easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike
What is the view of BALPA and the company Reps with regard to its members being asked to fly the aircraft normally operated by the lisbon based Pilots?
UK pilots have to take empty UK based aircraft and operate them in Lisbon. If they are contractually obliged to do so and they refuse, they can be dismissed. Meanwhile the striking pilots are protected by their local laws.
There is more to this, of course, but that has been communicated to the UK pilots directly by BALPA.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, so I understand the Captains in Lisbon accepted a lower cost command, and now they are striking to bring their contract back to the company standard. The Pilots in the UK are saying "well you accepted the command with the lower remuneration therefore you should live by the sword and die by the sword".
Wonderful! now the company has achieved exactly what it wants, it has successfully "divided and conquered", that now opens the door to more and more out of seniority, lower cost bases.
I genuinely think that breaking your colleagues and friends strike in Lisbon will seriously backfire on all of you, you will all relinquish the only real power of collective bargaining which you have, Fools!!
Wonderful! now the company has achieved exactly what it wants, it has successfully "divided and conquered", that now opens the door to more and more out of seniority, lower cost bases.
I genuinely think that breaking your colleagues and friends strike in Lisbon will seriously backfire on all of you, you will all relinquish the only real power of collective bargaining which you have, Fools!!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: up north
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, if i understand this argument correctly, some legal strikers(protected by law)/strike supporters are suggesting that some non-strikers (not protected by law) should put themselves in a position of refusing a legitimate instruction (in law) by the company, which has the sanction of dismissal (in law). At some stage the strike ends with victory or otherwise. Some pilots (protected by law) go back to work, while the non-strikers don't go back to work, because they have been legally sacked. Seems like a reasonable request to the non-strikers from the strikers (not) ?
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I have said previously, any Pilot who travels from the UK to operate aircraft out of Lisbon which are normally operated by Lisbon based Pilots in a direct effort to break the strike of their colleagues should be considered as Beneath contempt.
It is clear that there is no such thing as CRM or teamwork in Easy...
It is clear that there is no such thing as CRM or teamwork in Easy...
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: care home for redundant has beens
Age: 57
Posts: 237
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You don't get it do you Kung Fu, no one wants to go from the UK, but if they refuse the company order to go, they will be fired simples. The UK union cannot intervene as secondary industrial action is illegal under UK law.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 64
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
kung fu panda wrote:
Kung fu - thought I'd copy this because when you read it and realise what a complete prat you are, you'll want to delete this most ill-informed post!
As I have said previously, any Pilot who travels from the UK to operate aircraft out of Lisbon which are normally operated by Lisbon based Pilots in a direct effort to break the strike of their colleagues should be considered as Beneath contempt.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Refusal to accept reality/ failure to react to changing parameters/mindset . . . . call it what you will, but it has been a factor I believe in several approach phase accidents in recent years, not to mention AF over the pond.
If I believe hard enough all is well it will be, I don't have to react to changed circumstances & the fact it isn't well.
kungfu panda , I hope the stubborn refusal to accept reality you display here, is not a trait you take with you when you go to work.
If I believe hard enough all is well it will be, I don't have to react to changed circumstances & the fact it isn't well.
kungfu panda , I hope the stubborn refusal to accept reality you display here, is not a trait you take with you when you go to work.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good afternoon Captplay......
I will not change mindset but maybe a change of tone is required.
My view is that in the UK during the 60's and 70's the Unions had too much power, they had control of the Labour party and almost bankrupted the country. Only an IMF bailout prevented that from happening. The Thatcher government stood up to the Unions and defeated them, they changed Laws crippling their power. This was attempt re-dress the balance that had gone to an extreme. Unfortunately in an effort to re-dress the balance we have now gone to the other extreme where employees in the UK have very little power to collectively bargain.
Unfortunately unscrupulous Managements are using this extreme of power which they have obtained in the UK (and Ireland) to dictate terms to employees throughout the EU. This has to be considered unacceptable and the full support of all Pilots should go to those prepared to stand up to these people. Currently those Pilots are the Easyjet Lisbon based crews.
I will not change mindset but maybe a change of tone is required.
My view is that in the UK during the 60's and 70's the Unions had too much power, they had control of the Labour party and almost bankrupted the country. Only an IMF bailout prevented that from happening. The Thatcher government stood up to the Unions and defeated them, they changed Laws crippling their power. This was attempt re-dress the balance that had gone to an extreme. Unfortunately in an effort to re-dress the balance we have now gone to the other extreme where employees in the UK have very little power to collectively bargain.
Unfortunately unscrupulous Managements are using this extreme of power which they have obtained in the UK (and Ireland) to dictate terms to employees throughout the EU. This has to be considered unacceptable and the full support of all Pilots should go to those prepared to stand up to these people. Currently those Pilots are the Easyjet Lisbon based crews.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am 100% in agreement with your summary, and conclusion.
Regretably "the full support" of the UK pilots is completely neutered by that same legislation you (we ) are against.
That ,unfortunately, is the fact of the matter, and it is difficult, nay impossible, for a UK employee to contribute much "meaningful" support.
Regretably "the full support" of the UK pilots is completely neutered by that same legislation you (we ) are against.
That ,unfortunately, is the fact of the matter, and it is difficult, nay impossible, for a UK employee to contribute much "meaningful" support.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frustratingly you maybe right.
I am not sure if refusal to travel from your factory in the UK to operate equipment in a factory in Portugal would be considered secondary action?
I am not sure if refusal to travel from your factory in the UK to operate equipment in a factory in Portugal would be considered secondary action?
kungfu panda - I don't think you understand the setup with easyJet. There is easyJet and easySwizz. At present we operate different nationally registered a/c under different AOC's; we cannot fly each others a/c and we cannot operate together. We have different contracts. However we would refer to ourselves as colleagues.
Within easyJet we operate UK registered a/c from a number of different EU countries. We all fly the same a/c, we train together and we can fly together, however we have different contracts (different pay, leave, days off, pensions etc). We are all free to request base transfers and when we move we go onto the local contract irrespective of our nationality. When FO's come up for their command the base on offer may not be the same depending on the vacancy; it is up to them to accept the command and move or remain as an FO at their base of choice. Some bases are considered to have superior T&C; untimately it is the whole package (permanent contract, command, location) and so the decision is very subjective. easyJet would prefer to promote from within so when LIS was started those FO's coming up for command were offerred the command in LIS or to remain as FO's at their base until the next command vacancies arose. The local contracts on offer were lower than all the other contracts (a point well discussed on other topics on this forum). Some FO's chose not to accept the promotion and wait for the command at whatever base came up next, normally LGW, others chose the promotion at LIS; hence the view that some jumped the command list. As there were insufficient volunteers their were also direct entry fixed term contracts at LIS.
The base is now permanent so new/ammended contracts are being negotiated. Some of those commands want to transfer to other bases while the FO's who opted not to take the command may still be FO's; the fixed term contracts want a straight transition to permanent contracts without going though another interview, there may be other issues.
That brings us to where we are now. Whatever the situation in LIS as to the rights or wrongs of the pilots or company is not yet clearly understood by most of us on this forum. You are advocating we should support the strike of our colleagues in LIS purley because we are pilots, irrespetive of the law and our contracts or who is right or wrong. It has been clearly explained to you that we cannot refuse duties without jeopardising our positions. Some of us are uncomfortable at the prospect of operating whilst the LIS pilots are on strike and others are sympathetic but are objecting to the dates as it will interfer with their Christmas. So you see this is not as straightforward as you seem to think.
Within easyJet we operate UK registered a/c from a number of different EU countries. We all fly the same a/c, we train together and we can fly together, however we have different contracts (different pay, leave, days off, pensions etc). We are all free to request base transfers and when we move we go onto the local contract irrespective of our nationality. When FO's come up for their command the base on offer may not be the same depending on the vacancy; it is up to them to accept the command and move or remain as an FO at their base of choice. Some bases are considered to have superior T&C; untimately it is the whole package (permanent contract, command, location) and so the decision is very subjective. easyJet would prefer to promote from within so when LIS was started those FO's coming up for command were offerred the command in LIS or to remain as FO's at their base until the next command vacancies arose. The local contracts on offer were lower than all the other contracts (a point well discussed on other topics on this forum). Some FO's chose not to accept the promotion and wait for the command at whatever base came up next, normally LGW, others chose the promotion at LIS; hence the view that some jumped the command list. As there were insufficient volunteers their were also direct entry fixed term contracts at LIS.
The base is now permanent so new/ammended contracts are being negotiated. Some of those commands want to transfer to other bases while the FO's who opted not to take the command may still be FO's; the fixed term contracts want a straight transition to permanent contracts without going though another interview, there may be other issues.
That brings us to where we are now. Whatever the situation in LIS as to the rights or wrongs of the pilots or company is not yet clearly understood by most of us on this forum. You are advocating we should support the strike of our colleagues in LIS purley because we are pilots, irrespetive of the law and our contracts or who is right or wrong. It has been clearly explained to you that we cannot refuse duties without jeopardising our positions. Some of us are uncomfortable at the prospect of operating whilst the LIS pilots are on strike and others are sympathetic but are objecting to the dates as it will interfer with their Christmas. So you see this is not as straightforward as you seem to think.
kungfu panda - some of us in the UK are happy with the status quo we have now and we see the unions on the continent as having too much power. It is of note that most who are objecting to our lack of action in this matter are not UK based. Perhaps somewhere inbetween would be ideal but we are where we are today with what we can do.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The IMF.
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How would operating in LIS "interfere with Christmas"?
If you're on duty, your Christmas is not yours to have anyway.
If you're not on duty and decide to answer your phone, in order to work on days off, that is a different matter altogether.
In the latter example, you need to have really good reasons to break a strike, whilst working on days off over Christmas.
If you're on duty, your Christmas is not yours to have anyway.
If you're not on duty and decide to answer your phone, in order to work on days off, that is a different matter altogether.
In the latter example, you need to have really good reasons to break a strike, whilst working on days off over Christmas.
Narrow Runway - because your roster may have you working between 24 Dec and 26 Dec, that may be STBY or flights. easyJet operate very few flights throughout the network on Christmas Day . Historically, if you're UK based, you would more than likely be stood down from the Christmas Day STBY on 24th. With the strike dates being called on 24th and 26th there is a distinct possibility that some may spend their Christmas in LIS at short notice. Nothwithstanding any contingency plans the company may consider. Noone is talking about any easyJet crews volunteering to operate on days off.
I take your point that if you have a rostered duty, even if it be STBY on Christmas Day when there are no flights planned at your base, you still have a rostered duty and therefore Christmas Day is not your own. Nonetheless, particularly if you have young children it is going to be a significant disruption and disappointment to you and your family and this is the prospect many fear. The issue is that to be called to do a rescue flight is unfortunate but this is a deliberate choice of dates which some feel is poorly thoughtout and inappropriate as it may alienate your colleagues, others feel it will send the strongest signal to the company; the debate goes on.
I take your point that if you have a rostered duty, even if it be STBY on Christmas Day when there are no flights planned at your base, you still have a rostered duty and therefore Christmas Day is not your own. Nonetheless, particularly if you have young children it is going to be a significant disruption and disappointment to you and your family and this is the prospect many fear. The issue is that to be called to do a rescue flight is unfortunate but this is a deliberate choice of dates which some feel is poorly thoughtout and inappropriate as it may alienate your colleagues, others feel it will send the strongest signal to the company; the debate goes on.
No one is relishing this confrontation; not the company, not the LIS crews and not the crews called to operate.
One thing is for sure the company wont let the passengers suffer; one way or another the flights will operate.
The issues between the LIS crews and the company will be resolved. The bad feeling between crew called to operate over Christmas and the striking LIS crews will take a lot longer to mend. 'Divide and Rule' who's responsible this time!
One thing is for sure the company wont let the passengers suffer; one way or another the flights will operate.
The issues between the LIS crews and the company will be resolved. The bad feeling between crew called to operate over Christmas and the striking LIS crews will take a lot longer to mend. 'Divide and Rule' who's responsible this time!
In 1989 vitually all of the Australian pilots went on strike.
I was working for an airline with a strong Australian heritage in Europe.
I was, at the time, the Pilots' Representative.
I was rung up (on what used to be called a telephone) by the (Australian) boss at headquarters in UK. He wanted us to send six pilots to Australia to fly the Australian-registered aircraft and did I have any comments.
I said that I would not have any problem with them taking a couple of G-registered aircraft to Australia to work on a wet-lease. (wet-lease costs a lot of money and, historically, has hastened the return to the negotiating table by the employer). (In fact, Dan and Britannia sent a lot of aircraft and crews down there).
However, I was totally against six of our pilots going out to Australia to sit in the pilot's seat of an Australian-registered aeroplane.
I managed to dissuade the first six volunteers.
Really, all I had do was ask them how they would feel if a bunch of Australians turned up at the front gate to fly our aircraft.
However, I am ashamed to say that another six went out there and sat in Australian VH-registered seats.
I don't particularly like the scab word but this was as close as I can ever get to it.
So, let us get back to EZY LIS. Are the Lisbon aircraft CS-registered or G-registered?
That really is the crunch point. If they are all G-registered aircraft then the LIS crews cannot surely object to a UK-based crew flying the G-registered aircraft?
Likewise, the UK crew would be on very shaky grounds if they didn't get down there and do what they were rostered to do, however unpleasant the prospect may be.
I was working for an airline with a strong Australian heritage in Europe.
I was, at the time, the Pilots' Representative.
I was rung up (on what used to be called a telephone) by the (Australian) boss at headquarters in UK. He wanted us to send six pilots to Australia to fly the Australian-registered aircraft and did I have any comments.
I said that I would not have any problem with them taking a couple of G-registered aircraft to Australia to work on a wet-lease. (wet-lease costs a lot of money and, historically, has hastened the return to the negotiating table by the employer). (In fact, Dan and Britannia sent a lot of aircraft and crews down there).
However, I was totally against six of our pilots going out to Australia to sit in the pilot's seat of an Australian-registered aeroplane.
I managed to dissuade the first six volunteers.
Really, all I had do was ask them how they would feel if a bunch of Australians turned up at the front gate to fly our aircraft.
However, I am ashamed to say that another six went out there and sat in Australian VH-registered seats.
I don't particularly like the scab word but this was as close as I can ever get to it.
So, let us get back to EZY LIS. Are the Lisbon aircraft CS-registered or G-registered?
That really is the crunch point. If they are all G-registered aircraft then the LIS crews cannot surely object to a UK-based crew flying the G-registered aircraft?
Likewise, the UK crew would be on very shaky grounds if they didn't get down there and do what they were rostered to do, however unpleasant the prospect may be.
For the UK pilots, the law is as it is. No sympathy strikes, and no refusal to carry out a legitimate request.
However, some one implied this is Tory Law. it's not. It is Blair/Brown Labour's law.
However, some one implied this is Tory Law. it's not. It is Blair/Brown Labour's law.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JW411- Your first assertions were correct. It is irrelevant whether the aircraft are registered in Portugal or in the UK these days because the EU allows the use of flags of convenience. The Irish and UK register are popular. It will be devastating for the striking Pilots to see the Aircraft they normally fly being operated by BALPA guys.