BA Service Pilots
Join Date: Dec 2014
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I’ve flown with a lot of ex forces. They were all ok, strangely the more precious were a couple of ex transport, But not near to all.
The biggest xxxx I have encountered were Air Force officers who didn’t fly ( admin, ATC, engineers ) and then went into civil aviation .
Massive chips on their shoulders
The biggest xxxx I have encountered were Air Force officers who didn’t fly ( admin, ATC, engineers ) and then went into civil aviation .
Massive chips on their shoulders
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Sorry to burst your bubble but "somebody" never tried it. "Somebody" has however been in this game over 20 years and has seen many instances of ex service types getting a head start on all of us poor saps simply because they were buggered by Badger in the mess in 1986 or they used to fly with Squiffy Fart-Blenkinsop back in the day. No great surprise really, people do stick with their own, just good old fashioned tribalism as we see every day in most forms of human endeavour.
With the benefit of hindsight I probably would have had a far easier time in this game if I had been in the services but there you go, I chose my path many years ago for better or worse.
With the benefit of hindsight I probably would have had a far easier time in this game if I had been in the services but there you go, I chose my path many years ago for better or worse.
It does mean you need to have friends, which I assume is difficult for you when it appears you spend your evenings getting heated about RAF pilots being ‘buggered’ in the mess.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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. I chose my path many years ago for better or worse.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
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I find the concept of a ‘Managed Path’ scheme to be hilarious!
Does that imply that ex-military pilots are not competent at managing their own careers and need a ‘Managed Path’ to help them cope?
That would then seem to imply that civilian pilots are competent enough at managing their own careers that they do not need such a ‘Managed Path’!!
Maybe this is as a result of them having been 'serviced' while in the military that they need BA to 'service' them too?
The mind boggles!!
(And please, keep female pilots out of this as things could then go horribly wrong!)
Does that imply that ex-military pilots are not competent at managing their own careers and need a ‘Managed Path’ to help them cope?
That would then seem to imply that civilian pilots are competent enough at managing their own careers that they do not need such a ‘Managed Path’!!
Maybe this is as a result of them having been 'serviced' while in the military that they need BA to 'service' them too?
The mind boggles!!
(And please, keep female pilots out of this as things could then go horribly wrong!)
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Age: 55
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Trossie,
I agree it is a strange term, what we have to remember is that there were large numbers of service pilots (not so many now sadly) leaving HM employment after many years flying who hold only the basic EASA licenses.
When I left I had nearly 4000 hours flying rotary but didn’t fancy the idea of flogging around the North Sea so obtained a CPL (IR), this alone would not have allowed me to apply to BA as either a cadet or a DEP, the “managed path” allows those in a similar position to apply to BA and for BA to tap into the military market. The only people leaving the military who could apply as DEPs are the multi engine drivers, so fast jet or rotary guys could potentially struggle especially as they tend to be in their mid to late 30’s
As it was I went elsewhere for personal reasons and joined BA as a DEP a few years back.
I agree it is a strange term, what we have to remember is that there were large numbers of service pilots (not so many now sadly) leaving HM employment after many years flying who hold only the basic EASA licenses.
When I left I had nearly 4000 hours flying rotary but didn’t fancy the idea of flogging around the North Sea so obtained a CPL (IR), this alone would not have allowed me to apply to BA as either a cadet or a DEP, the “managed path” allows those in a similar position to apply to BA and for BA to tap into the military market. The only people leaving the military who could apply as DEPs are the multi engine drivers, so fast jet or rotary guys could potentially struggle especially as they tend to be in their mid to late 30’s
As it was I went elsewhere for personal reasons and joined BA as a DEP a few years back.
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Goo and bad
There’s good and bad in both career civilian and ex military. The airline I work for has ex military in management and training and they are excellent. The airline before had ex military and they were some of the worst and incompetent individuals I have ever worked with.
I think is that when we are told by ex military (normally RAF) that they are the ‘elite’ and we as civilians will never fly to ‘their standard’, we just laugh. Especially when the evidence speaks otherwise. And stop telling everybody you are amazing leaders. It’s bollocks.
The excellent ex mil are the exception, not the rule.
And yes, there are lots of non ex military pilots out there who are also poor leaders, egotistcal and lacking in ability.
But as Zebbd says, when a group of mediocre with an ego ex mil try and tribalise an airline, it’s a general morale and commercial disaster.
I think is that when we are told by ex military (normally RAF) that they are the ‘elite’ and we as civilians will never fly to ‘their standard’, we just laugh. Especially when the evidence speaks otherwise. And stop telling everybody you are amazing leaders. It’s bollocks.
The excellent ex mil are the exception, not the rule.
And yes, there are lots of non ex military pilots out there who are also poor leaders, egotistcal and lacking in ability.
But as Zebbd says, when a group of mediocre with an ego ex mil try and tribalise an airline, it’s a general morale and commercial disaster.
I would suggest that the quality of your flying skills has almost no relation to your ability to be effective in a management position in a business. I think this principal applies equally for people with service or non service backgrounds.
And yes I did serve so I believe I can make an informed comment on this issue.
And yes I did serve so I believe I can make an informed comment on this issue.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Guys and girls on the managed path still have to jump through all the hoops to get into BA, they don’t just appear as if by magic.
Being in the military these days is as much about management (certainly in the Fleet Air Arm and army, not so sure about the RAF) as it is about flying so these folk are coming into companies with that experience as well.
Not sure why there is such hostility towards those who chose to serve, how would you suggest they get a civvy job on leaving? These are experienced aviators with lots of life experience and the proven ability of man management, I say let’s cut them some slack, there really aren’t that many out there anymore and if BA value them, good.
As for cabsav stating excellent ex military guys are the exception not the rule, beg to differ, since leaving the forces 10 years ago I have only flown with 1 ex service pilot who I thought shouldn’t be there (and he was exVC10’s).
Being in the military these days is as much about management (certainly in the Fleet Air Arm and army, not so sure about the RAF) as it is about flying so these folk are coming into companies with that experience as well.
Not sure why there is such hostility towards those who chose to serve, how would you suggest they get a civvy job on leaving? These are experienced aviators with lots of life experience and the proven ability of man management, I say let’s cut them some slack, there really aren’t that many out there anymore and if BA value them, good.
As for cabsav stating excellent ex military guys are the exception not the rule, beg to differ, since leaving the forces 10 years ago I have only flown with 1 ex service pilot who I thought shouldn’t be there (and he was exVC10’s).
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Does that imply that ex-military pilots are not competent at managing their own careers and need a ‘Managed Path’ to help them cope?
That would then seem to imply that civilian pilots are competent enough at managing their own careers that they do not need such a ‘Managed Path’!!
Maybe this is as a result of them having been 'serviced' while in the military that they need BA to 'service' them too?
That would then seem to imply that civilian pilots are competent enough at managing their own careers that they do not need such a ‘Managed Path’!!
Maybe this is as a result of them having been 'serviced' while in the military that they need BA to 'service' them too?
The excellent ex mil are the exception, not the rule.
Just for awareness, all mil pilots now complete a full CPL/IR and Skills test. 14 Theory exams. You get MCC exemption only if you are ex multi pilot (and I understand some of the rotary types dont count for this). So there is no longer no less equivalence nor credibility in proving one's worth as a professionally licenced pilot. I also remember having to fly to an equivalent standard as my civilian counterpart when flying the sim on assessment.
As to the management aspect, most managerial elements as far as I can tell, are established in standard operating procedures or if necessary, calling back to current operations. If anything, exceptional leadership and managerial skills developed whilst in the military go against the civilan mold, as you very much have the same big picture (nor need to) as is required whilst operating military ops.
We do offer a track record, a pretty decent training background by civilian standards (and thats purely down to commercial reasons) and typically, command experience at an age that would shock most legacy carriers. You have to accept that makes ex-mil a low training risk for type rating.
Join Date: Sep 2017
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As a current serving RAF FJ driver it is really disappointing to hear some of the comments on this thread.
I think this has been concluded nicely above; whatever spectrum of society you take a glance at, they will all have the oddities in there.
As someone who is looking keenly to join the airlines in the near future I certainly won't be approaching any recruitment or training course thinking that my FJ experience is going to mean much directly. However I am comfortable with the fact that I have been tested in some of the most difficult situations whilst flying, and bring that experience to the table for a civilian company. This is surely invaluable, and something that any potential future employer of mine gets for free.
It saddens me to think that if my background was to be brought up on a flight deck in the future, that there are clearly people out there that don't have the intelligence to appreciate that one, two, even ten bad eggs does not mean that the next one will only talk about everything military, or what happened in the Mess.
Leaving the service is a daunting prospect, the MP, I believe, whilst not perfect, clearly makes that process a little smoother - whilst still having to complete all the pre-requisites of any other DEP.
Please don't generalise too much; I am amongst a cadre of good guys and girls who are still flying operationally on a daily basis over some nasty areas, spending a lot of time away from home.
I think this has been concluded nicely above; whatever spectrum of society you take a glance at, they will all have the oddities in there.
As someone who is looking keenly to join the airlines in the near future I certainly won't be approaching any recruitment or training course thinking that my FJ experience is going to mean much directly. However I am comfortable with the fact that I have been tested in some of the most difficult situations whilst flying, and bring that experience to the table for a civilian company. This is surely invaluable, and something that any potential future employer of mine gets for free.
It saddens me to think that if my background was to be brought up on a flight deck in the future, that there are clearly people out there that don't have the intelligence to appreciate that one, two, even ten bad eggs does not mean that the next one will only talk about everything military, or what happened in the Mess.
Leaving the service is a daunting prospect, the MP, I believe, whilst not perfect, clearly makes that process a little smoother - whilst still having to complete all the pre-requisites of any other DEP.
Please don't generalise too much; I am amongst a cadre of good guys and girls who are still flying operationally on a daily basis over some nasty areas, spending a lot of time away from home.
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Banterbus, don't worry. There are lots of extremely competent RAF pilots here in BA who are, as expected, very good and very welcome. Our chief pilot (Boeing) is ex-RAF and is probably one of the most respected individuals in the BA flying community.
Look forward to seeing you on the line someday...
Edited for typos...
Look forward to seeing you on the line someday...
Edited for typos...
Last edited by no sponsor; 11th Mar 2018 at 11:19.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Banterbus.
Don’t sweat it I’m ex rotary (Fleet Air Arm) and have been welcomed with open arms in both airlines I have worked for, BA has a huge variety of backgrounds and they do value ex military guys and pretty much everyone I have flown with wants to shoot the breeze and chat about experiences.
There are odd ones in every walk of life and aviation is no different.
Don’t sweat it I’m ex rotary (Fleet Air Arm) and have been welcomed with open arms in both airlines I have worked for, BA has a huge variety of backgrounds and they do value ex military guys and pretty much everyone I have flown with wants to shoot the breeze and chat about experiences.
There are odd ones in every walk of life and aviation is no different.
Had one guy suggest that we ex RAF types were on a 'second career' so we should just 'watch it'. I didn't mention that I was on a third of fourth career or he'd have had a total spin-out.
I found most non-mil trained pilots excellent, well adjusted, good handlers and nice to their FO.
As a B747 captain I had some ex FJ FOs on the Jumbo as their first transport type and it was clear why they made FJ and I didn't - they converted easily, were well adjusted, no 'chip' and the only comment, when I asked, was "It's got a lot of inertia, hasn't it?
As previously mentioned, some people, mil or civ trained, are great and a very few less so.
CRM peer reporting came as a great shock to some whose view of themselves was very different from that of their colleagues.
I found most non-mil trained pilots excellent, well adjusted, good handlers and nice to their FO.
As a B747 captain I had some ex FJ FOs on the Jumbo as their first transport type and it was clear why they made FJ and I didn't - they converted easily, were well adjusted, no 'chip' and the only comment, when I asked, was "It's got a lot of inertia, hasn't it?
As previously mentioned, some people, mil or civ trained, are great and a very few less so.
CRM peer reporting came as a great shock to some whose view of themselves was very different from that of their colleagues.
As others have said all manageged path is about is trying to tie in service exit dates with possible DEP slots, it’s not hand holding..
TBH the “now” in there has got me puzzled...hasn’t that pretty much always been the case? Certainly when I “transitioned” in the late 80s the likes of PPSC (remember them) was chocka with military non multi pilots doing all the theory stuff and then heading off to the schools to do their type rating/twin IR....
Just for awareness, all mil pilots now complete a full CPL/IR and Skills test. 14 Theory exams. You get MCC exemption only if you are ex multi pilot (and I understand some of the rotary types dont count for this)
Gender Faculty Specialist
I work with a fair few ex military pilots. Not one them is an arse. All are professional and committed, a pleasure to fly with and want to learn. Most are surprised at the pace and workload of a type rating (of course you could blame that on the trainers!) but being the type of person they are they just get on with it (also chivvied me along a bit and I was on my fifth).
If someone wants to hand fly a raw data ILS or a visual, which is fine by me, more than likely its an ex mil guy, if only for some practice. In fact in the last nineteen years I’ve had one, yes one, FO not from a military back ground want to turn everything off for an approach.
Conversely there are quite a lot of civvy bell ends. I might even be one.
Respect.
If someone wants to hand fly a raw data ILS or a visual, which is fine by me, more than likely its an ex mil guy, if only for some practice. In fact in the last nineteen years I’ve had one, yes one, FO not from a military back ground want to turn everything off for an approach.
Conversely there are quite a lot of civvy bell ends. I might even be one.
Respect.
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Not BA specific. I am ex military AAC. Almost 20 years in civil aviation.
I appreciate the age difference but l really struggle with the newest new joiners. Too many are self involved and haven't really been tested.
I was a green/brown student (AAC grades) and really worked hard to "pass out".
I cannot relate to the (snow flake) if l don't fly I don't get paid generation.
I cannot wait to retire. Sorry but that's it. 90 % of the population are arseholes.
Including me.
I appreciate the age difference but l really struggle with the newest new joiners. Too many are self involved and haven't really been tested.
I was a green/brown student (AAC grades) and really worked hard to "pass out".
I cannot relate to the (snow flake) if l don't fly I don't get paid generation.
I cannot wait to retire. Sorry but that's it. 90 % of the population are arseholes.
Including me.
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As others have said all manageged path is about is trying to tie in service exit dates with possible DEP slots, it’s not hand holding..
TBH the “now” in there has got me puzzled...hasn’t that pretty much always been the case? Certainly when I “transitioned” in the late 80s the likes of PPSC (remember them) was chocka with military non multi pilots doing all the theory stuff and then heading off to the schools to do their type rating/twin IR....
TBH the “now” in there has got me puzzled...hasn’t that pretty much always been the case? Certainly when I “transitioned” in the late 80s the likes of PPSC (remember them) was chocka with military non multi pilots doing all the theory stuff and then heading off to the schools to do their type rating/twin IR....
ME stream chaps with 1000+ command on a large multi crew type were entitled in accordance with CAA Lasors to be credited with an ATPL that could be maintained with the military Instrument rating. CAA regularly used to,come down and sit in the middle seat and observe an instrument rating for the credit. Only theory requirement back then was Air Law. This of course all went with the EASA regulatory changeover. some still did the full groundschool as many overseas operators in particular would not recognise the CAA accreditation of military multi experience. I to be honest am glad to have done the lot, with exception of MCC, as I feel it avoids any credibility issues.
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Sounds like hand holding to me. How many other pilots will BA 'hold their hands' in the same way to enable them to tie in their available dates with possible DEP slots? Maybe it is the non-military pilots who are being 'serviced' by BA, while the military pilots just have their hands held?