Hats off to the RPG!
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Fingerflyer,
Forgive me for deviating off the subject slightly, but maths fascinates me.
Exactly 11 months ago to the day, on the 05th July 2012 in this post you stated that....
and that....
Then exactly a month later on the 05th August 2012 (10 months ago) you stated in this post that....
Again, forgive me asking as I am probably missing something obvious, but how did you go from 200 hours last year, to "840 your first year of (self employment) to 800 your second, and a projection of 800 this year (your third?)" That would only seem plausible if it was now 2014?
Forgive me for deviating off the subject slightly, but maths fascinates me.
Exactly 11 months ago to the day, on the 05th July 2012 in this post you stated that....
I have recent experience of applying to CAE for the Ryanair cadet programme; so I can share my experience with you.
I have 200 ish hours,
If you read my post, you will see that I'm not a cadet, I was never an 'Ill do 850 hrs guy' infact I expected to do about 500 hrs, my first year I did 840 my second about 800 and this year looks to be on track to be the same.
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goaround737
So you think Ryanair pilots wouldn't hack it otherwise? You think that you pay for the rating and that you just end up on the flight deck. There are many Pilots who paid for the rating and did not reach the STANDARD REQUIRED. They were dropped like they would be in any other airline.
Funny how many of our guys and girls after spending a couple of years in FR manage to "hack" it elsewhere in places like Emirates,BA, Thomson, Virgin, Norwegian.
Funny how many of our guys and girls after spending a couple of years in FR manage to "hack" it elsewhere in places like Emirates,BA, Thomson, Virgin, Norwegian.
Last edited by go around flaps15; 5th Jun 2013 at 08:39.
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Goaround737
I very rarely comment on this forum but your statement above has moved me to do so.
Despite the public face of RYR, the training department has to be near to or at the top of the tree with regard to standards and professionalism. I'm afraid that your comments betray your ignorance, arrogance and naivety.
Despite the public face of RYR, the training department has to be near to or at the top of the tree with regard to standards and professionalism. I'm afraid that your comments betray your ignorance, arrogance and naivety.
Last edited by pint'alfempty; 5th Jun 2013 at 09:07.
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Oh dear, people.....apart from feedinga very obvious TROLL,- just run the figures for this "lucrative " "cushy" job
Training, to the point you can take Command= Around £150 K......repay it over 10 years and that's around £300K total, with interest.
Put the same resources into a house and it will actually appreciate, even in this recession, at ~3 1/2 % PA.
However, you're now committed to repay 30K a year out of TAX PAID wages
At this point, I'm thinking you're all
mad...but there's more....because the job has restrictions, your amount of flying-time is closed-ended,-you cannot work "overtime " to earn extra and repay that debt quicker....the only way forward is to UP THE HOURLY RATE.
How many times have I read in this Forum , of retired Pilots with 30 thousand or more hours total time? How many ever stopped to think.....
"I paid well over a fiver an hour , just for the right to sit in that seat"
Your investment depreciates from the moment you get your Type-Rating. Overpaid and under-worked? surely a sick joke.
Anyone today, who allows the lure of driving a shiny jet, to overrule the reality of the true (poor) rewards for their efforts, wants their bumps feeling.
No wonder MOL and his ilk are laughing all the way to the bank.
NOTE:- I am not, and have never been, in the Aviation Industry. It IS undoubtedly a ruthless business and budgets are staggering (I just read £80K for a Pilot's seat- and they commonly keep one in stock, "in case"
)
Unfortunately, Aircrew have an emotional attachment to flying and current managements exploit this to keep T's and C's depressed.
To restore sanity needs a radical reduction on numbers training and fleet sizes.
When the amount of potential Pax who can actually afford a premium fare, and the number of seats available is almost the same, your conditions will get better.
Whilst there are huge numbers of seats to fill, the only way forward , is to drop the price so more can afford to fill them.
No matter how much you dislike RYR, it's tactics,ethos and HR, IT FILLS SEATS.
YES! there's a bit of fat there and IMO flight-crews deserve a nibble at that.
Perhaps, the suggestion I made many moons ago, is worthy of consideration.
BUY SHARES IN RYR....If a RYR Personnell "union" held them in trust, all members would get a share in the profits.......they'd also get a share in the possibility of the airline falling on hard-times and going TU.....but there you go- rarely do you get the penny AND the toffee!.
Training, to the point you can take Command= Around £150 K......repay it over 10 years and that's around £300K total, with interest.
Put the same resources into a house and it will actually appreciate, even in this recession, at ~3 1/2 % PA.
However, you're now committed to repay 30K a year out of TAX PAID wages
At this point, I'm thinking you're all
mad...but there's more....because the job has restrictions, your amount of flying-time is closed-ended,-you cannot work "overtime " to earn extra and repay that debt quicker....the only way forward is to UP THE HOURLY RATE.How many times have I read in this Forum , of retired Pilots with 30 thousand or more hours total time? How many ever stopped to think.....
"I paid well over a fiver an hour , just for the right to sit in that seat"
Your investment depreciates from the moment you get your Type-Rating. Overpaid and under-worked? surely a sick joke.
Anyone today, who allows the lure of driving a shiny jet, to overrule the reality of the true (poor) rewards for their efforts, wants their bumps feeling.
No wonder MOL and his ilk are laughing all the way to the bank.
NOTE:- I am not, and have never been, in the Aviation Industry. It IS undoubtedly a ruthless business and budgets are staggering (I just read £80K for a Pilot's seat- and they commonly keep one in stock, "in case"
)Unfortunately, Aircrew have an emotional attachment to flying and current managements exploit this to keep T's and C's depressed.
To restore sanity needs a radical reduction on numbers training and fleet sizes.
When the amount of potential Pax who can actually afford a premium fare, and the number of seats available is almost the same, your conditions will get better.
Whilst there are huge numbers of seats to fill, the only way forward , is to drop the price so more can afford to fill them.
No matter how much you dislike RYR, it's tactics,ethos and HR, IT FILLS SEATS.
YES! there's a bit of fat there and IMO flight-crews deserve a nibble at that.
Perhaps, the suggestion I made many moons ago, is worthy of consideration.
BUY SHARES IN RYR....If a RYR Personnell "union" held them in trust, all members would get a share in the profits.......they'd also get a share in the possibility of the airline falling on hard-times and going TU.....but there you go- rarely do you get the penny AND the toffee!.
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GAF15
I absolutely stand by what I say Go AroundFlaps 15. And no, im well enough aquatinted with the TR process to know that certain standards must be attained. The point I was attempting to make is that Ryanair provide an “in” for newly qualified pilots and as such forms the majority of their intake. By “hack it” I was referring to the ability of said recruit to get a first job in the current climate.
If you are so sure of the outstanding quality of newly recruited Ryanair pilots (I presume you once counted yourself amongst them?) I would question why they/you felt the need to spend £30k+ on a type rating, when surely the next jet job (emirates, Thomson, Norwegian, as you suggest) with a free TR was just around the corner?
No, you took this job and paid for it because it was an “in”, which is understandable. However, as I mentioned before, you were well aware of what awaited you.
Pint’alfempty- im glad to hear I moved you to comment on the matter, your defence of Ryanair no doubt contributes tothe ‘cut and thrust’ of the debate.
If you are so sure of the outstanding quality of newly recruited Ryanair pilots (I presume you once counted yourself amongst them?) I would question why they/you felt the need to spend £30k+ on a type rating, when surely the next jet job (emirates, Thomson, Norwegian, as you suggest) with a free TR was just around the corner?
No, you took this job and paid for it because it was an “in”, which is understandable. However, as I mentioned before, you were well aware of what awaited you.
Pint’alfempty- im glad to hear I moved you to comment on the matter, your defence of Ryanair no doubt contributes tothe ‘cut and thrust’ of the debate.
Last edited by goaround737; 5th Jun 2013 at 17:47.
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depone
I agree Depone, that experience is subjective and that you personally may not have realised what Ryanair was all about. That being said, im unsure why you didn't know?? (at the risk of sounding sarcastic which is not my intention, you have regular access to the internet, no?)
I know of 6 individuals who now work for Ryanair with various start dates commencing from roughly 2008/2009 to date. All of these guys without exception knew exactly the conditions that awaited them regarding T+Cs and union status (indeed, these are not stupid people, it would be a foolhardy venture to spend £30k on buying your way into a company if you did not know EXACTLY what £30k was buying you??) Furthermore all of them accepted the, frankly awful verging on opportunistic and exploitative, conditions therein!
These people did so because this afforded them an opportunity at a job when no other job would have been forthcoming! I agree that these people are not bad people or pilots but to whine about conditions when they have purchased the product/outcome in questions, is simply ludicrous.
I know of 6 individuals who now work for Ryanair with various start dates commencing from roughly 2008/2009 to date. All of these guys without exception knew exactly the conditions that awaited them regarding T+Cs and union status (indeed, these are not stupid people, it would be a foolhardy venture to spend £30k on buying your way into a company if you did not know EXACTLY what £30k was buying you??) Furthermore all of them accepted the, frankly awful verging on opportunistic and exploitative, conditions therein!
These people did so because this afforded them an opportunity at a job when no other job would have been forthcoming! I agree that these people are not bad people or pilots but to whine about conditions when they have purchased the product/outcome in questions, is simply ludicrous.
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Not so, me thinks. 1) Is what is offered and promised! 2) Is what really is going on.
You believe and you need but, the two are sometimes very different. Let's hope that a company that employes more than 2500 pilots will sort out their T&C's?
You believe and you need but, the two are sometimes very different. Let's hope that a company that employes more than 2500 pilots will sort out their T&C's?
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goaround737,
when you go for the interview they tell you stories like: 50and over bases to chose from, great contract, fabulous roster etc
Then ,once you are in, you find out that out of the 50 available bases only about 2 or 3 are available to you, that the contract they made you sign is actually full of legal traps for which people are being chased by tax and social security authorities, that the fabulous roster is being given or taken away according to their agenda and much more.
It's a free world and while people are free to join such an outfit it is also very true that they are free to complain and fight it afterwords.
when you go for the interview they tell you stories like: 50and over bases to chose from, great contract, fabulous roster etc
Then ,once you are in, you find out that out of the 50 available bases only about 2 or 3 are available to you, that the contract they made you sign is actually full of legal traps for which people are being chased by tax and social security authorities, that the fabulous roster is being given or taken away according to their agenda and much more.
It's a free world and while people are free to join such an outfit it is also very true that they are free to complain and fight it afterwords.
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For my part, I have full sympathy for RYR guys. Yeah, they knew what they were getting into, few wanted to get into it, and I'm delighted to see that they're trying to improve their lot. I suspect it could be a great employer if T&C's and pay etc were improved. If the management don't want to (and I always put the disclaimer that the company also has to be financially sound, no point getting a pay rise and losing your job a month later) treat their employees with respect, hell, force them to!
RYR management don't seem to understand, or deal in, reason and morality, so bravo that at least one of their employee groups is growing some teeth!
If you don't like it...damn well do something to improve it!
Best of luck guys!
RYR management don't seem to understand, or deal in, reason and morality, so bravo that at least one of their employee groups is growing some teeth!
If you don't like it...damn well do something to improve it!
Best of luck guys!
Last edited by 170to5; 7th Jun 2013 at 15:44.
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Its often said that the pilot workforce needs to band together to improve T&Cs. But they need to band together and fight against FR/SSTR/P2F pilots who are the ones destroying T&Cs across the industry.
They are worse than in a strike.
The funny thing is once they get themselves into BA Emirates or wherever after their stint in the Loco, they come on here complaining theirs T&Cs are getting worse again.
And whos to blame?
Themselves.
Over the last few years I have met many people from outside of aviation who mention they have friends working for FR and that I might aswell hand a CV in there and get a job. I then explain to them that it costs 30000 euro to pass the interview and that by accepting it their pilot friend has not only ****** up his own profession but that the practice of paying for jobs will inevitably seep into other industries too. (We're not the only ones who operate expensive equipment)
End result? The FR pilot loses some friends.
They are worse than
in a strike.The funny thing is once they get themselves into BA Emirates or wherever after their stint in the Loco, they come on here complaining theirs T&Cs are getting worse again.
And whos to blame?
Themselves.
Over the last few years I have met many people from outside of aviation who mention they have friends working for FR and that I might aswell hand a CV in there and get a job. I then explain to them that it costs 30000 euro to pass the interview and that by accepting it their pilot friend has not only ****** up his own profession but that the practice of paying for jobs will inevitably seep into other industries too. (We're not the only ones who operate expensive equipment)
End result? The FR pilot loses some friends.
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dannyalliga
I hear you Dannyalliga, but the point im trying (again) to make is why would you believe all that BS??
Despite what you may have been told, the limited choice of bases, the poor contract, the tax issues - are all well known and plastered all over the web, they get ribbed for it in the national press too! Didn't you read into this before you parted with the money? You've made it this far so I cant believe that you're short of grey matter, are you gullible?!
Anyway I digress. Whilst I appreciate and agree that everyone has the right to fight for better T+Cs, my original issue was with the seeking of congratulations when attempting to improve said conditions (check the title of the thread), and sympathy when you find you don't like the particular situation you've bought your way into.
Despite what you may have been told, the limited choice of bases, the poor contract, the tax issues - are all well known and plastered all over the web, they get ribbed for it in the national press too! Didn't you read into this before you parted with the money? You've made it this far so I cant believe that you're short of grey matter, are you gullible?!
Anyway I digress. Whilst I appreciate and agree that everyone has the right to fight for better T+Cs, my original issue was with the seeking of congratulations when attempting to improve said conditions (check the title of the thread), and sympathy when you find you don't like the particular situation you've bought your way into.
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Tea Towel, you have got it spot on there.
I am tired of the people who spout on about attack the
company but not the pilots, well I am sorry to say it
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.
Yes MOL and his cronies are the people who have carried
out the dismantling of the industry, but the pilots are
the ones who allowed it to happen, sounds a simple
statement? Well it is a simple thing which has happened.
I am about to retire from this once fine profession, I have
known many fine people and met many more, but the
youngsters coming in now have a very different view of
what the profession is all about, and that my friends, is
the long and short of it, very hard to change now.
I am tired of the people who spout on about attack the
company but not the pilots, well I am sorry to say it
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.
Yes MOL and his cronies are the people who have carried
out the dismantling of the industry, but the pilots are
the ones who allowed it to happen, sounds a simple
statement? Well it is a simple thing which has happened.
I am about to retire from this once fine profession, I have
known many fine people and met many more, but the
youngsters coming in now have a very different view of
what the profession is all about, and that my friends, is
the long and short of it, very hard to change now.
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Few cadets if any join FR with their eyes closed, its better than P2F and the training is excellent, if you start with the mind set that you can change things from within, then your in the wrong job, if however your mindset is 'get in' get hours' get out then you'll probably enjoy it, the fact that it needn't be that way is irrelevant.
Unless there is a change in the law, then there never will be a union in FR, the whole contractor rational is at the heart of that simple fact, it avoids unions.
A union would push up FR costs, reduce its flexibility and risk strike action, in my view MOL would shut it down before backing down to a union.
He will provide the T&C's that deliver the balance they need between pilot attrition & pilot retention and a rate of attrition is required by the business plan, training is a profit centre, not a cost like most airlines.
The only time things will improve is if they cannot get enough pilots to fly the schedule, hence the over supply in training, having trained pilots "off" their books but available & willing is an insurance policy, its like paying for a whore when you need one, rather than entering a relationship with all the costs,commitments and compromises that go with it.
Some call it exploitation,other's see it as supply & demand, but both parties are willing.
Unless there is a change in the law, then there never will be a union in FR, the whole contractor rational is at the heart of that simple fact, it avoids unions.
A union would push up FR costs, reduce its flexibility and risk strike action, in my view MOL would shut it down before backing down to a union.
He will provide the T&C's that deliver the balance they need between pilot attrition & pilot retention and a rate of attrition is required by the business plan, training is a profit centre, not a cost like most airlines.
The only time things will improve is if they cannot get enough pilots to fly the schedule, hence the over supply in training, having trained pilots "off" their books but available & willing is an insurance policy, its like paying for a whore when you need one, rather than entering a relationship with all the costs,commitments and compromises that go with it.
Some call it exploitation,other's see it as supply & demand, but both parties are willing.
Last edited by Facelookbovvered; 9th Jun 2013 at 19:54.
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@Leg:
Sorry pal, but for me are the old and almost retiring pilots that have ruined this once fine industry...failing completely in the mission of leaving a better world for youngster, paying for this also a little bit of their wage.
By the way, I am a skipper, A 320, over fifty, ex Air Force, more than ten grands flight hours...so I am closer to you then to the young pilots; nevertheless this is what I think.
Regds.
well I am sorry to say it
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.
is the pilots who have ruined this once fine industry.
By the way, I am a skipper, A 320, over fifty, ex Air Force, more than ten grands flight hours...so I am closer to you then to the young pilots; nevertheless this is what I think.
Regds.
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Facelook.....
Following that philosophy RYR is merely a training school that will be a revolving door of F/O's. Are you suggesting that the sharp ones will leave? With 350 a/c in the fleet RYR will need 1800 captains. They will be those who stayed for the medium term, at least. Of what calibre will they be?
Following that philosophy RYR is merely a training school that will be a revolving door of F/O's. Are you suggesting that the sharp ones will leave? With 350 a/c in the fleet RYR will need 1800 captains. They will be those who stayed for the medium term, at least. Of what calibre will they be?
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I have one question for Goaround737 and Teatowel - if you were 22 with a CPL IR with debts to pay and the only show in town was Ryanair, what course of action would you take?
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The same people tha bitch and whine about RYR pilots not accepting their T&Cs because that's what they signed up for are the same people who bitch about RYR destroying the industry's T&CS and that RYR pilots are doing nothing about it.
we are all entitled to collective bargaining, so get with the times, regardless of how one started out in this industry whether it was bonded TR, paid TR, self sponsored or a daddy's Oxford/CTC route into a big player.
we are all entitled to collective bargaining, so get with the times, regardless of how one started out in this industry whether it was bonded TR, paid TR, self sponsored or a daddy's Oxford/CTC route into a big player.
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RAT 5
Yeah pretty much, i know a fair few skippers at FR and most are based where they live and that's why they stay, once the cockpit doors closed then you could be working for anyone, its just the on the ground with passengers boarding that are enraged over being fleeced at the gate, the pressure on the cabin crew to sell and get away on time. If your based a long way from where you call home then you head for the exit sign if some one can get you closer to home.
on the ground with passengers boarding that are enraged over being fleeced at the gate, the pressure on the cabin crew to sell and get away on time. If your based a long way from where you call home then you head for the exit sign if some one can get you closer to home.
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From what I am seeing the RPG is struggling, 22 guys turned up to a RPG organized meeting in STN last month I hear. Previous campaigns have attracted far larger gatherings. I am not hearing any great support for the RPG in STN and In my opinion without STN on board a union cannot succeed. Also while some bases did refuse to sign new base agreements, more bases agreed new base agreements than refused them.
I am only saying this to guys thinking of joining. Do not expect conditions to suddenly improve should you join Ryanair. New Guys are now paying up-to 58% tax in countries such as Spain. ( mainly due to 29% employers contribution ). During the off season ( about 5 months) you can expect about 1500 a month. Can you repay your loan and live on that? Don't say you were not told!
I am only saying this to guys thinking of joining. Do not expect conditions to suddenly improve should you join Ryanair. New Guys are now paying up-to 58% tax in countries such as Spain. ( mainly due to 29% employers contribution ). During the off season ( about 5 months) you can expect about 1500 a month. Can you repay your loan and live on that? Don't say you were not told!
Originally Posted by Facelookbovvered
if however your mindset is 'get in' get hours' get out then you'll probably enjoy it, the fact that it needn't be that way is irrelevant.
It does highlight the self absorbed attitude quite nicely though.