training to First officers, did their best to deny them command unless they had followed the same career path as the god like Captains and generally insisted that every activity, from work outside the cockpit to starting the bloody engines was the sole preserve of the "officer class". They also acted like utter arses in the simulator, believing that only those with the correct background should be graded as suitable and thinking that pressing every button on the panel in order to cause a mental breakdown at the front was "training".
Most of these idiots were simply fortunate to be in the right place at the right time but were utterly convinced that it was their god like powers that led them into training. And furthermore, everyone else was/is useless.
Imagine this kind of scenario in any other profession.
Aviation and the seniority system is the biggest waste of people's talent ever devised by humanity. I am very glad that I shall shortly be calling it a day. Redundancy can sometimes be both an eye opener and a blessing.
Last edited by zeddb; 19th Feb 2014 at 16:04.
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true story...
Practising winter Ops in the sim a few years ago, simulating slippery conditions, the FO and I decided that we didn't have sufficient grip to provide safe directional control on the ramp and so I set the parkbrake and the FO called up for a tow back onto stand.
The SFI (a First Officer at a "major European Lowcost" as captplaystation would say) was incredulous and enquired "Would you really do that?"
We both said "yes".
He said "well I don't think The Company would be too impressed!"
"They wouldn't be impressed if we skidded off the ramp either" said my colleague on my right, attempting to justify our decision.
4 days later, "The Company" had parked one in the mud at Prestwick.
Draw your own conclusions.
Practising winter Ops in the sim a few years ago, simulating slippery conditions, the FO and I decided that we didn't have sufficient grip to provide safe directional control on the ramp and so I set the parkbrake and the FO called up for a tow back onto stand.
The SFI (a First Officer at a "major European Lowcost" as captplaystation would say) was incredulous and enquired "Would you really do that?"
We both said "yes".
He said "well I don't think The Company would be too impressed!"
"They wouldn't be impressed if we skidded off the ramp either" said my colleague on my right, attempting to justify our decision.
4 days later, "The Company" had parked one in the mud at Prestwick.
Draw your own conclusions.
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Despite my rant I have met some very good trainers over the years. However to deny someone a training position just because they didn't join the company on the right day and consequently are a long term FO whereas the Captains obviously left the womb with the title "commander" is an utter nonsense and is quite unbelievable to people in other professions where appointments are made on the basis of experience and ability, not just your star sign and inside leg measurement.
That does not change the fact that there are some unutterable twa*ts who become trainers. Not because they want to impart knowledge or pass on their experience to others but simply to bolster their immense egos and feelings of ineffable superiority over everyone else. In a previous airline, some of them wanted an extra bit of gold braid on their uniforms to distinguish them from the common herd. I would have suggested a stripe around their nether regions, except they couldn't make the braiding small enough.
That does not change the fact that there are some unutterable twa*ts who become trainers. Not because they want to impart knowledge or pass on their experience to others but simply to bolster their immense egos and feelings of ineffable superiority over everyone else. In a previous airline, some of them wanted an extra bit of gold braid on their uniforms to distinguish them from the common herd. I would have suggested a stripe around their nether regions, except they couldn't make the braiding small enough.
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My emloyer and major European airline have excellent FO sim insructors and FO as chief pilot. These are high time, highly experienced, military officers or civil pilots. Seat position is not important. Most senior FOs today have previous captain time from military or civilian flying.
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Alcidyon, I'm not sure what the link between those two stories is. Are you suggesting that the Commander in question wouldn't have had the incident if they had refused to set off for the day? As I recall (I was there on the day), plenty of other aircraft made it around that corner just fine - the problem was caused by a total lack of appreciation/anticipation of the conditions.
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zeddb,
you painted a perfect picture of the UK's "2nd airline" in the late eighties/early nineties.
Totally unsuitable (in at least 50% of the cases) individuals given training positions, purely by virtue of "right squadron" or "right handshake".
Having left blighty behind some 21 years ago, I cannot comment on whether that reflects the current status. . . regrettably, I would wager it probably does.
you painted a perfect picture of the UK's "2nd airline" in the late eighties/early nineties.
Totally unsuitable (in at least 50% of the cases) individuals given training positions, purely by virtue of "right squadron" or "right handshake".
Having left blighty behind some 21 years ago, I cannot comment on whether that reflects the current status. . . regrettably, I would wager it probably does.
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why do none of you ever just say the name of the airline you work(ed) for? Its not as if you're giving them free advertising and I'm thus going to book my next holiday with them or anything.
Unless there is a genuine, more important reason which I am at present unaware of
Unless there is a genuine, more important reason which I am at present unaware of
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They lack credibility with certain types of people. Usually the people who lack credibility themselves, in my experience.They lack credibility with certain types of people. Usually the people who lack credibility themselves, in my experience.
Nobody in their right mind posts on a public forum and links themselves to their employer in this day and age. This is a place for personal opinions that are completely separate from company comms.