Norwegian B737 Pilot selection (Updated)

[Direct Bondi]

As a low hour pilot your career prospects are better with a direct employment contract at Ryanair - as opposed to agency employment and rented temporarily to a Norwegian Group airline.

Also, “tailor made” treatment is not something new at Norwegian. Ever since the airline ceased employing pilots directly and temporarily rent them system-wide from service provider agencies, the airline has tailor made its treatment of individuals, groups and bases. Norwegian can do this because the airline is not party to any employment contracts or collective agreements with its pilots.

[dcoded]

Could some one working in Norwegian confirm the following info:

"As of January 2018 staff travel is now on both long and short haul fleets for both 73 and 78 crews. ID90 Travel and free S2 commuting ticket. (S2 higher priority than ID and valid for any avail pax/crew seat)"

Taken form PPJN.

ID90 travel? So you can travel on other carriers networks aswell, besides Norwegians network?
Which other carriers are included?

Regarding the "S2 Commuting ticket"
This is something which can be used to position to the Base if you live some place else?
And its indeed free and confirmed?

Thanks

[FRogge]

It’s ID90 on Norwegians own routes only, both long- and short haul now. That includes family members and a few selected friends that can use ID90. S2 is for commuting between base and home.

Bondi, as far as I know RYR only offers “self employed through Irish ltd. company” contracts for low timers/cadets.

Since there is still plenty of RYR pilots applying for NAX, I think it might be a while before they start again hiring “cadets”. This is just the way I see it. I hope I’m wrong.

[aerodestination]

Norwegian hired a lot of cadets about 1.5 years ago. At that time there were plenty of 737 rated pilots who were probably willing to join Norwegian too. So I was wondering the same thing why they only hire 737 Type rated at the moment.

[dcoded]

Hello,

Before proceeding with my application in Norwegian I have some general questions/concerns, I am applying to one of their Nordic bases.

Everyone in Norwegian receives a seniority number when they start, and this seniority number is "valid" in the different branches of Norwegian, such as Short Haul, Long haul etc, Is this Correct?

How many "branches" of Norwegian Exist? I know there is Short Haul, and Long Haul, But as I understand, the Nordic Shourt Haul is a seperate entity?

When it comes to the different AOCs, as far as I know, there is one
Irish AOC (Shourt haul, Long haul)
Brittish AOC (Long haul?)
Norwegian AOC (Short haul, and I am pretty sure i've seen some LN registered 787s)

How does it work, for example, if I receive employment in OSL I will then be employed in PSN (Pilot Services Norway), Will I then ONLY fly LN registered aircraft (Norwegian AOC)?

As I understand, there is an opportunity for base bidding 2 times per year, and this is based on your seniority.
Let's say I receive OSL base, and then 6 months later there is a base bidding open, and many people with high seniority bids for OSL from other bases, will I then be "pushed out" and receve a new employment in any other vacant base?

I remember reading few years back that during Winter time people were "asked" to take unpaid leaves to cover for the fact there were much less flying during winter.
Did this apply to people employed in all bases, was it valid for all type of employees? (Contractors, core)

Finally, I have heard that there is no such "thing" as Norwegian Core anymore?
PSN (Pilot services norway) is not in fact Norwegian Core, am I correct in this assumption?

Sorry to bother you with all these questions.
But I rather find them out here than to waste the recruiters time and apply for something I am not completely sure of.

Thank you very much.

[november.sierra]

1. Your seniority is not so much based on what your staff number is, but the date you officially join the company, i.e. your first day of ground school, and it is this date that guarantees your seniority. This applies to all aspects of the company irrespective of fleet or AOC, so yes your assumption is correct.

2. There are no different branches apart from short haul / long haul. The only 'branches' are the different AOC's:

NAS/NAN -> B737 in Norway and Arlanda, B787.
NAI -> B738 & Max for all European bases, CPH and B737 US & French Caribbean bases.
NUK -> B737 & B787 based LGW.
NAA -> Argentina, which you can only apply for if you have an Argentinian passport.

3. If you are employed in OSL your employer will be PSN. As such, you will only be flying LN- registered aircraft. Likewise, if you're based in ARN, you will fly LN- aircraft, the exception is CPH which is part of the NAI AOC.

4. Once you join you will be given a training base followed by a release base, which you keep until the next base bidding. If you then bid for your preferred base and get it as your permanent base you cannot be kicked out from that base in favour of a more senior pilot. If however the base has a cut in production and people need to be moved, it's a case of LIFO, strictly according to the MSL.

5. The winter layoffs happened in 2014 where the last 60 on the MSL were placed on unpaid leave irrespective of base, seniority being the determining factor. Presently it doesn't look like this will happen again but if it were to happen again, then the MSL applies as above in point 4).

6. The old K-area contract as it was called then, which people refer to as core is not the holy grail anymore that it once was. All pilots are now agency employees, in the Scandinavian bases through Pilot Services Norway/Sweden/Denmark, and elsewhere through OSM. So no, 'core' doesn't exist anymore as such, but there has been no change in T&C's, meaning that if you're employed in Scandinavia, it will be on 'core' T&C's, but not employed by Norwegian but a PSx company.

I hope this clears up some of the questions.

[skerry]

Is it 1st April? Just reading about a new low cost carrier set up in Argentina to compete against Norwegian, named Flybondi! Is someone taking the piss or has our friend put his money where his mouth is?

[Jonnyknoxville]

So who are NAR then ?

[dcoded]

november.sierra:


I reallty thank you for the effort you took in answering my questions!
Highly appreciated!

Just one follow up question, refering to release base / Training base:

So If I apply for one of the Nordic bases, I still can end up having the release in ex Malaga, then to have the training base in Barcelona?
And only after that, I can bid for ex Oslo?
Or will I be given OSL directly, and then be "loaned" out to the other bases for training?

One thing that strikes me then, is, like you mentioned, Norway bases, and Stockholm (ARN) have LN reg, under Norwegian AOC.
How can I then be on "loan" to the Irish AOC? Since it's another AOC you need to have a conversion course, line training and so on.

Thanks!

[EIFFS]

Dcoded

If you move between any AOC you will need to do an AOC 2 AOC conversion, this is straight forward as the AOC are now very similar and it is an objective to be able to fly on the various AOC seemlessly in the future.

You will do your training wherever the training capacity exists, so yes you could be released to line then back in the sim to do an AOC change followed by a further line check, not ideal for either party I know, but them is the rules.

[november.sierra]

Yes, correct! If you apply for a position in Scandinavia and get it, you won't be moved to a European base, but as stated, your line training might be conducted under a different AOC at a different base depending on where there is capacity. In this case, as you would have been given a Scandi base right from the start and signed a contract with a PSx company, you will not be given a release base in Spain, but instead move to the base given in your contract.

You'll do your OCC course on one AOC, and as mentioned, when you're released and ready to move to your assigned base, you'll simply do a sim check and a line check under the new AOC and you're good to go!

[Direct Bondi]

Your seniority is not so much based on what your staff number is, but the date you officially join the company, i.e. your first day of ground school, and it is this date that guarantees your seniority.

Does your “guarantee” of seniority appear in your agency employment contract ?

Notwithstanding the multiple AOC’s and associated multiple regulatory safety oversight, the convoluted, can of worms, direct employment circumvention associated with Norwegian’s atypical labor scheme, with its system-wide temporary rental of pilots from service provider agencies, is exampled in a European Commission, Norwegian/OSM merger report – Link:

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/merg...7949_400_3.pdf

There are three contracts associated with crew members temporarily rented to a Norwegian Group airline:

1. Pilot employment contract with the agency.
2. Contract between the service providers and Norwegian to rent agency employed pilots.
3. Individual service agreements between the agency and Norwegian for each pilot rented.

Ask the agency to fully explain item 3 before embarking on your Norwegian adventure. Item 3 permits Norwegian to cancel the service agreement without notice, reason or recourse (previously clause 10.b in a contract on file with the DOT). Any notice period is with the agency, not Norwegian.

Cue the inventive Norwegian lynch mob….

[22052014]

Positions in European Bases

Hello everyone,
Does anybody know if there are still position available in the Norwegian European Bases ?

I would like to give a try and join if possible but definitely prefer to stay in Europe than Scandinavia for various reasons.

Is there otherwise the possibility to apply for Scandi Bases and afterwards ask during the base bidding a base in Europe ?

Anyone can shine a light on it please ?
Very highly appreciated

[INKJET]

In response to Bondi’s continued anti Norwegian campaign

Yes of course like any employer there exists a mechanism whereby an employee of any provider maybe be removed.

The question is why such action maybe taken?

Let’s remember that Norwegian is a rapidly expanding airline and needs pilots in the hundreds each year for the foreseeable future.

In over 6 years I know of only maybe 3 pilots who have been ‘ terminated’ for reasons other than poor performance, by which I mean a sustained failure to reach the required standard despite the best efforts of the training department to achieve that aim.

Of the 3 sent packing it was down to the individuals unsuitability to discharge their responsibilities as an airline pilot as an ambassador for the airline that they are engaged to fly for.

The prime example being “ Bondi” who has since being shown the door from HEL posted 259 times, over 95% of which are anti Norwegian, so I say this read a few of his posts, they are all much of a muchness and ask yourself this? Is this the action of well balanced individual suitable to be in command of a public transport aircraft? no neither did Norwegian or his next employer on the other side of the Baltic

No airline is perfect and let’s be clear you are not directly employed by Norwegian, but by a service provider that happens to be 50% owned by Norwegian, you are not self employed, you will pay income tax and social taxes in your base country, there is a MSL that in general is adhered to, you have the right to union recognition, you will get paid holidays, hotels out of base, crew food ( & water) a pension, free uniform,private medical, paid duty pay for positioning whether by ground or air transport & so on.

Finally ask yourself this, what difference did being employed directly by Air Berlin,Monarch,Alitalia,Niki,Globespan,bmi and so on make ?

Cue from Bondi for being accused of being an apologist for Norwegians ‘atypical labour scheme’

[REMAX11]

I really do not know what difference make if Bondi was shown the door or not(by the way, how would you know? And how can you judge?)
I checked and fund most of Bondi posts informative and accurate. I do believe that pilots nowadays are too naive about the working practices of their employers and really do not understand or choose to ignore the consequences and implications.

There are small operators that do exist only because they manage to barely break even thanks to pay to fly and illegal hiring practices. If you are happy to provide support for those practices by agreeing to questionable employment deals, suit yourself. After all, we are our worst enemy.

[aerodestination]

Any news regarding future ab-initio hiring from norwegian/OSM? They were heavily recruiting cadets about 12 to 18 months ago but it seems to be only direct entry FO now.

[Direct Bondi]

By REMAX11 - I checked and found most of Bondi posts informative and accurate. I do believe that pilots nowadays are too naive about the working practices of their employers and really do not understand or choose to ignore the consequences and implications.

Thanks REMAX11. You are correct, many agency employed pilots fail to understand the erosion of their rights permitted by atypical employment schemes.

INKJET again makes inventive claims in an attempt to crush any post perceived as being negative on Norwegian, this time by suggesting those providing such information are not competent to command jet transport aircraft. The suggestion is indicative of a cult member intoxicated by the euphoria of a hypnotic guru leader. Tambourines, Kool-Aid and aeroplanes may provide a dangerous mix.

INKJET and his cronies should check their purported facts at the Fornebu rats nest before posting. When checking, please update me on the DY7006 report. The blunder and debacle detailed in the report is indeed a prime example of the selective and wrongful “removal mechanisms” permitted by atypical employment schemes. The leader of Parat union is quoted in Dagbladet as saying the actions against the cabin crew “Reeks of punishment and discrimination” – Links:

https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/kab...einen/60837192

https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/ras...dling/60720657

Good luck and be sure to carefully read the agency contract, particularly clause 10.b or similar - consider review by an employment lawyer.

[nrn]

With regards to the incident in New York. Trying not to speculate too much, however with all our CRM training etc cabin crew must understand that if the flight crew says it's save to fly it is. It is not really a democracy, especially not with cabin crew. Sure they can voice their concerns and it is the flight crew's job to assure the cabin crew, but the cabin crew does not decide if the aircraft takes off or not.

If they do abandon ship there is not option of flying anymore, you can't go with less than the minimum crew compliment (unless you ferry the aircraft).

(Not working for Norwegian anymore)

[EIFFS]

REMAX11

I also had a read through Bondi’s previous post and whilst some of what he states his correct or factual (constant linking to other reports) there is no evidence whats so ever of any balance and they seemed to used selective to justify his anti Norwegian Agenda.

Working on the assumption that most pilots are neither naive or muppets then the sheer number of pilots leaving other airlines to join Norwegian suggests that i can’t be all bad.

Day after day the people who i fly with are very positive about the company and I have yet to meet one who would go back to FR.

Bondi’s argument about employment and who employe's you seems to exist largely in Bondi’s imagination, from what i can see few are bothered about it, our union is recognised by the employer OSM and they meet most weeks to resolve issues that the crews highlight and in the main there is a positive out come.

I think it is clear that bondi is very ‘on it’ with Norwegian yet is silent about the practices in other airline in this sector, why is that?

Of course its a free world and within reason its free speech, my advise for anyone thinking of joining FR or Norwegian would be to book a flight with both of them, see what its really like and talk to the crews

[SSDK]

I have no idea what history "Bondi" has with Norwegian, but having gone through 3 different bases in the company in the past almost 5 years I do believe I have a pretty good grip on how it is to work for them.

It is true that being thrown on an OSM contract was a bit of a let down, and boy have we had our battles with them on an everyday basis for a long time. However, in my humble opinion we are at the moment in a place where things are, for me at least, quite good. The pay needs to improve a bit comparing to our orange counterparts etc, but on a daily basis, I really do not have any other places I want to be right now. You call in sick or fatigued - no problem. You get long term sick - no problem. You mess up something- they listen to you. Training department is on the ball, and constantly trying to iron out potential threats. I could go on and on. We periodically work a lot (not too surprising in an expanding environment tbh) which is constantly being addressed with the union.

I do realize that it is not the well oiled machine that they aspire to be just yet, but having felt the changes first to the worse, then to the better I actually see things in quite a positive light. I know its not a popular stand here on pprune, but there you go. I find that some people always look for the bad stuff and focus on that for an eternity instead of actually taking a step back to look at the big picture of it all.


I think it is important to understand that the personal experiences with a company vary to an almost extreme degree. If you expect a "Scandinavian BA". then stay away. If you expect something like easyjet, you are more likely to be on target.

Oh, and with day off payments and flying into my days off, I am at around 130K this tax year flying from the left seat excluding pension and extras.