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Important meetings held in Oslo by US and EU pilot unions

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Important meetings held in Oslo by US and EU pilot unions

Old 3rd Feb 2014, 21:38
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Important meetings held in Oslo by US and EU pilot unions

Sorry about somewhat bad translation from Norwegian newspapers, using bing translator. But important meetings in Oslo today. Kjos did not have "time" to meget unions. Govement did.

Trade unions from several countries meet in Oslo to fight against the hiring of Thai Norwegian cabin staff.

The Union tops from the United States and Europe will this week meet politicians and the u.s. Ambassador in Oslo in its fight to stop the Norwegians use of Asian crew on long-haul routes.

-This is a very important issue because it's all about rights in the air, "said Captain Lee Moak, who is Chairman of the American pilot associated ALPA, to the current Business (DN), according to NTB.

Associated sets with ten people during the visit in Norway this week. Also other pilot associations in the United States sets with ten people, including from the world's largest low-cost company, Southwest Airlines. The AFL-CIO, the u.s. professional national organization, also sends representatives to the Oslo, Norway, in an attempt to stop the Norwegians license. European pilot associations, with the European Cockpit Association, at the head, sending a total of 15 people, writes the newspaper.


Norwegian boss, Bjorn Kjos, however, has informed that he did not have the time to meet the envoys.

The trade unions are responding to the fact that Norwegians want to use Asian staff, with lower wages, on routes to the United States and Thailand. This will create a trend that other airlines will follow up, say Mr Netskar.

-In legal terms and in principle we are not delighted Norwegians half creative way of doing intercont airline ops on, "said Jack Netskar, head of the international relations of the Norwegian Pilot federations, told NTB.

Also read: the United States ' trade unionists want to deny Norwegian to fly to the United States
He added that Norwegians procedure has attracted global attention in the pilot world and in the industry.

Netskar thinks this is not about wages, but a fragmentation of civil aviation. It involves over the employees ' competence and the authorities ' ability to take control of the industry, he argues.

-Not T-shirts
This hope that trade union leaders to be able to convince the Government and the Parliament, as well as the European Parliament and the Commission.

"We need to have a discussion with the Government about to get control of this," said Netskar

On Tuesday, meet the pilots, among others, Secretary of State John-Ragnar Aarset (H) from the Ministry of transportation.

"We have to get there go that it is something else to provide the flights than to produce a 3-Pack with T-shirts at the lowest possible price," said Netskar.

Chairman Lee Moak is leading a delegation of 10 people from the American pilot associated ALPA, which arrived in Oslo on Monday.

Also pilot the Association from the world's largest low-cost company, Southwest Airlines, is in Oslo, along with representatives from the AFL-CIO, the u.s. professional national organization. 15 people from the European Cockpit Association also participates.

-In low light
Norwegian Air International hope soon to get the operating permit of the Irish authorities. Then, the US authorities decide whether the Norwegian company to get work in the United States with this permission.

-Considering that Norway is in the world's top when it comes to working conditions, is the fact that the Norwegian will move its operations to Ireland in order to exploit labor, regrettable and put Norway in a bad light, "said Moak to today's business community.

He hoped to meet with Norwegian Chief Executive Bjorn Kjos in the course of the four-day norgesbesøket.

Kjos
But in a response letter, type the Kjos that he on such short notice do not find time to meet with them. He says he would like to discuss the fair conditions in the aviation industry with Moak, but argue that global competition is an important element for a free market in the field of civil aviation.

-I mean no organization should go against these principles, he writes.

He reacts by the way that the Norwegian media should have received an invitation to a meeting between the two in Oslo, before Kjos has accepted, and goes on to say that such a meeting "should not be used by anyone of us to affect or delay" the u.s. Government's treatment of the case.

The airline claims by the way that the Americans ' criticism is really all about that they didn't want competition across the Atlantic.

Common front
But Netskar in the Pilot Association points out that the European and American pilots have a common front against a trend in the industry as none of them can see them served with.

-American and European companies have been in competition with each other for many decades, he points out.

Trade Union leaders with the goal of meeting the Norwegian authorities, other unions, the CONFEDERATION of NORWEGIAN ENTERPRISE aviation and u.s. Ambassador George James Tsunis. They should also meet politicians from the labour party in the Storting.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 10:42
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If Norwegian long haul is granted an Irish AOC then i can't see the Americans not granting traffic rights, Norwegian is a massive Boeing customer with a fleet of around 87 Boeing jets and another 120 Boeing jets on order.

Norwegian could fairly quickly replace the Thai crew with Spanish crew if required to satisfy European employment rules, plus it has already recruited American cabin crew and some EASA licenced American pilots, so i don't think this story is going anywhere, they (American unions ) might not like it, but its an open skies agreement.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 12:00
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These guys traveling to Oslo is one of the few things that stands between us and total anarchy in the aviation sector. If Norwegian is allowed to continue on this path, all the worlds crew are screwed, better get that Resumé up to date.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 15:07
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Remember what happened to the shipping industry and 'flags of convenience'. Working conditions, safety, competence etc. went to rock bottom very fast. No idea how it is now, but surely aviation doesn't want to go there? If they can do it with cabin crew how long before the sharp end jockeys come from the same quality of stable? It's only EASA licensing that is a buffer. Considering how the T's & C's and FTL's have fallen in EU under commercial pressure from the operators I don't doubt similar pressure will be focused on the expensive guys. The basic pilot CPL has been diluted beyond recognition over 25 years. Why? Cost. The annual training schedule has been diluted. Why? Cost. The number of licences engineers on the front line has been reduced. Why? Cost.
The pax will not return if the costs & prices rise too much; but you don't buy a BMW for the price of a KIA no matter how many robots they use to make one. Tourists in some countries don't eat the street food for fear of poisoning. The same is true by not flying with certain airlines, but that's fear of more permanent injury. Commercial pressure will continue and costs will be targeted. What happens when there is no more cost cutting possible? Some will aways find a way. Look what the XAA's have allowed over 25 years. Perhaps the have been playing a risk assessment gamble with the improved technology and got away with it so far; just. The future is very uncertain and difficult to predict. There are many thin ends of many wedges out there. Not to mention the tips of icebergs. The runways will be littered with banana skins and the board rooms full of hot air clichés to explain their non-culpability over the smoking holes.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 15:28
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"Norwegian attempts to compete on working conditions and safety. It is contrary to the intent when the airline industry was deregulated in Europe and the United States. Airline companies will compete on routes, products and price. But never on working conditions and safety." - Lee Moak US ALPA
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 15:50
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Safety is paramount in this industry no where more so than in Europe & North America and the safety stats prove this.

This same argument was played out over Ryanair's rapid growth, but those in the know, know that FR have very high safety standards. Its no different with NAS, they don't just take anybody and even some they do take don't make the grade.

Everyone joining (all type rated) will do an absolute minimum of 40 sectors before going on to do a four sector final line check and a lot of further training if to operate to Northern Norway.

Comparison with KIA & BMW is laughable, BMW are good cars for sure, but are very expensive cars in no small part due to very high labour costs in German and social taxes, they do or did make them in South Africa, just has JLR plan to make cars in South America and India

It is social taxation that is killing Europe, Europe is 7% of the worlds population, produces 25% of the worlds GP and 50% of the worlds benefit payments.

America, the land of the free market and protectionism

One could also say that given the very high salaries paid to pilots and cabin crew in Norway (including Norwegian) that the US carries flying to this part of Scandinavia are involved in social dumping because their salaries and living standards are so much lower ??

Just a union freebie
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 17:38
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I still can't figure out how they can employ Thai cabin crew on a scheduled originating flight from London to LAX with an EU registered aircraft which is based in the UK. There's no way that can be in accordance with employment rules in the UK, or in the EU.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 21:50
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There is no dubt that Norwegians boss Kjoss supports the race to the bottom. The low cost airlines arrived at a time when the legacy airlines was the most vulnerable. So did Norwegian, as it was "reborn" after the Braathens days. There was a stability between the airlines on both sides of the pond. That stability has been disturbed by Norwegian. Finding loopholes in the system. The purpose of the open skies agreement was a free but fair competition and assuring stable airline jobs. What we now get, if this continues, is lower salaries, more hours and furloughs among legacy airlines. Norwegian is welcome to compete, but on a level playing field.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 23:15
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The easiest way to compete is to be more competitive and cost is but one element of that, Norwegian have grown in Europe rapidly, not by being another ryanair or easyJet, but rather by not being another ryanair or easyJet, they bring something new something fresh to the market place, if you don't know what it is then you haven't flown with them! If you have then you'll understand why they have won award after award from customer groups. Longhaul has got off to an iffy start due in no small part to the dream liner issues, but when it works as it should then the customer satisfaction has been excellent.

The Thai crew issue is a red herring, all these American unions people will be sat there with their Chinese's made iPad's and Korean chinos, with their Lexus cars parked at the airport drinking German beer and French wine, moaning about made in America, Norwegian meanwhile are spending billions on American aircraft and bring new customers to the USA spending $150 a day minimum with an average stay of 10 days

I thought the Luddites died out years ago, there will be no sympathy from Joe Public for people earning €130'000 year flying these ships.

A non story move on guys.........
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 10:25
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It's understandable that LNIDA, employee of Norwegian, attempts to defend the airline. It's like passengers who only care about cheap, cheap tickets. The welfare of the employees is not important, no understanding of aviation safety and believing that pilots are overpaid.

And it's funny how they try to distance themself from Ryanair. Infact, Kjoss is a copy of O'Leary, with the same behavior and ideas. Both are talking about a new world order in the air, where most western airlines will vanish.

Employees of Norwegian are hired on contracts, through external companies. As long as the employee has the minimum requirement, i.e. certificates etc, then they are qualified. Screening of yesterdays are out the window. Should something happend, than they have no responsibilities. Seen this already in the media. Always someone elses fault. And they claim the race to the bottom is safe?! I have heard so many stories, also from their own pilots... No smoke without fire!

Pilot unions and safety organizations from both Europe and USA are now educating the regulators in each country. Even pilots from the biggest low cost airline in the world, Southwest Airlines, are in Oslo now.

Norwegian Air scheme is a virus, and must be stopped!
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 12:01
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empati

I don't recognise what you describe to be what I know within Norwegian.

I have nothing to defend???

Screening is thorough, ditto the training, far more than you would get before been released on line with a good number of very well known British Airlines, 95% of new pilots are already type rated, very many from Ryanair, ex bmibaby and standards are high, as they need to be operating into Scandinavian winters.

As to " I have heard so many stories, also from their own pilots... No smoke without fire!" if you believe that, then have the ball's to say it, rather than hide behind innuendo

I just don't see this race to the bottom?? crew meals, sick pay, paid holidays, paid standby,company hotel accommodation, free positioning for commuting pilots, no training bond, a months notice, no deductions for sim renewal fee's Ho and €106'000.00 basic + €12000.00 flight duty pay based on 700 hours €118'000.00 and the chance to work and live in some very nice parts of Europe

So did they reject you? what your beef? a virus your having a laugh, grow up

Norwegian Voted best low cost airline in Europe by Skytrax 2013
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 13:06
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lnida

When you outsource the hiring, you set minimum requirements, but the employee is hired by the contract company practices. You get what get.

Rumors are rumors, so I will not dig deeper than already done. But no smoke without fire.

If you could read Scandinavian newspapers the last 10 years, then you would know what race to the bottom means. Average pilot salaries in scandiland is a fraction of what it was. And Kjoss fight with NAS union has been ugly.

And don't worry about me. I got over 20 years in my present airline and do not need to apply to Norwegian. I do not blame the pilots at Norwegian, they like the rest of us just want a job. It is the Norwegian business scheme that is the problem for western pilot unions.

Btw, skytrax also awarded Qatar Airways. Everybody knows what kind of working conditions exist down there. And yes, you could again say the salary is good, tax free etc. Does not help!
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 18:40
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I just don't see this race to the bottom?? crew meals, sick pay, paid holidays, paid standby,company hotel accommodation, free positioning for commuting pilots, no training bond, a months notice, no deductions for sim renewal fee's Ho and €106'000.00 basic + €12000.00 flight duty pay based on 700 hours €118'000.00 and the chance to work and live in some very nice parts of Europe
Just converted that to sterling via google ex rates today. £97k.

Take off your own pension contributions, accountants fees, ex rate costs, local social taxes and cost of accommodation at your allocated base. It doesn't make it a salary to shout about. Especially if you are based on the opposite side of the continent to friends and family.

As interest rates go up in the UK over the next few years, the ex rate with the Euro will drop too. Your €118 will not look too pretty in a UK bank account.

"Fly a brand new NG as a contractor and get well paid". Where have we heard that before?
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 20:25
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They are a fantastic company to be in. Enjoying every minute of it! Customer service and general passenger experience is really going to take some beating.

It's a very pleasant place to be.

Last edited by go around flaps15; 5th Feb 2014 at 20:36.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 01:19
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empati

You are interviewed and selected by Norwegian, not the agency, you are allocated to an agency who look after the HR side of your employment, everything else is through Norwegian, you are not self employed, you are employed by the agency, its that simple.

Artie Fukin

If you live in euro land there are no exchange rate costs and social insurance is deducted at source ditto tax, what accountant fee's??? there are only a small % of british pilots and quite a few of them have had enough of the UK weather, UK airport staff security, traffic, surveillance society to last a life time and moved to warmer shores

No airline is perfect, but go down your local pub and ask how many are on a £100K doing a job they enjoy, more importantly as go around says its a nice place to be and a f**k sight better than a lot of other airlines right now.

I have said it before & i'll say it again, they " treat you like adults and ask only that you behave as such" so if you've got twenty years with your airline greatthen mind your own bloody business and take your Bob Crow pal's back to Jurassic park

This below from empati back in 2007
No offense intended! Just illustrating my frustation at this industry. Airline management is not really pulling towards flight safety, even though they like to state so in the media. We, the pilots, are the only group with true interest in (the expensive and crew demanding) flight safety.

Yes, take that first job! But don't stop applying other places. Hopefully those airlines with the worst working conditions will have such high turnaround of pilots, increasing cost, that they will have to improve their contracts.

By the way, Norwegian Air Shuttle hire very low timers (300 hours) even though their requirement is high. So keep at it.

Last edited by LNIDA; 6th Feb 2014 at 01:32.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 07:39
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LNIDA
This thread is not about bashing Norwegian as a airline or its pilots. It is about the Norwegian business scheme that promotes further deterioration of this profession.
Based on your language, you seem to be of a younger generation then I. Aviation has changed a lot since the 80's and 90's. Back then airlines spent almost unlimited amount of money on crew training. These days, it's cut down to minimum. All this in the name of cutting cost. Just study what happend recently between ECA and EASA on our FTL. Low cost airlines stakeholders are running the show. The price tag, not safety.
In the USA the regional carriers and low cost carriers are loosing a great number of pilots to the majors. Airlines have to close down service to some towns, due to lack of pilots. Jetblue CEO came out and said they now have to raise pilot salaries to keep pilots. In Scandiland SAS has recently picked up pilots from both Norwegian and Ryanair. Things are changing.
Yesterday, pilots from Delta, United, American, Southwest, KLM, LH, SAS ++ and European Cockpit Association had press conferences in Oslo. This is just the beginning of this cooperation. It's time to stop this virus, before it destroys this profession.
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 07:44
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Pilots confronting Norwegian Air International’s rights’ avoidance scheme
5 February 2014 - 4:10pm
Social dumping, forum shopping and operating under a “flag of convenience” are core elements of the new ‘business model’ with which Norwegian Air International (NAI) – a subsidiary of the low-cost Norwegian Air Shuttle – is trying to aggressively enter the long-haul aviation market. Pilot leaders from across the globe are meeting in Oslo to discuss the local, safety and employment implications of this ‘model’ and to plead for fair competition and a healthy European aviation industry.

“Pilots with Singaporean contracts, based in Bangkok (Thailand) flying for an Irish company with long-haul routes across the Atlantic, branding itself as being “Norwegian” – is that the new ‘European model’ that Norwegian Air International is trying to establish?,” asks Nico Voorbach, President of the European Cockpit Association. “We welcome any new player, which creates jobs and prosperity for the industry. But for us, European pilots, this is an opaque setup which corrupts the European idea of an open market, embedded in Europe’s social model, and spirit of fair competition. The proposed setup of NAI is designed so as to tilt the playing field in its favour with respect to other transatlantic carriers. The one thing we do agree upon with NAI is that their model is indeed “innovative” – in the sense that it offers creative ways to circumvent European and national regulations and disregard fundamental labour rights.”

During the two days’ meetings with stakeholders, US and Norwegian authorities in Oslo, ECA also expressed concerns about the lack of clarity over which social and safety legislation will apply and what social protection pilots would effectively receive. While being formally based in Thailand and with the majority most likely continuing to live in Europe, it is unclear which aviation authority will exercise safety oversight, how exactly and whether such oversight will have any impact. As NAI’s principal place of business is Dublin, at least on paper (as no flights are planned from Ireland), the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) is responsible for the proper application of Community and national legislation. In case the IAA grants a permanent Air Operator Certificate, which NAI has applied for, it is questionable whether such oversight will have any impact with crews based outside the EU and never touching Ireland in reality.

“Ireland risks going down the route of becoming the world’s flag of convenience for certain airlines,” says Philip von Schöppenthau, ECA Secretary General. “With its ‘light touch’ regulations and tax haven reputation, the country has much to offer to companies which are keen to bypass many of the regulatory, tax and social obligations that airlines in other European countries comply with. NAI’s anti-competitive and socially harmful forum shopping is an issue the EU Commission must address immediately. So far we have only heard radio silence in Brussels.”

NAI currently operates with a temporary AOC issued in Norway and awaits the decision of the Irish Aviation Authority for a permanent Irish permit to allow it to fly to the US. The company has also applied to the US Department of Transportation for a foreign air carrier permit. The deliberately complex structure will allow the airline to exploit legal and regulatory loopholes and gain an unfair competitive advantage. Together with the US pilots’ association – ALPA International – ECA is awaiting the decision of the US and Irish authorities, and is calling for a fair and healthy airline industry, which respects fundamental social and labour laws, and guarantees an effective safety oversight.

For more information about Norwegian Air International’s operations, including its complex structure, please contact ECA at [email protected]
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 11:36
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Important meetings held in Oslo by US and EU pilot unions

Amazing how a lot of people all of a sudden care now it has the potential to affect their contracts. But all these years of smaller companies exploiting pilots not a peep from from the big unions. Funny that is.....
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 12:00
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DutchExpat

You are right! We have not been organized or communicating well enough. Like the rest of E.U.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 09:29
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Norwegian Longhaul

The NYT says today -

"Flying doesn’t come cheaply these days, particularly on long-haul flights across the Atlantic.

But Norwegian Air Shuttle, which specializes in low-cost flights within Europe, plans to bring its pared-down model to the United States and Asia.

Its strategy, however, comes with a few twists: Norwegian is moving its long-haul operations from Norway to Ireland, basing some of its pilots and crew in Bangkok, hiring flight attendants in the United States, and flying the most advanced jetliner in service — the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. In the process, it has infuriated established carriers and pilots."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/bu..._20140207&_r=0
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