Is jetaifly belgium selection and interview waste of precious time and money ??
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Is jetaifly belgium selection and interview waste of precious time and money ??
This week was informed about yet another experienced,excellent flying, high standard B737 JAA Captain that 'failed' the Jet Air fly Belgium 'selections'
so many fine pilots I know who have consistenly told the same story:waste of time and money, hardly a soul passes their 'tests'
what is going on out there?It is time interested Captains are warned???
so many fine pilots I know who have consistenly told the same story:waste of time and money, hardly a soul passes their 'tests'
what is going on out there?It is time interested Captains are warned???
Last edited by cupoftea; 20th Dec 2012 at 19:38.
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Did a selection there a few years back. Everything paid from my side (of course) flts hotac transport. . the normal (so it seems these days)
The agency, lets call them Contract - Air , didn't mention the T's & C's , or at least the bit about the Bond (as I was rated with 11,000 + hrs on type, I may have told them to take a jump even if I had passed)
1st part of the assessment was an interview with a "non-person" from HR & a hideous Flemish Dyke , who is apparently in some position in the training Dept. Others were more fortunate to have "her" replaced by the C.P. who I am told is old-school charming.
Having not flown for nearly 1 year my tech knowledge was perhaps a "little rusty", so, having received a suitably vague answer to her question, the Dykes response was to ask an even deeper Q on the same system.
Needless to say I failed, and was not invited to Day 2, which was. . . . . I am told by those who subjected themselves to it, a typical Belgian
( Raw Data of course) "Fail Fest" . . . .how many consecutive & totally unrelated failures can we throw at you before you lose the thread.
So, waste of time ? probably not, but they are living in some Fouga Magister inspired era where selection is concerned. I am led to believe the actual job is not TOO bad, but does involve a fair bit of dicking around in Taxis between the usual Belgian hot-spots of Liege/Ostend/Charleroi & the jewel in the crown Brussels.
Oh, and take care that your BRU based contract doesn't involve the odd secondment (if not indeed the whole damn contract ) to Jet4You, based in some Souk somewhere South of Malaga.
The agency, lets call them Contract - Air , didn't mention the T's & C's , or at least the bit about the Bond (as I was rated with 11,000 + hrs on type, I may have told them to take a jump even if I had passed)
1st part of the assessment was an interview with a "non-person" from HR & a hideous Flemish Dyke , who is apparently in some position in the training Dept. Others were more fortunate to have "her" replaced by the C.P. who I am told is old-school charming.
Having not flown for nearly 1 year my tech knowledge was perhaps a "little rusty", so, having received a suitably vague answer to her question, the Dykes response was to ask an even deeper Q on the same system.
Needless to say I failed, and was not invited to Day 2, which was. . . . . I am told by those who subjected themselves to it, a typical Belgian
( Raw Data of course) "Fail Fest" . . . .how many consecutive & totally unrelated failures can we throw at you before you lose the thread.
So, waste of time ? probably not, but they are living in some Fouga Magister inspired era where selection is concerned. I am led to believe the actual job is not TOO bad, but does involve a fair bit of dicking around in Taxis between the usual Belgian hot-spots of Liege/Ostend/Charleroi & the jewel in the crown Brussels.
Oh, and take care that your BRU based contract doesn't involve the odd secondment (if not indeed the whole damn contract ) to Jet4You, based in some Souk somewhere South of Malaga.
Last edited by captplaystation; 20th Dec 2012 at 20:07.
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well the belgians
are an acquired taste.The problem is they think theyre the only ones who can fly.I passed their poxy little selection and turned them down.Arrogant SOB's.Besides they dont want pilots..they want stepford automatons.
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Been there a couple of years ago for a selection. First theoretical test which was pretty hard then the interview. Ive never met such a arrogants pr@cks before, even on other interviews. Luckily i failed the test because i did not want to work for those ....... It is only that particular company i m not going to apply ever again even if im on the dole.
If you go there, im not sure if you get an belgian contract or if u can join as contractor. Taxes in belgium are really high.
Good luck
If you go there, im not sure if you get an belgian contract or if u can join as contractor. Taxes in belgium are really high.
Good luck
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Just to add a little balance.
I have been flying for a Belgian Operation for the last 5 years and have been made extremely welcome and made many great friends. Wonderful bunch of straight talking friendly people. They work hard and play hard. The chaps I fly with are Very competent in all respects.
I can't comment specifically on Jetairfly Tui but the remarks above are not aligned with my experiences of Belgium.
I have been flying for a Belgian Operation for the last 5 years and have been made extremely welcome and made many great friends. Wonderful bunch of straight talking friendly people. They work hard and play hard. The chaps I fly with are Very competent in all respects.
I can't comment specifically on Jetairfly Tui but the remarks above are not aligned with my experiences of Belgium.
Last edited by BigNumber; 21st Dec 2012 at 10:54.
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Did an interview last year. After tech questions with that flemish guy he asks me:
'And now you are flying into a destination where you and your co-pilot are flying first time and the weather is overcast at 1000ft. The first officer wants to disconnect all automatics and fly a raw data approach from 10000 ft. What would you do? Would you allow him to do it?'
However I tried to tell him that in the interest of safety it will be better to fly the automatics for increased capacity and monitoring, and he can fly raw data on a different, better day, it was not the corret answer!
So didn't made it to the second day where the sim was a stick and rudder exercise, trying to fly the 738 for 2 hours on raw data and single engine and systems!
No Thanks!!!!! They can have it their Belgian or Flemish way on their own!!
'And now you are flying into a destination where you and your co-pilot are flying first time and the weather is overcast at 1000ft. The first officer wants to disconnect all automatics and fly a raw data approach from 10000 ft. What would you do? Would you allow him to do it?'
However I tried to tell him that in the interest of safety it will be better to fly the automatics for increased capacity and monitoring, and he can fly raw data on a different, better day, it was not the corret answer!
So didn't made it to the second day where the sim was a stick and rudder exercise, trying to fly the 738 for 2 hours on raw data and single engine and systems!
No Thanks!!!!! They can have it their Belgian or Flemish way on their own!!
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The 'right stuff' is necessary on the flight deck; but it is not necessary to prove you have the right stuff all the time. Airmanship decides when is appropriate. Attempting to prove it at the wrong time is plain stupid, and if the Flt Ops dept asks you to do otherwise then politely refuse and affirm your rank and responsibility as commander.
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If I was you guys I would AVOID going there ! I'm working for an other Belgian company not to mention the biggest in Brussels.
And as many of you mentioned it, they are VERY arrogant. At the crew entrance/security they look at you from top to bottom and they never say "hello" or never reply when you say "hello", even in flemish...
A very good friend of mine work there and he cannot stand being there anymore ! He will quit as soon as one company in the sandpit call him for the rest of the interview and hopefully succeed. There sim sessions for OPC/LPC are always HUGE stress for the crew and the Training Manager is one crazy Napoleon syndrome guy and the stooge of the DFO, the infamous Berger.
In the summer season as contract pilot you will fly like Asses ! Expect triangle in Egypt, Morocco with flight times touching the 100hrs a month and you'll be parked in some Verac Flats in Zaventem village where there is almost nothing to do ! Unless you have a car you will get BORED very fast !
My advice : Go if you have nothing. You can still have some good time with some crew (most probably with the French speaking guys/gals : only 5% of the total maybe), the girls are young and hot (don't know if open for anything tough ;-) ). And the destinations are nice, especially in the greek islands etc...
If you have a job STAY there until you have an other (better) opportunity.
And as many of you mentioned it, they are VERY arrogant. At the crew entrance/security they look at you from top to bottom and they never say "hello" or never reply when you say "hello", even in flemish...
A very good friend of mine work there and he cannot stand being there anymore ! He will quit as soon as one company in the sandpit call him for the rest of the interview and hopefully succeed. There sim sessions for OPC/LPC are always HUGE stress for the crew and the Training Manager is one crazy Napoleon syndrome guy and the stooge of the DFO, the infamous Berger.
In the summer season as contract pilot you will fly like Asses ! Expect triangle in Egypt, Morocco with flight times touching the 100hrs a month and you'll be parked in some Verac Flats in Zaventem village where there is almost nothing to do ! Unless you have a car you will get BORED very fast !
My advice : Go if you have nothing. You can still have some good time with some crew (most probably with the French speaking guys/gals : only 5% of the total maybe), the girls are young and hot (don't know if open for anything tough ;-) ). And the destinations are nice, especially in the greek islands etc...
If you have a job STAY there until you have an other (better) opportunity.
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I flew for Jetairfly this year on a 7 month contract as a B737NG Captain (Parc contract) and it was a good experience.
Regarding the pre-employment interview, I found the HR director, a very pleasant lady named Sophie, and the technical/Fleet Captain to both be polite, pleasant and professional. No arrogance whatsoever.
The pre-employment sim evaluation - in a B737-800 - lasted about 1.5 hours and was entirely hand flown and without flight director. The evaluator was a TRE from Jetairfly's fleet office. He, like virtually all of the management at Jetairfly, is ex-Sabena/Sobelair. The evaluation did not involve multiple failures, nor was it exceptionally stressful. It would be fair to say that JAF is interested in your raw flying skills and ability to "chew gum and walk". But, to be clear, the TRE was friendly and made the evaluation a comfortable experience.
The training at JAF is top notch. As with transitioning to any new airline, it is best to absorb and accept their procedures. I found everyone I came across to be very helpful in assisting me through the OCC process.
I had very little reason to hang out in the Fleet Office, however when I had a need or request, I found the management would make a genuine effort to assist. Further, they never second guessed my decisions made as a commander, and were supportive.
The First Officers, overall, are well trained, and many are highly experienced, flying both the 737NG and 767 fleets. The cockpit environment at JAF was very relaxed. The cabin crew are young and attractive - certainly the most attractive CC I've ever worked with - and are trained to a high standard.
The JAF flying has been accurately described in this thread. It's interesting and involves frequent non-precision or visual approaches to mediterranean island airports. Occasionally I had long days. At different times, I bumped up against the legal maximum - 100hrs/28 days - and found it to be exhausting.
Perhaps every 6 weeks, one will be rostered for a Morocco "mission" lasting 5-7 days. I found these assignments to be enjoyable. We stayed in 5* accommodation - all inclusive of food and drink - and were provided with 80euro/day per diem in addition. The layovers are Marrakech, Agadir, Casablanca, and Paris/Orly. If you prefer not to fly a "mission", as a contractor, you can advise crew scheduling.
Regarding time off, JAF was very good scheduling me for reasonable blocks of time off - up to 5 days consecutively - which allowed my family to have some small vacations during the summer. Let me add, however, that it would be nearly impossible to commute to the JAF contract. You really need to live locally or in the region.
As for the JAF provided accommodation, I asked JAF for an allowance rather than accept the airport vicinity apartments since I'd have my family with me. JAF kindly agreed and I found very good accommodation in Central Brussels. Brussels, by the way, is a fantastic city in every way except the weather.
After my experience, what would I want changed? If JAF had a fixed roster, if the number of monthly flying hours were moderated, and if the hourly pay rate were tweaked up to match Brookfield/Ryanair, then JAF would be one of the top pilot jobs in Europe, hands down.
I would recommend the JAF contract to others. Should the impending merger at my legacy US airline go poorly, I would certainly consider going back myself.
Regarding the pre-employment interview, I found the HR director, a very pleasant lady named Sophie, and the technical/Fleet Captain to both be polite, pleasant and professional. No arrogance whatsoever.
The pre-employment sim evaluation - in a B737-800 - lasted about 1.5 hours and was entirely hand flown and without flight director. The evaluator was a TRE from Jetairfly's fleet office. He, like virtually all of the management at Jetairfly, is ex-Sabena/Sobelair. The evaluation did not involve multiple failures, nor was it exceptionally stressful. It would be fair to say that JAF is interested in your raw flying skills and ability to "chew gum and walk". But, to be clear, the TRE was friendly and made the evaluation a comfortable experience.
The training at JAF is top notch. As with transitioning to any new airline, it is best to absorb and accept their procedures. I found everyone I came across to be very helpful in assisting me through the OCC process.
I had very little reason to hang out in the Fleet Office, however when I had a need or request, I found the management would make a genuine effort to assist. Further, they never second guessed my decisions made as a commander, and were supportive.
The First Officers, overall, are well trained, and many are highly experienced, flying both the 737NG and 767 fleets. The cockpit environment at JAF was very relaxed. The cabin crew are young and attractive - certainly the most attractive CC I've ever worked with - and are trained to a high standard.
The JAF flying has been accurately described in this thread. It's interesting and involves frequent non-precision or visual approaches to mediterranean island airports. Occasionally I had long days. At different times, I bumped up against the legal maximum - 100hrs/28 days - and found it to be exhausting.
Perhaps every 6 weeks, one will be rostered for a Morocco "mission" lasting 5-7 days. I found these assignments to be enjoyable. We stayed in 5* accommodation - all inclusive of food and drink - and were provided with 80euro/day per diem in addition. The layovers are Marrakech, Agadir, Casablanca, and Paris/Orly. If you prefer not to fly a "mission", as a contractor, you can advise crew scheduling.
Regarding time off, JAF was very good scheduling me for reasonable blocks of time off - up to 5 days consecutively - which allowed my family to have some small vacations during the summer. Let me add, however, that it would be nearly impossible to commute to the JAF contract. You really need to live locally or in the region.
As for the JAF provided accommodation, I asked JAF for an allowance rather than accept the airport vicinity apartments since I'd have my family with me. JAF kindly agreed and I found very good accommodation in Central Brussels. Brussels, by the way, is a fantastic city in every way except the weather.
After my experience, what would I want changed? If JAF had a fixed roster, if the number of monthly flying hours were moderated, and if the hourly pay rate were tweaked up to match Brookfield/Ryanair, then JAF would be one of the top pilot jobs in Europe, hands down.
I would recommend the JAF contract to others. Should the impending merger at my legacy US airline go poorly, I would certainly consider going back myself.
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If you think about applying as a B737 skipper it probably helps if you mention that you are flying a Pitts or F16 in your free time....
I agree that some hot shots are running the show but hey.... tell me a similar company in Europe where there aren't any? I do know several FO's who left for greener pastures as they were fed up with Mr. F.S.
They only want aces who can fly a single engine ILS inverted.......remember, the go around is a bit different.
Poor wages for a fighter ace.
Indeed, most of the Belgium companies require a lot of raw data handflying in their sim gradings. Although I do not mind, it can be over the top from time to time. All considering, what is wrong requiring it during a screening?
Just my experience.
I agree that some hot shots are running the show but hey.... tell me a similar company in Europe where there aren't any? I do know several FO's who left for greener pastures as they were fed up with Mr. F.S.They only want aces who can fly a single engine ILS inverted.......remember, the go around is a bit different.
Poor wages for a fighter ace.
Indeed, most of the Belgium companies require a lot of raw data handflying in their sim gradings. Although I do not mind, it can be over the top from time to time. All considering, what is wrong requiring it during a screening?
Just my experience.
Last edited by el caballero rojo; 25th Dec 2012 at 18:57. Reason: deleted most. Generalized to much. Based on only two experiences
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And as many of you mentioned it, they are VERY arrogant. At the crew entrance/security they look at you from top to bottom and they never say "hello" or never reply when you say "hello", even in flemish...
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Fail
That is certainly how I found her, and feedback I had from successful applicants suggests I wasn't 100% wrong.
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KMP,
Couldn't give a Damn whether she preferred meat or fish, in fact I was told she was actually with a "significant other" of the opposite sex, perhaps someone visually challenged
My somewhat ungenerous uncomplimentary description is more related to how I found her, and her distinctly unfeminine/ harsh / man disguised as woman / aura, along with a lack of much empathy in the sphere of human contact. I wasn't too happy to fail the assessment, but I think I am more than capable of expressing an opinion without sour grapes, even if I had passed, I doubt I could have warmed to her.
Like I said, I found her hideous, that may be a reflection on me indeed, or maybe just a reflection on the fact that I prefer my women , to be, well . . . . . women.
You can take this as you wish ,& label ME whatever you like, sexist/ jurassic . . etc , I can assure you I will not take offence, even if some is intended as you are, like me, entitled to your opinion, and finally, that is all we are posting here is it not ? . . our opinions.
Couldn't give a Damn whether she preferred meat or fish, in fact I was told she was actually with a "significant other" of the opposite sex, perhaps someone visually challenged
My somewhat ungenerous uncomplimentary description is more related to how I found her, and her distinctly unfeminine/ harsh / man disguised as woman / aura, along with a lack of much empathy in the sphere of human contact. I wasn't too happy to fail the assessment, but I think I am more than capable of expressing an opinion without sour grapes, even if I had passed, I doubt I could have warmed to her.
Like I said, I found her hideous, that may be a reflection on me indeed, or maybe just a reflection on the fact that I prefer my women , to be, well . . . . . women.
You can take this as you wish ,& label ME whatever you like, sexist/ jurassic . . etc , I can assure you I will not take offence, even if some is intended
as you are, like me, entitled to your opinion, and finally, that is all we are posting here is it not ? . . our opinions.
Last edited by captplaystation; 24th Dec 2012 at 11:51.
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csn BEAUTY
CATPLAYSTATION - Do you do anything else other than winge/grumble/snipe/moan/bitch etc etc at every little entry on PPRUNE?
I have been at Jetairfly a few years now and ITS A GREAT JOB. Others have been there longer than me and THEY KEEP COMING BACK - well the GOOD ones are INVITED BACK. Yes some of the trips are long - but not as long as a UK operator doing a day return to the Red Sea, or a Scandanavian operator doing a Canary Is day return. They are like ALL IT Charter operators ie. in the summer silly season WORK HARD. The European based Capts get rostered so they get two 3-4 day breaks at home per month so it IS COMMUTABLE.
What is the problem with that ?
- oh I forgot -- YOU expect the world to owe you a living? YOU are not the Almighty- YOU are just a 'Bus driver'- perhaps not -- how could you have time to fly as you seem to spend all day and night making posts on PPRUNE -- what is the tally now - 2401??????
Having you in the Verac Apts moaning all summer would spoil the great BBQs that Kiwi farmer organises. A few years back we had some loan pilots from Thomson. Talk about spoil the fun!! You should join them as your attitudes are the same. The seasons with the ex Sterling pilots were great. Bike trips all over beautiful Belgium - again organised by that bloody farmer - not to mention the kayak trips down a few rivers, or the Beer tasting afternoons - again on bikes, to return 'home' to the Veracs to find our colleagues ready with a BBQ - and maybe some 'beauties' for us to rest our weary eyes upon and reminisce of days gone by. By the way, that farmer comes to BRU as he says 'for a holiday'. During our winter (his summer) he goes downunder and works 12-14hrs days 7 days/week.
This year has been a little different due to Jet4You - the Morrocan operation being absorbed back into JAF. This has given the contract Capts the opportunity to have 3-6 day trips to Morrocco. Some patterns have been a little 'gypsy' in having to pack bags every day or two, while others have been absolutley fabulous. As said in a previous post - 5star, beach side full board PLUS euro80 per day. How much more do YOU want.?
Now - it is a known FACT that some Belgian companies like to demonstrate or 'maintain' their basic hand flying skills. Yes, maunal flying, no F/Ds, no A/T is examined and expected of crews to occassionally do on the line. The F/Os - even those spotty 300hr ab-initio F/Os are good- probably better than YOU. Perhaps if Air France had the same attitude toward manual flying skills then AF447 would have arrived in Paris?
It's not just Jetairfly that expects RAW data manual flying. Lionair sim check is all manual flown on Full Rose both sides so no sneaking a look over at the F/Os NAV Display. I also hear the Chinese expect the same - so WHATS YOUR PROBLEM ?
BEAUTY 4MW - Clear for Take- Off
I have been at Jetairfly a few years now and ITS A GREAT JOB. Others have been there longer than me and THEY KEEP COMING BACK - well the GOOD ones are INVITED BACK. Yes some of the trips are long - but not as long as a UK operator doing a day return to the Red Sea, or a Scandanavian operator doing a Canary Is day return. They are like ALL IT Charter operators ie. in the summer silly season WORK HARD. The European based Capts get rostered so they get two 3-4 day breaks at home per month so it IS COMMUTABLE.
What is the problem with that ?
- oh I forgot -- YOU expect the world to owe you a living? YOU are not the Almighty- YOU are just a 'Bus driver'- perhaps not -- how could you have time to fly as you seem to spend all day and night making posts on PPRUNE -- what is the tally now - 2401??????
Having you in the Verac Apts moaning all summer would spoil the great BBQs that Kiwi farmer organises. A few years back we had some loan pilots from Thomson. Talk about spoil the fun!! You should join them as your attitudes are the same. The seasons with the ex Sterling pilots were great. Bike trips all over beautiful Belgium - again organised by that bloody farmer - not to mention the kayak trips down a few rivers, or the Beer tasting afternoons - again on bikes, to return 'home' to the Veracs to find our colleagues ready with a BBQ - and maybe some 'beauties' for us to rest our weary eyes upon and reminisce of days gone by. By the way, that farmer comes to BRU as he says 'for a holiday'. During our winter (his summer) he goes downunder and works 12-14hrs days 7 days/week.
This year has been a little different due to Jet4You - the Morrocan operation being absorbed back into JAF. This has given the contract Capts the opportunity to have 3-6 day trips to Morrocco. Some patterns have been a little 'gypsy' in having to pack bags every day or two, while others have been absolutley fabulous. As said in a previous post - 5star, beach side full board PLUS euro80 per day. How much more do YOU want.?
Now - it is a known FACT that some Belgian companies like to demonstrate or 'maintain' their basic hand flying skills. Yes, maunal flying, no F/Ds, no A/T is examined and expected of crews to occassionally do on the line. The F/Os - even those spotty 300hr ab-initio F/Os are good- probably better than YOU. Perhaps if Air France had the same attitude toward manual flying skills then AF447 would have arrived in Paris?
It's not just Jetairfly that expects RAW data manual flying. Lionair sim check is all manual flown on Full Rose both sides so no sneaking a look over at the F/Os NAV Display. I also hear the Chinese expect the same - so WHATS YOUR PROBLEM ?
BEAUTY 4MW - Clear for Take- Off
