Is jetaifly belgium selection and interview waste of precious time and money ??
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doctoring
Worked for them a couple of years ago. Had like 96.7 hours in the last 28 days, and was rostered a SSH and back. Called them the day before to remind them of that, and asked what they wanted to do. e.g.. land after 3.3 hours or not do it. The day I was operating I called crewing again and mentioned the problem again since they had not gotten back to me. I was told to go ahead and do the flight and they would "doctor" some of my previous flights so I would still be within limits. My answer of course was NO WAY !!
This is just one tiny example of the way things work.
This is just one tiny example of the way things work.
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As always the truth is in the middle.
The work is hard, you spend a lot of time positioning and the money is on the low side, but there are worse places for a summercontract. I wouldn't call it commutable, you will spend a lot of money in tickets for a couple of days at home and it will increase fatigue at lot. The flying is nice and so are the crews. Equipent is in good shape and the occasional trip to Marocco is a welcome change.
To come back to the original question: If you are unable to fly within 300 ft of an assigned altitude and within 10 kts of an asinged speed or if you can't draw a basic version of the electric or hydraulic system, then YES it is a waste of money and time to go to the selection.
The work is hard, you spend a lot of time positioning and the money is on the low side, but there are worse places for a summercontract. I wouldn't call it commutable, you will spend a lot of money in tickets for a couple of days at home and it will increase fatigue at lot. The flying is nice and so are the crews. Equipent is in good shape and the occasional trip to Marocco is a welcome change.
To come back to the original question: If you are unable to fly within 300 ft of an assigned altitude and within 10 kts of an asinged speed or if you can't draw a basic version of the electric or hydraulic system, then YES it is a waste of money and time to go to the selection.
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Strange that all the negative childish comments come from those who failed. Well done Jetair, your selection process is evidently very good. I also admire your requirement for pilots to actually be able to fly!
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I have spent a few seasons there and am going back for another season. I briefly considered Norwegian, but hey why change something that works .. I like my agency ( Contractair ) the money is not bad. And I like to fly with a company that has high standards. So if you cannot get your act together to do a bit of raw data flying during the sim check then this is not the place for you anyway. After all should it come as such a suprise???
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Rude and Arrogant Tossers
I got through Day 1. Their poxy q and a session that passes for an interview... I was asked about Boeing Bulletins....! Specific to their airline !! Waste of time. And the arrogance of the interviewer. You'd think he'd invented flying and was the own one able to fly in the whole world. Out of 5 Captains (Ryanair, SAS, BMI baby, XL) I was the ONLY ONE invited to Day 2.....
Day 2 what a shambles. They had not even rostered an FO for the sim so the TRE called up some guy he knew who was doing his 737 Type rating. The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing. All raw data waste of time as he could not understand my MCP requests so I had to do it all myself and then get ripped in the debrief for doing it and flying the machine...!
It was an expensive mistake applying and I suspect there is some skulduggery as the woman who runs the agency is in cahoots with the Belgians..... as she is Belge too. I couldn't find out where the scam was though, or I'd let you all know.
Day 2 what a shambles. They had not even rostered an FO for the sim so the TRE called up some guy he knew who was doing his 737 Type rating. The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing. All raw data waste of time as he could not understand my MCP requests so I had to do it all myself and then get ripped in the debrief for doing it and flying the machine...!
It was an expensive mistake applying and I suspect there is some skulduggery as the woman who runs the agency is in cahoots with the Belgians..... as she is Belge too. I couldn't find out where the scam was though, or I'd let you all know.
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B.J (sorry)
It's not just Jetairfly that expects RAW data manual flying. Lionair sim
check is all manual flown on Full Rose both sides so no sneaking a look over at
the F/Os NAV Display. I also hear the Chinese expect the same - so WHATS YOUR
PROBLEM ?
I think most (old school) guys will go a long way with your statements about "raw data flying", "no F/D and F/D" (not really rocket science for any pilot worth its salt) Unfortunately, I think the AF447 accident is a valid example.
I think you should have left the Indonesians out of it as an example, I somehow doubt that this P2F scheme operator is to worried about raw data flying.
"300 hour ab-initio F/O's are good"
There are only two things that smell like fish, and one of them is fish.
This smells like fish...
Alle he manneke....
Last edited by Whip Whitaker; 26th Dec 2012 at 01:58.
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English or TRI-LINGUAL ?
'The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing'
THRUSH -- It is YOU who is embarrassing.
All the BELGIAN F/Os have to speak FLEMISH, FRENCH AND ENGLISH. You I presume ONLY speak ENGLISH ?
'The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing'
THRUSH -- It is YOU who is embarrassing.
All the BELGIAN F/Os have to speak FLEMISH, FRENCH AND ENGLISH. You I presume ONLY speak ENGLISH ?
I Have Control
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Same with Sobelair.
Sobelair were exactly the same, back in 2000. A few pleasant and helpful guys, but largely a crowd of self-considered "expert" operators who were unpleasant to share a crew room with. And they had the audacity to scribble "AMATEURS" on our folders, whilst we were operating flights for them out of BRU. Childish behaviour.
Strange really, but the Belgians are welcome to their own "ace of base" operations. We put it down to a national sense of insecurity in their own abilities.
Strange really, but the Belgians are welcome to their own "ace of base" operations. We put it down to a national sense of insecurity in their own abilities.
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I agree Roy. They must be fantastic fliers, with brains that work out the 3 times table quicker than anyone else on this planet. Amazing and other superlative words just cannot describe how good they are. Much better than all of us.... But maybe not.
Maybe just a national "small man syndrome...."!
Maybe just a national "small man syndrome...."!
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I always have a good laugh reading these threads.
The British think they invented threat and error management. The Belgians believe they could fly before the birds. The French are the kings of the skies. Don't get in the cockpit with an Italian. Beware of ex-fighter pilots. And so on and so forth. All of that interluded by cries and moans of people who failed to pass a selection for this or that airline and now blame it on the local culture.
As usual you'll find extremes on both sides in these discussions. Whereas the truth, as always, sits somewhere in the middle. I believe Jetairfly is no exception to that rule.
The British think they invented threat and error management. The Belgians believe they could fly before the birds. The French are the kings of the skies. Don't get in the cockpit with an Italian. Beware of ex-fighter pilots. And so on and so forth. All of that interluded by cries and moans of people who failed to pass a selection for this or that airline and now blame it on the local culture.
As usual you'll find extremes on both sides in these discussions. Whereas the truth, as always, sits somewhere in the middle. I believe Jetairfly is no exception to that rule.
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This critisism of Belgian companies, their selection process and pilots is getting tiresome.
Like it or not, Belgian pilots have a very good reputation Worldwide.
Yes, we are proud of that, Yes, we do work hard in keeping that reputation by operating to the highest standards day in day out, trying to train new collegues to the standards that we were trained and desperately trying to keep,our Profession a profession to be proud of in this day and age of declining standards and money trains all...
Yes, we love flying, that means like a plane has been designed, to be flown raw data. all other helps and automatics are just that: A help when in need. in normal ops. This should not be the case or you simply do not belong in the cockpit of an airliner.
BUT...we are NOT cowboys of the Air. We do know our systems, philosophy behind the systems ( very important, even more so than just being able to draw a schematic), and this includes the use of all automatics and its correct operation and manipulation.
Arrogant Belgians?! In my whole career, I started in 1998 with a now defunct National Airline, the only arrogant collegues I have met were...British and German, with especially the Brits having a superiority complex while their common sense was totally absent in procedures, mindset and behaviour. luckily, most British collegues I have had the pleasure flying with were and are great airmen/women and a joy to spend time with
No one is without mistakes, and we all screw up from time to time, including during assessments. I for one failed also the Jetairfly sim. When they started up their ops. it was my own stupidity though, not Jetairfly
Like it or not, Belgian pilots have a very good reputation Worldwide.
Yes, we are proud of that, Yes, we do work hard in keeping that reputation by operating to the highest standards day in day out, trying to train new collegues to the standards that we were trained and desperately trying to keep,our Profession a profession to be proud of in this day and age of declining standards and money trains all...
Yes, we love flying, that means like a plane has been designed, to be flown raw data. all other helps and automatics are just that: A help when in need. in normal ops. This should not be the case or you simply do not belong in the cockpit of an airliner.
BUT...we are NOT cowboys of the Air. We do know our systems, philosophy behind the systems ( very important, even more so than just being able to draw a schematic), and this includes the use of all automatics and its correct operation and manipulation.
Arrogant Belgians?! In my whole career, I started in 1998 with a now defunct National Airline, the only arrogant collegues I have met were...British and German, with especially the Brits having a superiority complex while their common sense was totally absent in procedures, mindset and behaviour. luckily, most British collegues I have had the pleasure flying with were and are great airmen/women and a joy to spend time with
No one is without mistakes, and we all screw up from time to time, including during assessments. I for one failed also the Jetairfly sim. When they started up their ops. it was my own stupidity though, not Jetairfly
I have to come to the defence of my Belgian colleagues. I spent about 10 years teaching them and they came in all shapes from youngsters with about 250 hours straight out of the SABENA academy right up to old hairys like myself. Very, very few them were not up to the mark. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they were generally a better proposition than their British colleagues.
One noticeable difference was that the Belgian students devoured manuals whereas the Brits learned the minimum possible and then used the manual as a door stop!
One of my friends has just started at Jetair. Mind you, he is a bloody good operator and he speaks fluent English, French and Flemish and has a good knowledge of German.
One noticeable difference was that the Belgian students devoured manuals whereas the Brits learned the minimum possible and then used the manual as a door stop!
One of my friends has just started at Jetair. Mind you, he is a bloody good operator and he speaks fluent English, French and Flemish and has a good knowledge of German.
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I don't think that my Jetfly interview was much different to a number of others I have done, at least they after 13,000 hours of accident free flying I was not insulted with the Compass test like some I could mention !
On the whole I found them very polite and professional, the technical interview was realistic for the type and the sim was without drama.
At no time did I find the unpleasant attitude that some above have mentioned.
I decided to take another job that better suited my situation but I can see no reason that turning up for the interview is a waste of time & money of you are looking for a job.
On the whole I found them very polite and professional, the technical interview was realistic for the type and the sim was without drama.
At no time did I find the unpleasant attitude that some above have mentioned.
I decided to take another job that better suited my situation but I can see no reason that turning up for the interview is a waste of time & money of you are looking for a job.
Last edited by A and C; 7th Feb 2013 at 13:59.
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desperate,
I think I'd take issue that modern airliners are designed to be flown raw data, with the automatics a help in time of need. As I think would Boeing and airbus.
Sim rides should be representative of normal ops , not some exercise in who has the biggest balls.
I think I'd take issue that modern airliners are designed to be flown raw data, with the automatics a help in time of need. As I think would Boeing and airbus.
Sim rides should be representative of normal ops , not some exercise in who has the biggest balls.
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Being one of those Thomson Airways pilots who spent time some 6 months at Jetairfly. Here is my take on the airline.
Good Points-
Very friendly pilots and cabin crew.
Food was the best I have had on a plane.
Very relaxed atmosphere at work and while staying at the local accommodation.
Good career structure for new pilots, working in ops and flying.
Use of technology for pilots.
Other points-
At the time they did not "position" crew to outstations but called it Travelling time. Result, take away up to 3 hours duty on a long 3 sector day and you find yourself off duty and resting in a taxi back to Brussels with less than minimum rest for next flight. Part A and Rostering manual was very clear positioning should be rostered. But through fear of loosing their job (words from trainers and other pilots) and because of no union representation they could not change the system. Although some lost out when they did change the system after our complaints to a two base "egg concept" the vast majority gained.
Telling pilot that after 3 hours on duty trying to get tech aircraft back to base, was told they were off duty when they arrived in TFS so could come back to base hours earlier than was legally allowed.
Very competent low hour second officers constantly hand flying instrument approaches and increasing PM workload and trained in the use of gear down and flap one at 240kts so that they could "get a visual approach" No planning of descent for a probable visual approach. Resulted in many unstable approaches. Up to 5% of all approaches were unstable and landing without going around in a two month period. I hand fly myself and conduct visual approaches when appropriate but would only use gear down at such speeds if my options were limited and not as an SOP.
Management who emailed to all pilots that "contractors and Thomson pilots should not talk to their fellow pilots about other airlines", through fear that the pilot workforce might unite I assume.
Use of blank days (anytime not on day off, rest or duty) and a whole week on blank used for standby cover from about 7am to 10pm. So you could have been up all day then the company call you for a long night flight. Part A manual contradicted company "advice" regarding blank days.
One of our F/O's told he had passed initial sim ride then after 1-2 months wait for new aircraft to arrive was told he had in fact failed sim!
Working for a company which sticks to the Part A, has good terms and conditions and has union representation I am in a privileged position. I just hope that Jetairfly has matured from being a small charter carrier making its way in the competitive airline world to being a company that respects its workforce and abides by its agreed FTL's.
Good Points-
Very friendly pilots and cabin crew.
Food was the best I have had on a plane.
Very relaxed atmosphere at work and while staying at the local accommodation.
Good career structure for new pilots, working in ops and flying.
Use of technology for pilots.
Other points-
At the time they did not "position" crew to outstations but called it Travelling time. Result, take away up to 3 hours duty on a long 3 sector day and you find yourself off duty and resting in a taxi back to Brussels with less than minimum rest for next flight. Part A and Rostering manual was very clear positioning should be rostered. But through fear of loosing their job (words from trainers and other pilots) and because of no union representation they could not change the system. Although some lost out when they did change the system after our complaints to a two base "egg concept" the vast majority gained.
Telling pilot that after 3 hours on duty trying to get tech aircraft back to base, was told they were off duty when they arrived in TFS so could come back to base hours earlier than was legally allowed.
Very competent low hour second officers constantly hand flying instrument approaches and increasing PM workload and trained in the use of gear down and flap one at 240kts so that they could "get a visual approach" No planning of descent for a probable visual approach. Resulted in many unstable approaches. Up to 5% of all approaches were unstable and landing without going around in a two month period. I hand fly myself and conduct visual approaches when appropriate but would only use gear down at such speeds if my options were limited and not as an SOP.
Management who emailed to all pilots that "contractors and Thomson pilots should not talk to their fellow pilots about other airlines", through fear that the pilot workforce might unite I assume.
Use of blank days (anytime not on day off, rest or duty) and a whole week on blank used for standby cover from about 7am to 10pm. So you could have been up all day then the company call you for a long night flight. Part A manual contradicted company "advice" regarding blank days.
One of our F/O's told he had passed initial sim ride then after 1-2 months wait for new aircraft to arrive was told he had in fact failed sim!
Working for a company which sticks to the Part A, has good terms and conditions and has union representation I am in a privileged position. I just hope that Jetairfly has matured from being a small charter carrier making its way in the competitive airline world to being a company that respects its workforce and abides by its agreed FTL's.
Last edited by orions123; 13th Feb 2013 at 10:04.