Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?
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The aviation industry isn't a disgrace. Travel outside Europe to a clothes factory where workers get paid 1p a day and work 364 days a year if you want a disgrace.
Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.
But it's also very hard on your life. If you want the good, you'll need to take the bad as well. This is the only question you should ask yourself if you're considering whether or not to become a commercial pilot.
Ego plays a big part in this (and there's nothing wrong with a bit of ego). Everyone here loves to fly. We dreamt about it when we were kids. But why 'Airline Pilot' specifically?
- So we can impress the chicks/guys at the bar
- So we can impress our old school buddies at the reunion
- So we have something to talk about at parties
Otherwise, why not just become an aerial photographer or such like? Does size really matter to you that much?
If you want to be an airline pilot then become an airline pilot, but do it for truthful reasons. It won't make you a fortune - come on, you don't even need a degree or any business or professional experience to become one. We don't even need to be that intelligent - and I mean that in the kindest possible way.
I love this industry and I love the people who work in it. But I have, and still do work in other industries (where I make my money). And comparatively, despite being very capable and hardworking fantastic people, pilots are in general quite thick (I speak from personal experience and again say this in the nicest possible way!)
There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc, so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills. The requirement you get is to work harder than you ever thought you would, cope with extreme pressure and worry, and try to survive in a turbulent industry where the companies' priorities are brand image and shareholder loyalty. So why should you earn more than a metro driver who carries 2000 passengers on their train on their own without a 'co-driver'? Justify it if you want it.
But overcome your ego and fly for the truthful reasons that you want to fly - then you will love your career!
Finally, my 'pprune disclaimer'. What I say or think doesn't matter. What you say or think doesn't matter. But our jobs and our industry is meaningful. So don't get rude or foul mouthed (and possibly fall into a catergory I mentioned above) if you want to challenge my comments or engage in a debate about this. Be intelligent. Be professional. Don't let us down.
I respect you all.
Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.
But it's also very hard on your life. If you want the good, you'll need to take the bad as well. This is the only question you should ask yourself if you're considering whether or not to become a commercial pilot.
Ego plays a big part in this (and there's nothing wrong with a bit of ego). Everyone here loves to fly. We dreamt about it when we were kids. But why 'Airline Pilot' specifically?
- So we can impress the chicks/guys at the bar
- So we can impress our old school buddies at the reunion
- So we have something to talk about at parties
Otherwise, why not just become an aerial photographer or such like? Does size really matter to you that much?
If you want to be an airline pilot then become an airline pilot, but do it for truthful reasons. It won't make you a fortune - come on, you don't even need a degree or any business or professional experience to become one. We don't even need to be that intelligent - and I mean that in the kindest possible way.
I love this industry and I love the people who work in it. But I have, and still do work in other industries (where I make my money). And comparatively, despite being very capable and hardworking fantastic people, pilots are in general quite thick (I speak from personal experience and again say this in the nicest possible way!)
There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc, so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills. The requirement you get is to work harder than you ever thought you would, cope with extreme pressure and worry, and try to survive in a turbulent industry where the companies' priorities are brand image and shareholder loyalty. So why should you earn more than a metro driver who carries 2000 passengers on their train on their own without a 'co-driver'? Justify it if you want it.
But overcome your ego and fly for the truthful reasons that you want to fly - then you will love your career!
Finally, my 'pprune disclaimer'. What I say or think doesn't matter. What you say or think doesn't matter. But our jobs and our industry is meaningful. So don't get rude or foul mouthed (and possibly fall into a catergory I mentioned above) if you want to challenge my comments or engage in a debate about this. Be intelligent. Be professional. Don't let us down.
I respect you all.
Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.
There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,
so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills.
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talktomegoose:
First I don't feel the word disgrace is misplaced, starting to compare with such situations as you do, probably deserves an even stronger word than disgrace to be honest.
"Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting." I am nearly tempted to ask you if you are 10 years old? Or are you living in a bubble made of jelly and ice cream!
I think you been watching a bit to much Top Gun, to impress chicks/guys, old school buddies or have something to talk about at parties?
Well first you will have no time for old school buddies, and to tired to see chicks, and never be available when there is a party!
I can assure you, I did not become an airline pilot for any of those reasons! Sure some do, but seriously!!!
It's true you don't need a degree, but your ATPL is the equivalent of an undergraduate degree, if you decide to study for a Master within aviation, so you are talking some kind of nonsense here.
Few things first, the basic training you have with CPL & MEIR - does not make you a qualified and competent airline pilot.
I recall I was very proud when I passed my CPL and IR, but this was only the licence to be allowed to apply - the step up from that level to the airlines is massive and much hard work. Looking back, I can see how little I knew when I was newly qualified, however trough good training, and some great people I got to know, they helped me get to the level that was required.
People are talking about that the airlines expect to be making the most possible money on us, and returning as little as possible to us.
However if I have made an invest of Ģ100.000 in myself, I do expect to get something back for my investment.
This amount, is fairly close to what most will spend on training from 0 until they are in an airline job.
I am not proclaiming I was any better than other newbies looking for a way in to this business. What I can say today, is that the investment so large, is very questionable, compared to what you will be getting in return.
What people like you Goose, have to understand, your training does not stop after CPL / IR, or after TR, or after line training, or after OPC, or after line check, or after you get 500 hours, to get an ATPL you will need to get to 1500 hours, and quite a few checks on the way, where you need to keep improving your skills and knowledge, if you even remotely one day are going to be considered for Captain upgrade.
So to belittle the profession in the way you do, is insulting for the pilot doing this job, and is a part of the problem, this attitude, to many are lacking respect for their own profession and maybe are in it for the wrong reasons.
That you say you have to work with something else to survive, is a major part of the problem, pilots today can not survive on the conditions they are being offered, and it will take another Colgan in EASA land before somebody might start to wake up, this industry only changes with the price of blood, that is the unfortunate truth.
Increase flight time limitations, there will have to be an accident where they can see the new FTL is dangerous before they do anything.
I have seen experienced Captains make mistakes, so that they are all always safe is not correct, that's the reason we have multi-crew cockpits.
Why should I earn more than the metro driver? Because he has not invested a Ģ100.000 in his business idea and own training - it does not make business sense, seems to be you are one of those you are talking about, lacking "requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,"
Also the metro driver does not constantly need to be tested several times a year. In 1994 I had a job as HGV long haul truck driver, I made more in a month back in 1994, than today as an airline pilot.
If you do end in a commuting situation, you will discover that most pilots hate that life, I have never met one who said he loved commuting half the world to go to job, you would also discover many saying if they had something else they could do, they would leave aviation.
After reaching TOC, and sitting for the next 4 hours staring at the sun or the moon, with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach, I am sorry, I quickly loose the love of flying.
Of course in between you have some that are great, and the day goes faster, yet doing it for peanuts is not going to cut it for me.
Life is more than a fast jet to be happy! And I know that - it does not help that I have all the money in the world, if I can not have free time to go where I want and relax with my family.
If you have children, you can not take them out of school when you want, this will in the UK in some places cost you Ģ150 a day. School holidays are always peak season in aviation, so you can not take holidays when your children have holidays.
If not commuting, less of a problem, as you would be more home.
They will always be my number one choice, ahead of any airlines requirement of me.
But let's get it clear, not all is even about money, it's having enough time so that you can also have a life outside the cockpit.
First I don't feel the word disgrace is misplaced, starting to compare with such situations as you do, probably deserves an even stronger word than disgrace to be honest.
"Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting." I am nearly tempted to ask you if you are 10 years old? Or are you living in a bubble made of jelly and ice cream!
I think you been watching a bit to much Top Gun, to impress chicks/guys, old school buddies or have something to talk about at parties?
Well first you will have no time for old school buddies, and to tired to see chicks, and never be available when there is a party!
I can assure you, I did not become an airline pilot for any of those reasons! Sure some do, but seriously!!!
It's true you don't need a degree, but your ATPL is the equivalent of an undergraduate degree, if you decide to study for a Master within aviation, so you are talking some kind of nonsense here.
Few things first, the basic training you have with CPL & MEIR - does not make you a qualified and competent airline pilot.
I recall I was very proud when I passed my CPL and IR, but this was only the licence to be allowed to apply - the step up from that level to the airlines is massive and much hard work. Looking back, I can see how little I knew when I was newly qualified, however trough good training, and some great people I got to know, they helped me get to the level that was required.
People are talking about that the airlines expect to be making the most possible money on us, and returning as little as possible to us.
However if I have made an invest of Ģ100.000 in myself, I do expect to get something back for my investment.
This amount, is fairly close to what most will spend on training from 0 until they are in an airline job.
I am not proclaiming I was any better than other newbies looking for a way in to this business. What I can say today, is that the investment so large, is very questionable, compared to what you will be getting in return.
What people like you Goose, have to understand, your training does not stop after CPL / IR, or after TR, or after line training, or after OPC, or after line check, or after you get 500 hours, to get an ATPL you will need to get to 1500 hours, and quite a few checks on the way, where you need to keep improving your skills and knowledge, if you even remotely one day are going to be considered for Captain upgrade.
So to belittle the profession in the way you do, is insulting for the pilot doing this job, and is a part of the problem, this attitude, to many are lacking respect for their own profession and maybe are in it for the wrong reasons.
That you say you have to work with something else to survive, is a major part of the problem, pilots today can not survive on the conditions they are being offered, and it will take another Colgan in EASA land before somebody might start to wake up, this industry only changes with the price of blood, that is the unfortunate truth.
Increase flight time limitations, there will have to be an accident where they can see the new FTL is dangerous before they do anything.
I have seen experienced Captains make mistakes, so that they are all always safe is not correct, that's the reason we have multi-crew cockpits.
Why should I earn more than the metro driver? Because he has not invested a Ģ100.000 in his business idea and own training - it does not make business sense, seems to be you are one of those you are talking about, lacking "requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,"
Also the metro driver does not constantly need to be tested several times a year. In 1994 I had a job as HGV long haul truck driver, I made more in a month back in 1994, than today as an airline pilot.
If you do end in a commuting situation, you will discover that most pilots hate that life, I have never met one who said he loved commuting half the world to go to job, you would also discover many saying if they had something else they could do, they would leave aviation.
After reaching TOC, and sitting for the next 4 hours staring at the sun or the moon, with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach, I am sorry, I quickly loose the love of flying.
Of course in between you have some that are great, and the day goes faster, yet doing it for peanuts is not going to cut it for me.
Life is more than a fast jet to be happy! And I know that - it does not help that I have all the money in the world, if I can not have free time to go where I want and relax with my family.
If you have children, you can not take them out of school when you want, this will in the UK in some places cost you Ģ150 a day. School holidays are always peak season in aviation, so you can not take holidays when your children have holidays.
If not commuting, less of a problem, as you would be more home.
They will always be my number one choice, ahead of any airlines requirement of me.
But let's get it clear, not all is even about money, it's having enough time so that you can also have a life outside the cockpit.
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And by the way, what is wrong about wanting to make money on your profession?
Why don't just all do it for a bag popcorn and a free movie ticket to watch Top Gun III ?
Regarding Ex-Mil guys, I don't agree there, I have flown with a few, and have never had much issues with them.
To be fair, most the people I have flown with have been fairly good, I am sure in every company you will have a few people that are less desirable to fly with.
Why don't just all do it for a bag popcorn and a free movie ticket to watch Top Gun III ?
Regarding Ex-Mil guys, I don't agree there, I have flown with a few, and have never had much issues with them.
To be fair, most the people I have flown with have been fairly good, I am sure in every company you will have a few people that are less desirable to fly with.
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The aviation industry will be a lot better off without the ex-military psychos thinking they are the rulers of the universe !!
Wow, what a broad brush you wield, must be heavy with that chip on your shoulder.
sigh...
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Perhaps because driving a train does not require years of expensive training and and the thing itself cannot really be influenced doing much except going faster or slower following the tracks as it moves with more or less unlimited resources?
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Pablo Diablo,
Plus, if the donk stops on a train or the power goes then the train can coast to a stop and the automated signalling stops other trains ploughing into it.
A luxury we, unfortunately, don't have.
Never happened on my flight deck, generally have a chat, usually have a laugh and help EACH OTHER at the critical parts of the flight. We ALL make mistakes, the important thing to learn is that the cockpit is NEVER a place to point score and spout the 'holier than thou' attitude as you are only ever as good as your last controlled crash! ;-)
Plus, if the donk stops on a train or the power goes then the train can coast to a stop and the automated signalling stops other trains ploughing into it.
A luxury we, unfortunately, don't have.
with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach,
Never happened on my flight deck, generally have a chat, usually have a laugh and help EACH OTHER at the critical parts of the flight. We ALL make mistakes, the important thing to learn is that the cockpit is NEVER a place to point score and spout the 'holier than thou' attitude as you are only ever as good as your last controlled crash! ;-)
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I have experienced this at both of the airlines I've worked for and I too know it has damaged my mindset to the point where I gained very little enjoyment from flying. Bad apples and pilots with their own opinions are to be found in all airlines but the problem is 10 x bigger in the developing world. At my last place, I was deliberately partnered to fly with the same Captains again and again because other FOs refused to fly with them. One crewing guy even admitted it.
The point here is there are two distinct groups of pilots. Those have flown in an environment in which senior and junior colleagues are respected as qualified individuals and therefore trusted to do the right job at the right time (Northern/Central Europe, North America, possibly Aus) and those who have flown within environments where due to cultural deficiencies a senior will distrust a junior no matter what or no matter how capable that junior is (ME, Africa, South Asia, Far East, Latin America). Those who have no concept of this are lucky to be working for airlines with that do not have this problem.
I've flown in Turkey and southern China where the problem is huge. No matter who is sitting on the right, a lot of the time the guy on the left is likely to be a jittery, untrusting, ego maniac. You might remind me to man up and deal with it but it's no easy task adjusting to each dictator and following he's "way" only for the next guy to rubbish it and force you to do it his "way". Such an environment isn't good for your health or your career. The truth is there are a million ways to skin the cat as far as conducting a good approach goes and it's never the LIPs or TRIs/TREs that have the problem but the training captain wannabes (who funnily enough criticise the trainers). Unfortunately it's my belief that in certain airlines, these type of captains make up the majority and often you can tell how comfortable the cockpit environment will be just by looking at the name and nationality of your Captain.
The point here is there are two distinct groups of pilots. Those have flown in an environment in which senior and junior colleagues are respected as qualified individuals and therefore trusted to do the right job at the right time (Northern/Central Europe, North America, possibly Aus) and those who have flown within environments where due to cultural deficiencies a senior will distrust a junior no matter what or no matter how capable that junior is (ME, Africa, South Asia, Far East, Latin America). Those who have no concept of this are lucky to be working for airlines with that do not have this problem.
I've flown in Turkey and southern China where the problem is huge. No matter who is sitting on the right, a lot of the time the guy on the left is likely to be a jittery, untrusting, ego maniac. You might remind me to man up and deal with it but it's no easy task adjusting to each dictator and following he's "way" only for the next guy to rubbish it and force you to do it his "way". Such an environment isn't good for your health or your career. The truth is there are a million ways to skin the cat as far as conducting a good approach goes and it's never the LIPs or TRIs/TREs that have the problem but the training captain wannabes (who funnily enough criticise the trainers). Unfortunately it's my belief that in certain airlines, these type of captains make up the majority and often you can tell how comfortable the cockpit environment will be just by looking at the name and nationality of your Captain.
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Superpilot - What you say is very true. It can create a great displeasure to fly with these kind of RHS.
Unfortunately the nationality does have an impact, as I have experienced myself.
I must have my own little black box, where info is about who to deal with this specific Captain.
However I have tried to use ever flight, even these flights as something valuable for me, how I do not want to be as a captain. By the way, also within Europe these cultural differences to exist within some, and the experience can be like day and night depending on their age.
It can get a bit tedious, having to be flexible enough to adapt around every variation of Captains around in a company.
And after a while, and repeated conversations, it just gets to tiring to keep trying to change their ways.
And when constantly getting above average reports on sim checks and line checks, it just wears you down.
The main thing is to stay awake, to make sure they don't
Up. Which in one year, I have seen 3 of these characters do.
Unfortunately the nationality does have an impact, as I have experienced myself.
I must have my own little black box, where info is about who to deal with this specific Captain.
However I have tried to use ever flight, even these flights as something valuable for me, how I do not want to be as a captain. By the way, also within Europe these cultural differences to exist within some, and the experience can be like day and night depending on their age.
It can get a bit tedious, having to be flexible enough to adapt around every variation of Captains around in a company.
And after a while, and repeated conversations, it just gets to tiring to keep trying to change their ways.
And when constantly getting above average reports on sim checks and line checks, it just wears you down.
The main thing is to stay awake, to make sure they don't
Up. Which in one year, I have seen 3 of these characters do.
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My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.
It's as naive as saying "become a pilot, travel the world in 5* hotels, shag loads of beautiful hosties, all whilst earning a fortune".
Hear, hear, Artie.
I have loads of Uni mates who went into the City. They earn double my pittance but I'd wager I work fewer hours and have more fun. Working in the City is not 'fun'. None of my friends ever discuss their jobs out of work. They all want to know about flying. I also live in a far nicer house with half the mortgage of my friends because I don't pay City prices. Oh, and I get far more quality time with my child (temporarily, due to my current basing).
I can only presume talktomegoose has been watching too much Top Gun (great movie
) or working at professional recruitment fairs! There is a place in the profession for that kind of enthusiasm and, yes, there are the odd occasion where there is a perceived glamour. However, that is on the decline due to the deteriorating terms and conditions under which we serve our time. To suggest we all sign on the dotted line to seek such superficial rewards is nonsense.
By the way, I did as much actual study for the ATPL as I did for my two degrees, each of which were pretty undemanding despite being a a red brick Uni in very well regarded academic subjects. So, don't assume a degree is difficult: any idiot can get one from any number of the plethora of universities. Many people who get degrees would struggle with the ATPL let alone the basic flying, IR or TR. Yet ironically, in my opinion it's the dumbing down of the ATPL (multiple choice questions do not require you to understand the subject matter) that has made it too easy to become a commercial pilot.
Truckflyer and Superpilot
We've all experienced the cultural differences. Paradoxically it's one of the things I love about flying. I've met people from so many different backgrounds and nationalities in my airline. There are stereotypes and some days you have to bite your tongue or resist saying "Your controls" because they might as well fly the plane...but I must add that I have also flown with people from certain countries where issues are said to exist with CRM or attitudes to SOPs who have been inspirational pilots. Ironically, my least favourite pilots are just as often those from my own culture as from abroad.
I have loads of Uni mates who went into the City. They earn double my pittance but I'd wager I work fewer hours and have more fun. Working in the City is not 'fun'. None of my friends ever discuss their jobs out of work. They all want to know about flying. I also live in a far nicer house with half the mortgage of my friends because I don't pay City prices. Oh, and I get far more quality time with my child (temporarily, due to my current basing).
I can only presume talktomegoose has been watching too much Top Gun (great movie
) or working at professional recruitment fairs! There is a place in the profession for that kind of enthusiasm and, yes, there are the odd occasion where there is a perceived glamour. However, that is on the decline due to the deteriorating terms and conditions under which we serve our time. To suggest we all sign on the dotted line to seek such superficial rewards is nonsense.By the way, I did as much actual study for the ATPL as I did for my two degrees, each of which were pretty undemanding despite being a a red brick Uni in very well regarded academic subjects. So, don't assume a degree is difficult: any idiot can get one from any number of the plethora of universities. Many people who get degrees would struggle with the ATPL let alone the basic flying, IR or TR. Yet ironically, in my opinion it's the dumbing down of the ATPL (multiple choice questions do not require you to understand the subject matter) that has made it too easy to become a commercial pilot.
Truckflyer and Superpilot
We've all experienced the cultural differences. Paradoxically it's one of the things I love about flying. I've met people from so many different backgrounds and nationalities in my airline. There are stereotypes and some days you have to bite your tongue or resist saying "Your controls" because they might as well fly the plane...but I must add that I have also flown with people from certain countries where issues are said to exist with CRM or attitudes to SOPs who have been inspirational pilots. Ironically, my least favourite pilots are just as often those from my own culture as from abroad.
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Mikehotel152 - about cultural differences, can't disagree on that, my 2 best instructors was from Poland and Jamaica.
However I have stopped listen to what other peoples experience is with a captain, so many times have I found other people complaining, and when I have a flight or check the guy is great.
It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you get until you try one.
However I have stopped listen to what other peoples experience is with a captain, so many times have I found other people complaining, and when I have a flight or check the guy is great.
It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you get until you try one.
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Exactly, no pulse in any way when the train goes dark... Just a "ohh" and thatīs it - late for the meeting...
Actually if we use that scenario of yours a bit further then we could attempt to put an end to all future comparisons between buses, airplanes and trains except they all carry people from A to B.
Itīs worth a shot.
If we would be able measuring the pulse of people traveling in different types of transport for example buses, trains and airplanes before and after we would ensure "everything goes completely dark" then without being overly optimistic we would possibly see a increase in the pulse and also increases in the pulse depending on the type of transport the person is in. As a result of that we would be able to conclude there are indeed more differences between buses, trains and airplanes than what initially appears to be the case.
Love trains. Quiet, no seatbelt signs, full carry on electronics without restrictions, no nasty booking experiences, more space, no issues with baggage, more of everything. Arriving 20 minutes before departure of course not problem.
Pleasant, exotic, every once in a while.
Actually if we use that scenario of yours a bit further then we could attempt to put an end to all future comparisons between buses, airplanes and trains except they all carry people from A to B.
Itīs worth a shot.
If we would be able measuring the pulse of people traveling in different types of transport for example buses, trains and airplanes before and after we would ensure "everything goes completely dark" then without being overly optimistic we would possibly see a increase in the pulse and also increases in the pulse depending on the type of transport the person is in. As a result of that we would be able to conclude there are indeed more differences between buses, trains and airplanes than what initially appears to be the case.
Love trains. Quiet, no seatbelt signs, full carry on electronics without restrictions, no nasty booking experiences, more space, no issues with baggage, more of everything. Arriving 20 minutes before departure of course not problem.
Pleasant, exotic, every once in a while.
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Truckflyer: How much money/ time off etc do you want out of interest? I mean that genuinely; in your opinion what would be a fair package commensurate with your training, investment and current skill level?
I happen to agree with much of what Goose had to say. Maybe airline pilot isn't always the job for a flying enthusiast. There are lots of flying jobs which don't have hours spent in the cruise monitoring automatics etc. I don't think he was being deluded, just honest about enjoying flying and happy to take the rough with the smooth.
As far as I can tell your point is that you don't like your job much and feel like you, and your profession, are undervalued. This thread has shown that clearly opinions vary. Maybe it's time to cut your losses and start looking for something new that you will enjoy.
As it stands though, I think you've made your point.
Cheers
I happen to agree with much of what Goose had to say. Maybe airline pilot isn't always the job for a flying enthusiast. There are lots of flying jobs which don't have hours spent in the cruise monitoring automatics etc. I don't think he was being deluded, just honest about enjoying flying and happy to take the rough with the smooth.
As far as I can tell your point is that you don't like your job much and feel like you, and your profession, are undervalued. This thread has shown that clearly opinions vary. Maybe it's time to cut your losses and start looking for something new that you will enjoy.
As it stands though, I think you've made your point.
Cheers
Last edited by dread pirate roberts; 15th Jan 2014 at 21:54. Reason: grammar
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Surprised ? This was coming and it was possible to see it coming long time ago. When the guy on your right is treated like an animal , it is just a matter of time before they will treat you like them whenever they will able to. Once they have broken their will , they will move to the next level and next group. Now it is time of Captains.
Tomorrow they will replace F/O with computers and finally they will place computers on any aircrafts.
They don't complain, cost less, don't have human needs and you can bit them whenever they don't cooperate.
Perfect system for O'leary!
Tomorrow they will replace F/O with computers and finally they will place computers on any aircrafts.
They don't complain, cost less, don't have human needs and you can bit them whenever they don't cooperate.
Perfect system for O'leary!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
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Considering the rates that some agencies are tossing about it has sunk so low that I'd send anyone to the 'white coat people' if they ever mentioned the 'dream'. You have to pass all the physco-babble exams and interviews these days to see if you are sane enough and of good character to be a pilot. You'd have to be mad to contemplate it in this climate.
A jet captain for 5500pm gross with accommodation thrown in, based in an expensive EU capital. Self-employed contractor status for 6 months. It's an insult AND a disgrace.
A jet captain for 5500pm gross with accommodation thrown in, based in an expensive EU capital. Self-employed contractor status for 6 months. It's an insult AND a disgrace.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Europe
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Indeed, would be interesting to know how much in general agencies get for each pilot. Maybe it is completely up to them to advertise the salary for a given position. The end result is crap saying the least for pilots, you donīt work for an airline even if you are a pilot and all kinds of people want their cut from the salary of the pilot. In any industry it is always best to buy something directly from the producer to avoid a higher price, in this case it is the same but the opposite. For the airline it is the same except this way they do not need to worry about taking any kind of responsibility for staff since they donīt employ them.
Big business labor nowadays.
Big business labor nowadays.
