Retirement Age and Crewing Requirements
Avoid imitations
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I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, 
you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it.
you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it.
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Let's not forget the older generation who think they deserve respect just by virtue of having gray hair. I mean, I got some of that, too.
I'm just saying let's discuss all generational deficiencies, not just some.
I'm just saying let's discuss all generational deficiencies, not just some.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert185
I like it! Although, there are those who deserve the above and those who don't.
Ike replies:
I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it. I can respect that. It's when fossils start breaking into sob stories on how that have to "make up for what they've lost" (while acquiring Corvette #7 and ex-wife #6) that I feel like I'm being played.
Originally Posted by Desert185
I like it! Although, there are those who deserve the above and those who don't.
Ike replies:
I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it. I can respect that. It's when fossils start breaking into sob stories on how that have to "make up for what they've lost" (while acquiring Corvette #7 and ex-wife #6) that I feel like I'm being played.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I occupied the right seat I generally was respectful and limited my negative judgments of the guy on the on the left. Not every captain was worthy, but acting respectful was something ingrained in me at an early age. Was I envious? No, I looked forward to the day when I might have the capabilities (and assets) of the captains I admired, while being happy for their successes and considerate of life's pitfalls they might have encountered.
Life has surprises. Hope your's are all positive and your karma doesn't override your dogma.
Bottums Up
As has been said before on similar threads, when you guys/gals who are being "forced" to endure too long a period in the RHS, and not so respectfully suggest us old folk move on, move on yourselves and vacate the RHS so that the new sprogs can get into the SNJ, then I'll consider moving on for you. 
What relevance corvette #x has on anything is beyond me.
What relevance corvette #x has on anything is beyond me.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 7th Nov 2013 at 04:20.
Flyboyike,
In 8 years and 2 airlines, you still haven't grasped the idea of seniority? I'm amazed. It simply means, you wait 'til your seniority number warrants the chance to upgrade-not more or less--you wait. Be patient, or as Capt Claret suggests, find a place in aviation where seniority doesn't rule.
In 8 years and 2 airlines, you still haven't grasped the idea of seniority? I'm amazed. It simply means, you wait 'til your seniority number warrants the chance to upgrade-not more or less--you wait. Be patient, or as Capt Claret suggests, find a place in aviation where seniority doesn't rule.
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Twas ever thus... years ago the fossilised remains of BA and others used to take their generous FS pensions and then walk into a direct command at the regional turbo prop operators. We all used to bitch about them nicking 'our' commands. Its only partially true, but was made somewhat worse when they used to brag about how they didn't really need to work and the TP job was just for pin money!
These days, we all get the opportunity to work an extra five years in the LH seat and those stuck in the RH seat just have to wait a bit longer, but will eventually have the same amount of years in the left. It just feels a bit raw now as we are still seeing the bulge of fossils created by the change in the law a few years back. My employer has published retirement figures that show a distinct bulge in 4 years time.
Also worth remembering that a fair few 15 year FO's earn as much as a year 1 skipper in Jet2, some even more.
These days, we all get the opportunity to work an extra five years in the LH seat and those stuck in the RH seat just have to wait a bit longer, but will eventually have the same amount of years in the left. It just feels a bit raw now as we are still seeing the bulge of fossils created by the change in the law a few years back. My employer has published retirement figures that show a distinct bulge in 4 years time.
Also worth remembering that a fair few 15 year FO's earn as much as a year 1 skipper in Jet2, some even more.
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retirement
In New Zealand the state law is one cannot be discriminated against due to race,color,religion or age.
But USA will not allow a captain of a heavy jet to be over 65,
so the flightless kiwi does not go to a us state as captain,
Most of the other routes of ANZ there is little problem.
I found ANZ a difficult airline to work for so I left at 50.
and then played at being an airline pilot until I was 56 and then gave it all away.
I have now had 28 real years of retirement and there are not enough days left to do all the things I want to do!
Flying used to be fun, but now its a trudge. one almost need a release note to use the toilet in nz aviation.
But USA will not allow a captain of a heavy jet to be over 65,
so the flightless kiwi does not go to a us state as captain,
Most of the other routes of ANZ there is little problem.
I found ANZ a difficult airline to work for so I left at 50.
and then played at being an airline pilot until I was 56 and then gave it all away.
I have now had 28 real years of retirement and there are not enough days left to do all the things I want to do!
Flying used to be fun, but now its a trudge. one almost need a release note to use the toilet in nz aviation.
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Most of the other routes of ANZ there is little problem
Any other route enters US or French airspace which apply the ICAO ruling hence no over 65's on the heavies which predominantly fly through these airspaces.
I found ANZ a difficult airline to work for so I left at 50
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
In 8 years and 2 airlines, you still haven't grasped the idea of seniority? I'm amazed. It simply means, you wait 'til your seniority number warrants the chance to upgrade-not more or less--you wait.
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Originally Posted by Desert185
Life has surprises. Hope your's are all positive and your karma doesn't override your dogma.
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don't know of ANY who took that chance, which tells me the issue wasn't that they wanted to keep flying "out of the love of it". They wanted to keep flying AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.
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This thread is a little 2 dimensional and boring, left seat right seat, old fart young whippersnapper. Actually its interesting because of some deeper social consequences. If anyone can be arsed Google Baby Boomers and add words like effect, legacy.
I am one by the way.
I am one by the way.
Flyboyike,
Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't. Your naming it, "seniority grab" implies they changed the law, THEY DID NOT, got it? The ICAO rule changed it, PERIOD.
As somene noted, don't like the change Congress passed, go elsewhere in aviation-overseas, corporate, whatever.
Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't. Your naming it, "seniority grab" implies they changed the law, THEY DID NOT, got it? The ICAO rule changed it, PERIOD.
As somene noted, don't like the change Congress passed, go elsewhere in aviation-overseas, corporate, whatever.
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galaxyflyer
Exactly correct. I went to the back seat (for the first time) while the company continued to drag on negotiations for the next contract. Two and a half years later, the contract was signed (with an increase in retirement benefits) and I retired shortly thereafter. Perhaps this will make Flyboyike feel a little better that someone is sharing his pain.
Exactly correct. I went to the back seat (for the first time) while the company continued to drag on negotiations for the next contract. Two and a half years later, the contract was signed (with an increase in retirement benefits) and I retired shortly thereafter. Perhaps this will make Flyboyike feel a little better that someone is sharing his pain.
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Flyboyike,
Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't.
Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't.
‘‘(1) NONRETROACTIVITY.—No person who has attained 60
years of age before the date of enactment of this section may
serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations
unless—
‘‘(A) such person is in the employment of that air
carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as
a required flight deck crew member; or
‘‘(B) such person is newly hired by an air carrier as
a pilot on or after such date of enactment without credit
for prior seniority or prior longevity for benefits or other
terms related to length of service prior to the date of
rehire under any labor agreement or employment policies
of the air carrier.
So, yes, they absolutely could come back, they just couldn't get their old seats back, which is when all their great love of flying promptly evaporated.
You don't have to believe me, read it for yourself here:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-11...110publ135.pdf
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Passenger POV
What about the passenger's opinion? I prefer a captain around 50 yrs old, and a first officer around 30 yrs old to give me confidence that maturity, fitness and youth are properly represented in the cockpit.
Mistrust in Management
'What about the passengers opinion.'
Well you can have an opinion but I think your particular preferences will count for very little.
Most pax seem to be of the opinion that the cheapest flight is the best.
Well you can have an opinion but I think your particular preferences will count for very little.
Most pax seem to be of the opinion that the cheapest flight is the best.
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Flyboyike and galaxy flyer may be saying the same thing. If you were still on the property (as an FE, for example) you could bid Captain or FO according to your seniority and when a vacancy existed. You could not bump someone already in the seat.
If you left the employ of the company at age 60, there was no coming back unless you were rehired at the bottom of the seniority list (not likely).
If you left the employ of the company at age 60, there was no coming back unless you were rehired at the bottom of the seniority list (not likely).
