Norwegian A320neo order
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I agree ! I would still be at a Spansh base if it were not for some (tragic) personal circumstances and UK business interests.
The Spanish base provided a great lifestyle working with a lot of very good people, if my decision was on working conditions alone I would still be in Spain.
The Spanish base provided a great lifestyle working with a lot of very good people, if my decision was on working conditions alone I would still be in Spain.
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How does the basing policy work for a new joiner guys?
say I wanted to join in order to be based in MAD, is it clear from the beginning what base they give you? and can they change your base any time?
say I wanted to join in order to be based in MAD, is it clear from the beginning what base they give you? and can they change your base any time?
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John Smith, thank you for your timely injection of common sense.
I've read this thread and there's a lot of talk about NAS saving the industry or words to that effect. Wake up guys!! Whether you like it or not, it's about making money and that depends solely on your costs versus how much you can sell tickets for.
This may give you a warm fuzzy feeling but if they're spending 400 Euros per pilot on giving them that warm fuzzy feeling then I would have to ask myself where else are they p1$$ing money up the wall.
EZY and Ryanair are operating in quite different marketplaces with little overlap. EZY compete with the legacy carriers at the prime airports whereas Ryanair keep their costs down by using secondary airports. It's a different business model. The question is where do NAS fit into this? If NAS can offer a superior service for exactly the same price then they will do well. But if their costs are higher then they won't actually make any money. If it doesn't make any money then the shareholders will pull the plug. I may be the not-so-proud owner of a cheap plastic coat, but that gives me the warm fuzzy feeling that my employer is not paying over the odds for anything else either. If you check the easyjet share price then you will see that the 'plastic coat' approach to costs seems to be working well.
I'm not sure what kind of high pressure sales techniques you think are going on down the back in other airlines but it mostly consists of 'any drinks or snacks for you sir/madam?'. Anything which causes people to shut their wallets really doesn't go down well.
I wish NAS the best of luck because I think they're going I need it. To me, something doesn't add up.
I've read this thread and there's a lot of talk about NAS saving the industry or words to that effect. Wake up guys!! Whether you like it or not, it's about making money and that depends solely on your costs versus how much you can sell tickets for.
The difference in uniform cost will be a €400 or so, but when you wear one and walk past some other airlines crews you know you belong some where that values quality
the problem for EZY is that RYR are aiming to squeeze the bottom end of the EZY customer base and Norwegian are squeezing the top end with a superior product at a comparable price.........interesting times ahead
Norwegian has gone down the road of offering high class refreshments delivered promptly to the passengers and that is what the passengers seem to like, rather than what they see as the bullying tactics of RYR ( and to a lesser extent EZY) that just makes them shut their wallets.
I wish NAS the best of luck because I think they're going I need it. To me, something doesn't add up.
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It's a rather sad reflection of the industry when having a half decent paid for uniform can be considered p1$$ing money up the wall, and that having one is seen as a bad thing.
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The only has to be one winner in this, or?
First EZY discovered they could win over more customers by offering more and better service, closing the gap to the legacy carriers.
Then RYR discovered their rotten treatment of customers was actually moving them backwards, so they now try some late chance gimmicks with seating and x-tra small carry on bag, to try to get some positive publicity.
Recently I took a flight with with NAS, early morning flight from LGW, first there was no rush and stand 1.5 hours waiting for boarding. Boarding announcement, everybody walked to their allocated seating. I would say the boarding was faster then the free for all you see at some RyR flights.
As I was with my daughter, we was both tired, we took of dimmed down lights, and during cruise, guess what, not those bright full on cabin lights, to make you have the most possible unpleasant experience, the lights was dimmed down, so if you wanted to relax / sleep, you could do this.
With the other LoCo's, as soon as they go into cruise, it's full lights on, announcements about one thing after the other, it does your head in. I actually bring ear-plugs and sun glasses in, so I can stay in
peace.
Because the way they treat me, I am less likely to want to purchase anything, because these companies make me the passenger annoyed. With NAS, I felt respected and I did purchase some things for breakfast for my daughter and me.
RyR a little late are discovering what they have been doing have been upsetting customers, however have had little or no competition on their routes.
People / customers, are willing to pay a little more, to have these extra services and comfort. Not talking about legacy prices, but within reasonable range of say example RyR.
Also it does depend on what level profit margin the companies settles for, of course you can do like some companies do, squeeze the maximum from customers, employees and services, to make the maximum profit in shortest possible time, or are you in it for the long term.
Let's make another point clear, what happens the day government wakes up and discovers how LoCo's like Ryanair have been avoiding their social responsibilities for their employees and contractors.
Will RyR have enough capital to have to back pay for this? The social dumping model, that these corporations are dealing with is very dangerous and fragile, and there is no doubt that this is heading towards a brick wall.
I know NAS have a very different approach to this, maybe not perfect world either, but definitely much more tidy than all the other LoCo's in Europe.
The fact is that the difference between example NAS and SAS is much less now, SAS standards gone down, NAS gone up, and it seems NAS is targeting a market where people appreciate quality in addition to good value for money.
EZY have themselves discovered that this is the only way forward, and RYR are waking up, but what the future will bring for these companies depends on what the customers want.
The current trend is that customers are not happy with RYR, and believe me after flying with NAS, you would never return to RYR unless you had no other options.
In addition if you can treat your staff good, I guess NAS is probably the closest any European LoCo has come to the original of Southwest.
Personally I would not classify NAS as a LoCost company.
First EZY discovered they could win over more customers by offering more and better service, closing the gap to the legacy carriers.
Then RYR discovered their rotten treatment of customers was actually moving them backwards, so they now try some late chance gimmicks with seating and x-tra small carry on bag, to try to get some positive publicity.
Recently I took a flight with with NAS, early morning flight from LGW, first there was no rush and stand 1.5 hours waiting for boarding. Boarding announcement, everybody walked to their allocated seating. I would say the boarding was faster then the free for all you see at some RyR flights.
As I was with my daughter, we was both tired, we took of dimmed down lights, and during cruise, guess what, not those bright full on cabin lights, to make you have the most possible unpleasant experience, the lights was dimmed down, so if you wanted to relax / sleep, you could do this.
With the other LoCo's, as soon as they go into cruise, it's full lights on, announcements about one thing after the other, it does your head in. I actually bring ear-plugs and sun glasses in, so I can stay in
peace.Because the way they treat me, I am less likely to want to purchase anything, because these companies make me the passenger annoyed. With NAS, I felt respected and I did purchase some things for breakfast for my daughter and me.
RyR a little late are discovering what they have been doing have been upsetting customers, however have had little or no competition on their routes.
People / customers, are willing to pay a little more, to have these extra services and comfort. Not talking about legacy prices, but within reasonable range of say example RyR.
Also it does depend on what level profit margin the companies settles for, of course you can do like some companies do, squeeze the maximum from customers, employees and services, to make the maximum profit in shortest possible time, or are you in it for the long term.
Let's make another point clear, what happens the day government wakes up and discovers how LoCo's like Ryanair have been avoiding their social responsibilities for their employees and contractors.
Will RyR have enough capital to have to back pay for this? The social dumping model, that these corporations are dealing with is very dangerous and fragile, and there is no doubt that this is heading towards a brick wall.
I know NAS have a very different approach to this, maybe not perfect world either, but definitely much more tidy than all the other LoCo's in Europe.
The fact is that the difference between example NAS and SAS is much less now, SAS standards gone down, NAS gone up, and it seems NAS is targeting a market where people appreciate quality in addition to good value for money.
EZY have themselves discovered that this is the only way forward, and RYR are waking up, but what the future will bring for these companies depends on what the customers want.
The current trend is that customers are not happy with RYR, and believe me after flying with NAS, you would never return to RYR unless you had no other options.
In addition if you can treat your staff good, I guess NAS is probably the closest any European LoCo has come to the original of Southwest.
Personally I would not classify NAS as a LoCost company.
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767200ER, I can assure you that uniform envy is not something I suffer with. If I really wanted to, I could use some of the free shares that I have been given by my employer to buy a top of the range, diamond encrusted Gucci rain coat. I do, however, have better things to do with my money, and so does my employer.
A and C, I'm sure that people far smarter than me, have figured out that making those PA's increases sales. So as those sales are an important part of ancillary revenue, the PA's will continue. They don't work on you, they don't work on me. But they work, and that's what matters. I think business people might be prepared to pay a little extra for the civilised atmosphere on board a NAS flight. But as anyone in any airline's commercial department will tell you, the majority of people will just go with the cheapest option. So, if NAS are going to price-match EZY and Ryanair but have higher costs then there can only be one result.
One thing's for sure, it will be interesting to watch, as NAS have certainly put the cat among the pigeons.
A and C, I'm sure that people far smarter than me, have figured out that making those PA's increases sales. So as those sales are an important part of ancillary revenue, the PA's will continue. They don't work on you, they don't work on me. But they work, and that's what matters. I think business people might be prepared to pay a little extra for the civilised atmosphere on board a NAS flight. But as anyone in any airline's commercial department will tell you, the majority of people will just go with the cheapest option. So, if NAS are going to price-match EZY and Ryanair but have higher costs then there can only be one result.
One thing's for sure, it will be interesting to watch, as NAS have certainly put the cat among the pigeons.
I am sure DY has a good product at the moment but never the less it is known that DY compared to FR and EZY is the one with the least capital in hand and some claim there are some serious problems ahead for DY and their cash-flow.
I have never flown with them (yet) and I keep hearing of their free wifi and the non existing (in flight) high sale pressure technique by the cabin crew. It is worth however having a look at the fuel price that has dropped some +6% in the last 12 months and now DY has just announced a need to increase baggage and allocated seat selection by 33%.
Unlike what many on this thread believe DY is not considered a big threat by EZY. Not yet anyway? The main threat for EZY is Vuelling owned by IAG and we may in the future see BA short haul LGW being replaced by Vuelling planes and a base on very bad terms and conditions making it very competitive against EZY and that includes DY as well if they are still based in LGW by that time.
Regarding wifi it is believed that it will be on all EZY planes by 2017.
I wish DY all the best but I seriously think they have got too many balls up in the air trying to compete against everybody and it can easily be the end of them no matter how many planes they have got on order.
I have never flown with them (yet) and I keep hearing of their free wifi and the non existing (in flight) high sale pressure technique by the cabin crew. It is worth however having a look at the fuel price that has dropped some +6% in the last 12 months and now DY has just announced a need to increase baggage and allocated seat selection by 33%.
Unlike what many on this thread believe DY is not considered a big threat by EZY. Not yet anyway? The main threat for EZY is Vuelling owned by IAG and we may in the future see BA short haul LGW being replaced by Vuelling planes and a base on very bad terms and conditions making it very competitive against EZY and that includes DY as well if they are still based in LGW by that time.
Regarding wifi it is believed that it will be on all EZY planes by 2017.
I wish DY all the best but I seriously think they have got too many balls up in the air trying to compete against everybody and it can easily be the end of them no matter how many planes they have got on order.
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I think this also depends on what is your main customer base. I do know many who detest companies like RYR that they rather stay at home than fly with them. This is no longer a small minority group.
Customers attracted to Norway and Scandi-land are also of a stronger financial resource than many of RYR's main customer base, no taunt intended, but the social structure and financial strength of Norway vs example UK, can't even be compared. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world, with a very advanced social structure.
UK with regards to average population can't compare in financial strength of their customer base, and probably will find more customers not able to afford better than RYR. But also in UK, as soon as you go to the mid-level income and upwards, they are equally detested by RYR.
If you check EZY's new ideas from 2013, you can clearly see they are moving away from this LoCost model. It is better to fill the AC 120 PAX that are willing to spend their money, rather than 180 PAX that all bring their own lunch package from home, not spending a penny onboard, because they have already exceeded their budget on booking their tickets and £50 per extra luggage.
Considering this example the tickets for the 120 PAX will have cost the same as RYR's 180 pax total. RYR have cheaper tickets and cheaper clients, with less spending power.
Of course you still have many countries where they have no other option, where they still can not afford more, so they have to bring their own lunch and drinks.
Value the customers, make the customers feel like they are valued, and they will be coming back for more. Get robbed 40 Euros for each kilo overweight, or 200 Euro for not printing your boarding card in advance, and the publicity over time will kill your business.
Customers attracted to Norway and Scandi-land are also of a stronger financial resource than many of RYR's main customer base, no taunt intended, but the social structure and financial strength of Norway vs example UK, can't even be compared. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world, with a very advanced social structure.
UK with regards to average population can't compare in financial strength of their customer base, and probably will find more customers not able to afford better than RYR. But also in UK, as soon as you go to the mid-level income and upwards, they are equally detested by RYR.
If you check EZY's new ideas from 2013, you can clearly see they are moving away from this LoCost model. It is better to fill the AC 120 PAX that are willing to spend their money, rather than 180 PAX that all bring their own lunch package from home, not spending a penny onboard, because they have already exceeded their budget on booking their tickets and £50 per extra luggage.
Considering this example the tickets for the 120 PAX will have cost the same as RYR's 180 pax total. RYR have cheaper tickets and cheaper clients, with less spending power.
Of course you still have many countries where they have no other option, where they still can not afford more, so they have to bring their own lunch and drinks.
Value the customers, make the customers feel like they are valued, and they will be coming back for more. Get robbed 40 Euros for each kilo overweight, or 200 Euro for not printing your boarding card in advance, and the publicity over time will kill your business.
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Norway may indeed be one of the richest countries in the world but:
Population of Norway : 5 million
Population of the UK: 63 million
As far as the uniform goes no way it would cost 400 euros more. The Ezy uniform cannot cost them more than 70 quid all in, half of that being administration and delivery. It is cheap, it feels cheap, it is demoralizing and it reminds us everyday of what the company thinks of us. I think it is extremely bad value for money considering what a uniform is meant to achieve in the first place. There are always people that don't care what they wear in the same way that we see people going on holiday in January with shorts, a t shirt and flip flops. I would say that for most of us is pretty depressing. Specially that nylon winter coat.
The NAS uniform must be a lot better but I bet it doesn't really cost that much more. You must remember that EZY is very very good at saving that extra 10p that will cost an extra 5 pounds in the long run.
Personally I hope NAS does well and bring with them a more human way of doing business. I fear that they are late to the party and they will need a very very large load of cash to take market share from the incumbents.
"Orders are vanity, profits are sanity"
Population of Norway : 5 million
Population of the UK: 63 million
As far as the uniform goes no way it would cost 400 euros more. The Ezy uniform cannot cost them more than 70 quid all in, half of that being administration and delivery. It is cheap, it feels cheap, it is demoralizing and it reminds us everyday of what the company thinks of us. I think it is extremely bad value for money considering what a uniform is meant to achieve in the first place. There are always people that don't care what they wear in the same way that we see people going on holiday in January with shorts, a t shirt and flip flops. I would say that for most of us is pretty depressing. Specially that nylon winter coat.
The NAS uniform must be a lot better but I bet it doesn't really cost that much more. You must remember that EZY is very very good at saving that extra 10p that will cost an extra 5 pounds in the long run.
Personally I hope NAS does well and bring with them a more human way of doing business. I fear that they are late to the party and they will need a very very large load of cash to take market share from the incumbents.
"Orders are vanity, profits are sanity"
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The uniform and all the gear that goes with it(there is a lot) is not even close to 400 euros. Try doubling it and then add on a bit.
All provided by the company.
I quite like the warm and fuzzy feeling as well.
All provided by the company.
I quite like the warm and fuzzy feeling as well.
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WHYEYEMAN
The sales thing is a lot more subtle than you think and very much aimed at the culture of those you are trying to sell to, what works with a family of chavs won't work with the Scandinavians or the British lower middle classes so you have to play to your audience to make the most of the on board sales.
The interesting thing about NAS is the passenger comments when leaving the aircraft, two or three times I have heard " glad you are doing this route, I won't have to use easy jet". But the best was after BA canceled a flight and NAS picked up a few passengers most of who commented that the aircraft and service were as good as BA and the price was so good they did not mind paying for the (much better) refreshments................. And all of them love the WIFI...it must be remembered that the WIFI not only connects to the Internet but also to the aircraft entertainment system.
The fact of the matter is that NAS are not only stealing the top end of the LOCO market from EZY & RYR bit they are also getting a chipping away at the BA & SAS economy passenger base............ These are all people who will spend more money on board than your average chav.
The interesting thing about NAS is the passenger comments when leaving the aircraft, two or three times I have heard " glad you are doing this route, I won't have to use easy jet". But the best was after BA canceled a flight and NAS picked up a few passengers most of who commented that the aircraft and service were as good as BA and the price was so good they did not mind paying for the (much better) refreshments................. And all of them love the WIFI...it must be remembered that the WIFI not only connects to the Internet but also to the aircraft entertainment system.
The fact of the matter is that NAS are not only stealing the top end of the LOCO market from EZY & RYR bit they are also getting a chipping away at the BA & SAS economy passenger base............ These are all people who will spend more money on board than your average chav.
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After a while on these threads we can all pick up the 'party line' each of us is going for. I would be accused, probably correctly, of backing easyJet because I work there and really like it. A and C, for whatever reason is very anti-easyJet and this is fine too. Both of us could be accused of having rose-tinted spectacles in our assessment of the situation, but at this juncture I am sticking to my view that Norwegian are doing a great job at taking on the lo-co companies but will fail in the end. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
Regarding BluSdUp's post, I have to say it is a little 'out there'. He claims to be a former post holder at Ryanair I think but is now clearly very anti. It has the slight air of the lift not going to the top floor and much more like listening to an Eric Cantona press conference than a rational view on the world. I frankly could not follow the logic at all, but Bjorn appears to be the man - I am sure his employees (are they not all contractors?) just love him.
Regarding BluSdUp's post, I have to say it is a little 'out there'. He claims to be a former post holder at Ryanair I think but is now clearly very anti. It has the slight air of the lift not going to the top floor and much more like listening to an Eric Cantona press conference than a rational view on the world. I frankly could not follow the logic at all, but Bjorn appears to be the man - I am sure his employees (are they not all contractors?) just love him.
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but at this juncture I am sticking to my view that Norwegian are doing a great job at taking on the lo-co companies but will fail in the end
DY has been around longer than EZY, has gone about doing what it is good at slowly but surely and can ultimately retreat to a region of the world where you can only get from one end of the country to the other by air (not quite true but....).
Doesn't strike me as a recipe for failure? Nobody needs to go by air in the UK....unless you're trying to get to Cornwall.
But you'd be forgiven for thinking some of the contributors to this board were accountants not pilots. Wishing DY success in reversing the decline that FR and EZY have foisted on pilots T&C's here in the UK is surely desirable?
As for the myopic "only the shareholders views count", thats one of the reasons our country suffers from chronic short-termism, whether it be the pensions industry, infrastructure spending, mortgage provision, re-balancing our economy etc etc
Frankly, its pathetic. Big institutional gains are the ordinary populations loss. Channel 4 news yesterday....RBS GRG Group purposely driving small businesses into the ground.
We need to be doing whats good for ALL of us not just powerful shareholders, especially in an international world.
Meanwhile, the Norwegian SWF is the largest in the world....
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Reversing the decline? Maybe you should read up a bit on the employment tactics DY would like to introduce...
It doesn't take much to wish them (both the Unions and the airline) success from behind your keyboard does it?
Sucking pilots away from Europe's largest LOCO shows a proportion of the population voting with their feet....
I'm not one for going life as if its always a fait accompli.
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The cost of norwegians uniform package including flight cases, overnight cases and so on is circa €1000, a plastic jacket is not much use in Norway in winter!!
Norwegian do not operate like any other LoCo airline in Europe, crew routinely night stop around the net work, it means they can get 5 or sometimes 6 sectors out of a crew and have the aircraft available at the right place for the first wave in the following morning, this includes overnight flight from the Canary Isle to Finland & North Norway & Sweden, which at near 7 hours are too long to do on a return pair, landing at 5 am taking into account the two hour time difference, food service, lights dimmed and sleep, wake up call 20 minutes before landing, no crew or FD PA's, the goal is very high aircraft utilisation, check flight radar 24 after 11pm and see who is flying.
They are user friendly to pax with RM, happy to carry dog's & cat's, unmins, cargo, & connecting flights co-ordinated, the quality is much closer to SWISS than easy jet, let alone Ryanair, the UK volume is tiny compared to its European operations.
Their operation is cost efficient, much of the back office functions are outsourced, the aircraft have EFB with 3G update on the ground, no paper load sheets or flight plans or paper manuals, all data comes SMS to Capt & F/o (who get a phone allowance) and takes seconds to complete hence the very high OTP
I have no idea what the financial performance is, but tomorrow they publish their last quarter of 2013 figures and that will include the period which the 787 tech problems.
Norwegian do not operate like any other LoCo airline in Europe, crew routinely night stop around the net work, it means they can get 5 or sometimes 6 sectors out of a crew and have the aircraft available at the right place for the first wave in the following morning, this includes overnight flight from the Canary Isle to Finland & North Norway & Sweden, which at near 7 hours are too long to do on a return pair, landing at 5 am taking into account the two hour time difference, food service, lights dimmed and sleep, wake up call 20 minutes before landing, no crew or FD PA's, the goal is very high aircraft utilisation, check flight radar 24 after 11pm and see who is flying.
They are user friendly to pax with RM, happy to carry dog's & cat's, unmins, cargo, & connecting flights co-ordinated, the quality is much closer to SWISS than easy jet, let alone Ryanair, the UK volume is tiny compared to its European operations.
Their operation is cost efficient, much of the back office functions are outsourced, the aircraft have EFB with 3G update on the ground, no paper load sheets or flight plans or paper manuals, all data comes SMS to Capt & F/o (who get a phone allowance) and takes seconds to complete hence the very high OTP
I have no idea what the financial performance is, but tomorrow they publish their last quarter of 2013 figures and that will include the period which the 787 tech problems.