New Airline Pilot Union Launches in UK - PPU
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I'm afraid this thread is being hijacked by some idiots for their own grievances in their company. Please don't turn this into a diatribe about BA, there are plenty of threads going where you can whine about your company dynamics, or lack of.
Back to the question above I get the impression that there is quite a positive mood in VA towards the PPU. The numbers signing up should get close to half the pilot workforce fairly quickly - well hopefully , of course it depends how many put their money where their mouth is. The dissatisfaction with BALPA in the company is palpable and that is the route cause of this new venture.
I've been a member of BALPA in several companies and it has never been to my benefit, so it's time for change. I've already signed up !
Back to the question above I get the impression that there is quite a positive mood in VA towards the PPU. The numbers signing up should get close to half the pilot workforce fairly quickly - well hopefully , of course it depends how many put their money where their mouth is. The dissatisfaction with BALPA in the company is palpable and that is the route cause of this new venture.
I've been a member of BALPA in several companies and it has never been to my benefit, so it's time for change. I've already signed up !
...The numbers signing up should get close to half the pilot workforce fairly quickly...
The airline of course will make encouraging noises - it's to their advantage if the pilot community is divided.
If much more than handful sign up then the VAA pilots can say goodbye to their T&Cs unless the entire workforce signs up and I can's see that happening. Ah well...
Exactly... Divide and conquer. VA management has won already.
Any union is only as strong as its members resolve. BALPA's or any unions biggest problem these days. Too much apathy and fear of industrial action. UK law ties the hands of the unions without member support.
The new union wont be any more successful than BALPA has been.
You watch.
And will PPU offer the international support of IFALPA etc?
Any union is only as strong as its members resolve. BALPA's or any unions biggest problem these days. Too much apathy and fear of industrial action. UK law ties the hands of the unions without member support.
The new union wont be any more successful than BALPA has been.
You watch.
And will PPU offer the international support of IFALPA etc?
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VS Pilots are going to find out what the real world is like fairly soon.
The PPU will succeed in getting BALPA's voluntary Recognition Agreement withdrawn by VS but will never be recognised themselves. Just google the A.L.A.E Union Recognition in Virgin Atlantic case to see the lengths Virgin will go to to prevent this from happening.
So once you've helped the Company get rid of your representation watch what they do to your very spoilt Terms and Conditions.
Quite frankly you deserve it, I've watched as the complaints and accusations are thrown but hardly any of you actually do anything about it. You've left it to some of the members of previous VACC's to find alternatives but there is no real new blood. Interestingly not all of those past VACC members are on board the new wagon.
VS Pilots are wrapped in cotton wool, expect BALPA to do everything for them but won't get their hands dirty themselves. Well you are now going to have to lie in the bed you've made!
The PPU will succeed in getting BALPA's voluntary Recognition Agreement withdrawn by VS but will never be recognised themselves. Just google the A.L.A.E Union Recognition in Virgin Atlantic case to see the lengths Virgin will go to to prevent this from happening.
So once you've helped the Company get rid of your representation watch what they do to your very spoilt Terms and Conditions.
Quite frankly you deserve it, I've watched as the complaints and accusations are thrown but hardly any of you actually do anything about it. You've left it to some of the members of previous VACC's to find alternatives but there is no real new blood. Interestingly not all of those past VACC members are on board the new wagon.
VS Pilots are wrapped in cotton wool, expect BALPA to do everything for them but won't get their hands dirty themselves. Well you are now going to have to lie in the bed you've made!
"By clicking this box, I confirm that I have read the Consistution of the PPU and that, I agree to join the PPU as a member and that both the PPU and I agree to be bound by the Constitution of the PPU (as amended from time to time)"
Based on the "Join Us" webpage, it would appear that the time for amendment has arrived ....
Based on the "Join Us" webpage, it would appear that the time for amendment has arrived ....
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I say good luck to those at Virgin and PPU.
BALPA
PRO
Established on company and national level.
CONS
Ineffective.
Perceived as a British Airways Union.
Large cost base. ( employees ,pension commitments, Office Staff )
Cost to members. ( capped at 1% )
Relevance. ( The Log....Financial advice...)
Complacency.( did not see issue with Pay to fly)
Will not contemplate industrial action so is perceived as toothless tiger.
BALPA
PRO
Established on company and national level.
CONS
Ineffective.
Perceived as a British Airways Union.
Large cost base. ( employees ,pension commitments, Office Staff )
Cost to members. ( capped at 1% )
Relevance. ( The Log....Financial advice...)
Complacency.( did not see issue with Pay to fly)
Will not contemplate industrial action so is perceived as toothless tiger.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by me
What did Virgin find 'inadequate' in the IPA?
Perhaps this will wither on the vine.
BOAC
The IPA were approached, by ex VA Company Council members (VACC), but for reasons I cannot recall they did not proceed. Their conclusion was that it was better to start afresh with a brand new union as they had lost faith in BALPA as well. The debacle of the lost strike was handled in an appalling fashion by both BALPA HQ and the VACC.
There is far more to this story so I will give you the brief version. What happened next was that VA pilots were awarded the very same pay increase that had been unacceptable only months before. To understand why there was so much anger directed at BALPA you have to understand that 97% of the pilots voted in favour of industrial action. The BALPA General Secretary decided, for reasons best known to himself, to call off the strike. Some, possibly many, of these pilots will have come to the conclusion that BALPA HQ had an agenda other than protecting the interests of its VA members. At the very least it was staggering incompetence on the part of the union to advocate a course of action that it was not going to follow through on. It is worth considering that every other airline board of management now knows BALPA is all bluster.
The founding directors of the PPU are mostly ex VACC members who were committed BALPA members and who defended the pilots' interests in a tenacious and intelligent manner. They did not desert BALPA, it left them.
The IPA were approached, by ex VA Company Council members (VACC), but for reasons I cannot recall they did not proceed. Their conclusion was that it was better to start afresh with a brand new union as they had lost faith in BALPA as well. The debacle of the lost strike was handled in an appalling fashion by both BALPA HQ and the VACC.
There is far more to this story so I will give you the brief version. What happened next was that VA pilots were awarded the very same pay increase that had been unacceptable only months before. To understand why there was so much anger directed at BALPA you have to understand that 97% of the pilots voted in favour of industrial action. The BALPA General Secretary decided, for reasons best known to himself, to call off the strike. Some, possibly many, of these pilots will have come to the conclusion that BALPA HQ had an agenda other than protecting the interests of its VA members. At the very least it was staggering incompetence on the part of the union to advocate a course of action that it was not going to follow through on. It is worth considering that every other airline board of management now knows BALPA is all bluster.
The founding directors of the PPU are mostly ex VACC members who were committed BALPA members and who defended the pilots' interests in a tenacious and intelligent manner. They did not desert BALPA, it left them.
The BALPA General Secretary decided, for reasons best known to himself, to call off the strike.
Shaman
If you're a BALPA member and you work for VAA you will have a copy of the Ewing report. I suggest you read it.
If you are neither then how can you have the information to make an intelligent comment?
Edited to add that I'm NOT suggesting that people from outside shouldn't contribute. I'd welcome the debate as it affects, I believe, every BALPA member.
If you're a BALPA member and you work for VAA you will have a copy of the Ewing report. I suggest you read it.
If you are neither then how can you have the information to make an intelligent comment?
Edited to add that I'm NOT suggesting that people from outside shouldn't contribute. I'd welcome the debate as it affects, I believe, every BALPA member.
Last edited by BBK; 16th Jan 2013 at 15:43.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Shaman, it doesn't really matter a tuppeny damn what the politics are, the fact is, BALPA disaffected a proportion of it's membership, to the point where the left, with their money.
However you wish to huff and puff about it, it was a pi55-poor way for BALPA management ot bite the hand that fed them.
No dog in this fight, not even in Aviation......so, if an outsider can see it, I suggest you take a few paces back, remove the rose-tinted specs and view the scene objectively.
However you wish to huff and puff about it, it was a pi55-poor way for BALPA management ot bite the hand that fed them.
No dog in this fight, not even in Aviation......so, if an outsider can see it, I suggest you take a few paces back, remove the rose-tinted specs and view the scene objectively.
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PPU Constitution
A copy of the PPU Constitution can be seen here. I found this bit interesting :-
I wouldn't let any union tell me what sort of insurance I want or need.
12.
Professional Legal Liability Insurance
12.1.The Union shall maintain a policy of Professional Legal Liability Expenses Insurance to cover members’ professional
legal expenses incurred in the course of their role as a pilot employee of any operator listed in Rule 3.2. The extent of
the professional legal liability cover will be strictly limited to the sum (currently £125,000 or £250,000 per claim)
selected by the member upon joining or upon renewal of membership or upon the member specifically increasing
their level of professional legal liability cover, the cost of which shall be incorporated into that member’s
contributions. A copy of the general policy wording shall be available to members via the Union’s website and the legal
liability insurance cover shall be strictly limited to that provided in the policy document and associated schedules.
12.2.legal expenses incurred in the course of their role as a pilot employee of any operator listed in Rule 3.2. The extent of
the professional legal liability cover will be strictly limited to the sum (currently £125,000 or £250,000 per claim)
selected by the member upon joining or upon renewal of membership or upon the member specifically increasing
their level of professional legal liability cover, the cost of which shall be incorporated into that member’s
contributions. A copy of the general policy wording shall be available to members via the Union’s website and the legal
liability insurance cover shall be strictly limited to that provided in the policy document and associated schedules.
Only in the event that a member is excluded from the Professional Legal Liability Expenses Insurance cover detailed in
Rule 12.1 for whatever reason, may that member be entitled to seek a proerata reduction in the legal indemnity
insurance component of their membership fees and obtain their own Legal Expenses Insurance cover from an
alternative insurer and it is confirmed in writing to the member concerned that such policy is acceptable to the Union.
12.3.Rule 12.1 for whatever reason, may that member be entitled to seek a proerata reduction in the legal indemnity
insurance component of their membership fees and obtain their own Legal Expenses Insurance cover from an
alternative insurer and it is confirmed in writing to the member concerned that such policy is acceptable to the Union.
Members who have an unexpired pilot’s professional legal liability policy in place at the time of joining will be
admitted as members provided a) that their existing policy is confirmed in writing to the member concerned that such
policy is acceptable to the Union before joining, and b) that the member concerned joins the PPU scheme in
accordance with Rule 12.1 upon the expiry of his or her own policy.
12.4.admitted as members provided a) that their existing policy is confirmed in writing to the member concerned that such
policy is acceptable to the Union before joining, and b) that the member concerned joins the PPU scheme in
accordance with Rule 12.1 upon the expiry of his or her own policy.
For the avoidance of doubt, all members of the Union acknowledge as a specific condition of their membership of the
Union that the Union itself does not offer legal protection to members and that any and all legal protection coverage
for members is expressly limited in accordance with Rules 12.1, 12.
2 and 12.3.
Union that the Union itself does not offer legal protection to members and that any and all legal protection coverage
for members is expressly limited in accordance with Rules 12.1, 12.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I think he has a fair point. Your indemnity is a limited sum depending on how much you pay and you have to take out the ppu's indemnity. What if my employer provides similar levels of indemnity. Would that invalidate my membership status at the PPU if I were to join? As has been said before, the devil is in the detail.
