The irreconcilable position of Need but don't want foreign Pilots in China
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Pilots should be very careful
China is very tricky.It takes 6 months to get the job.The ATPL exam is written in chinglish and doesnt make any sense so good luck passing that.The medical is crazy including brain MRI which entails 15 mins with head clamped whilst in scanner.Blood tests and BMI very stringent standards.You cant be overweight and must take statins.Then theres the contract.The one they give you in English doesnt actually count.The Chinese one is what counts.Lots of traps.Money deductions if you dont fly x hrs,if youre sick,if uniform untidy.It must be read with a fine tooth comb but again only the one in Chinese actually counts.
If youre in your thirties(medical much better),very fit,and exceptionally patient and affable,then I would try it.The people are okay.But its communist and they eat dogs and ****.
If youre in your thirties(medical much better),very fit,and exceptionally patient and affable,then I would try it.The people are okay.But its communist and they eat dogs and ****.
Non Standard medicals...
Prior posts are on the money... the whole program is schizophrenic, in need of a dose of lithium.
I held a CAAC medical for 3 checks... was still a major workout each time. They then added an addendum, the Carotid Ultrasound. Was done by a relatively ham fisted nurse at the CAAC base hospital. The crushing of one carotid, vs the light tough on the other was notable, as was the variation.. follow up, "need CTA". CTA= CAT Angiogram. No thanks. Next? OK, we will do a GE Lightspeed (Sestarmibi) instead... will accept that one. Still done at CAAC hospital. "you have a slight buildup... less than the ICAO/JAA/FAA standard... now do CTA. refer prior answer, no thanks. "But you cannot fly without a medical..."
Contacted a friend who is a vascular surgeon, who both conducts and has had a CTA conducted on him by another vascular surgeon. "DO NOT DO IT... unless your life depends on it..." The surgeon has a point, the statistics are people do die from perforation of the heart, at a non insignificant rate, and about 3 times more have mini strokes as a direct consequence of the procedure. The surgeon has a case in point, his own, where his heart was perforated, and he crashed in the operation, took 6 months to recover. Note that the CAAC doctors are GP's not vascular surgeons, and you cannot do this test with anyone else.
When I returned home, I visited the surgeon and redid the carotid as a risk management measure. He used high resolution doppler imaging, and got very low (surprisingly) measures of plaque buildup, about the same as the average 20 year old, and nowhere near what would be expected for one of my age/condition. The CAAC is happy to attempt to force healthy crew undergo invasive and risky testing, and irrational surgery (yes, some guys have gone off and undertaken stents on healthy systems to satisfy the CAAC docs... stents are good for about 10 years, and you get one redo, then you get to have a triple bypass... or die, your choice...).
Given that only 1/3rd of heart attacks are related to the vascular system, not too sure that the CAAC is in the business of risk management, as much as crowd control.
OTOH, the good news is that in my current duties, I now get a chance to inspect B- registered aircraft invading our airspace instead. What goes around, comes around.
The company I was with was fighting hard to make way within the CAAC system, they had their faults, but they are under constant attack by the inmates that have escaped and achieved positions of power in the CAAC system. Their local FOI's observing the ATPL flight test were a testament to the inexorable rise of incompetence in the CAAC, while innocuous in this case, their competency if C4 would hardly blow your nose. Having spent a lot of time in foreign lands, and worked at various levels in regulatory authorities, and worked with the same, I can honestly say I am impressed that CAAC is not held to account by the states that they launch scuds towards, or by the toothless gecko, ICAO. ICAO is of course not an institution interested in implementation, only establishment of the policies, and practices on the dusty bookshelf. There are competent operators in the PRC, but they are so in spite of, not due to the CAAC.
Final item. The company doesn't support the individual undertaking the CAAC medical, if CAAC stops your heart, and ruins your ICAO licenses, it's up to your insurance etc (if any), not the companies. On declining the invitation of undergoing the guinea pig program of CAAC medical, the company invokes the contract clauses the same day. Of course, the company also declines for 6 months to release your documentation/license etc, which they have no contractual rights to.
I like China, the land, the people and the food, but I am not that keen on what they do with bureaucracy and aviation.
Good luck in the middle kingdom.
I held a CAAC medical for 3 checks... was still a major workout each time. They then added an addendum, the Carotid Ultrasound. Was done by a relatively ham fisted nurse at the CAAC base hospital. The crushing of one carotid, vs the light tough on the other was notable, as was the variation.. follow up, "need CTA". CTA= CAT Angiogram. No thanks. Next? OK, we will do a GE Lightspeed (Sestarmibi) instead... will accept that one. Still done at CAAC hospital. "you have a slight buildup... less than the ICAO/JAA/FAA standard... now do CTA. refer prior answer, no thanks. "But you cannot fly without a medical..."
Contacted a friend who is a vascular surgeon, who both conducts and has had a CTA conducted on him by another vascular surgeon. "DO NOT DO IT... unless your life depends on it..." The surgeon has a point, the statistics are people do die from perforation of the heart, at a non insignificant rate, and about 3 times more have mini strokes as a direct consequence of the procedure. The surgeon has a case in point, his own, where his heart was perforated, and he crashed in the operation, took 6 months to recover. Note that the CAAC doctors are GP's not vascular surgeons, and you cannot do this test with anyone else.
When I returned home, I visited the surgeon and redid the carotid as a risk management measure. He used high resolution doppler imaging, and got very low (surprisingly) measures of plaque buildup, about the same as the average 20 year old, and nowhere near what would be expected for one of my age/condition. The CAAC is happy to attempt to force healthy crew undergo invasive and risky testing, and irrational surgery (yes, some guys have gone off and undertaken stents on healthy systems to satisfy the CAAC docs... stents are good for about 10 years, and you get one redo, then you get to have a triple bypass... or die, your choice...).
Given that only 1/3rd of heart attacks are related to the vascular system, not too sure that the CAAC is in the business of risk management, as much as crowd control.
OTOH, the good news is that in my current duties, I now get a chance to inspect B- registered aircraft invading our airspace instead. What goes around, comes around.
The company I was with was fighting hard to make way within the CAAC system, they had their faults, but they are under constant attack by the inmates that have escaped and achieved positions of power in the CAAC system. Their local FOI's observing the ATPL flight test were a testament to the inexorable rise of incompetence in the CAAC, while innocuous in this case, their competency if C4 would hardly blow your nose. Having spent a lot of time in foreign lands, and worked at various levels in regulatory authorities, and worked with the same, I can honestly say I am impressed that CAAC is not held to account by the states that they launch scuds towards, or by the toothless gecko, ICAO. ICAO is of course not an institution interested in implementation, only establishment of the policies, and practices on the dusty bookshelf. There are competent operators in the PRC, but they are so in spite of, not due to the CAAC.
Final item. The company doesn't support the individual undertaking the CAAC medical, if CAAC stops your heart, and ruins your ICAO licenses, it's up to your insurance etc (if any), not the companies. On declining the invitation of undergoing the guinea pig program of CAAC medical, the company invokes the contract clauses the same day. Of course, the company also declines for 6 months to release your documentation/license etc, which they have no contractual rights to.
I like China, the land, the people and the food, but I am not that keen on what they do with bureaucracy and aviation.
Good luck in the middle kingdom.
Last edited by fdr; 23rd Dec 2012 at 04:41.
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Thanks fdr, a very accurate and informative post. It reflects exactly what I've seen guys going through at the CAAC.
Last edited by kungfu panda; 21st Dec 2012 at 23:47.
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If you took a room of 100 pilots how many would consider a job in China?
Obviously the ones without a job and then maybe only 5 of those with a job, and only those with the experience to meet requirements.
Having met the requirements one would assume that each and every one of them have had a successful career to date, no accidents and a healthy medical score card.
Why then would you risk all that to place yourself under the Chinese aviation medical system, run by career occupational medics in their safe government job?
I note with interest the silence on behalf of the recruitment agencies whose market is China. What do they have to say on this cull of foreign pilots out of China?
Obviously the ones without a job and then maybe only 5 of those with a job, and only those with the experience to meet requirements.
Having met the requirements one would assume that each and every one of them have had a successful career to date, no accidents and a healthy medical score card.
Why then would you risk all that to place yourself under the Chinese aviation medical system, run by career occupational medics in their safe government job?
I note with interest the silence on behalf of the recruitment agencies whose market is China. What do they have to say on this cull of foreign pilots out of China?
Last edited by Blue-Footed Boobie; 23rd Dec 2012 at 00:13.
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It is becoming obvious that there are orders from Beijing to get rid of foreign pilots already operating in China and prevent more of them from being hired. Anyone has a clue as to what could be the real motives behind this change in policy ? Is the same thing happening in the state owned companies ? Are their own pilots being subjected to this kind of scrutiny ? Could it be that their growth forecast was too optimistic and they are now trying to safeguard well paying jobs for their boys ?
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NXLHS- I think that your post is speculative and not actually accurate. What I think is that everything in China is run by dozens of different commitees, which behave as interest groups, it is a very complex system which is not really a dictatorship because no individual has that level of authoritarian power.
Aviation has numerous commitees within the CAAC, which often work against each other. whilst one group may believe that it is in the interest of growth in china to hire foreign pilots another may not. Any incident that involves a foreign Pilot empowers the groups that do not want foreign Pilots. There is also a culture of blame in China, which can work against the hiring of foreign Pilots and it is this that has brought about changes to the CAAC medical, making it very difficult to pass. Apparently last year a Captain had a stroke, the conclusion of the investigation placed some blame on CAAC medical department. Their response was to say well if there is any risk at all that a Pilot may become incapacitated, no matter how miniscule, he will not have a CAAC medical, in conjunction with this they added further tests including an MRI and CT scan.
As for the simulator failures which are numerous, the face saving part of the culture, has the Chinese believe that their local pilots are the best in the world and in order to demonstrate this local pilots have to pass sim checks whilst foreign pilots fail.
Aviation has numerous commitees within the CAAC, which often work against each other. whilst one group may believe that it is in the interest of growth in china to hire foreign pilots another may not. Any incident that involves a foreign Pilot empowers the groups that do not want foreign Pilots. There is also a culture of blame in China, which can work against the hiring of foreign Pilots and it is this that has brought about changes to the CAAC medical, making it very difficult to pass. Apparently last year a Captain had a stroke, the conclusion of the investigation placed some blame on CAAC medical department. Their response was to say well if there is any risk at all that a Pilot may become incapacitated, no matter how miniscule, he will not have a CAAC medical, in conjunction with this they added further tests including an MRI and CT scan.
As for the simulator failures which are numerous, the face saving part of the culture, has the Chinese believe that their local pilots are the best in the world and in order to demonstrate this local pilots have to pass sim checks whilst foreign pilots fail.
Last edited by kungfu panda; 25th Dec 2012 at 21:01.
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KP , speculative ? Maybe , but that's the only thing one can do while working in China because nobody tells you anything. So we are left wondering why things happen the way they do and trying to connect the dots to make some sense of the chaos we are immersed in. In view of recent events occurred in simulator, line and medical checks , one dot might be worth joining, just check the thread Are you serious China!!! where a high ranking official states his intention of promoting a purge in foreign pilot ranks . It could be that the intention of rooting out bad seeds is just a pretext or excuse to get rid of good professionals also , because that is what's happening now. Not only does it affect pilots already working in China, but it also scares away many potential applicants because credibility of the whole system is compromised , and no intelligent pilot is willing to move to a country where the aeronautical authority is working against him, it's suicidal.
NXLHS they are indeed doing a good job of scaring off the sensible foreigners.
The rumour is that they have incapacitated a foreigner on the operating table while attempting an unnecessary angiogram- this being kept quiet of course. Just a routine medical check in China.
Anyone else want to risk their life for a 6 month contract?
The rumour is that they have incapacitated a foreigner on the operating table while attempting an unnecessary angiogram- this being kept quiet of course. Just a routine medical check in China.
Anyone else want to risk their life for a 6 month contract?
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Not that I'm ever considering a career in Chinese aviation (I have too many friends in the offshore industry to want to work there) but I have found this quite inrtruiging. To the point, how irriconcilible is this need? Are the Chinese actually damaging their aviation industry by this ethinc cleansing of western pilots? Or is there more than enough homegrown talent to fill the gaps?
I don't know, but I'm guessing the Chinese aviation industry must be huge compared to our own, given the size of their country and population.
Excuse the ignorance, and apologies if this has been asked before.
I don't know, but I'm guessing the Chinese aviation industry must be huge compared to our own, given the size of their country and population.
Excuse the ignorance, and apologies if this has been asked before.
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Jim-The potential for growth in the industry in China is almost beyond comprehension. The number of people flying every year is only around 3 or 4% of the population compared to 40% in the west, with a GDP expected to double in the next 12 years that number could quite easily go up to 10 to 15%. That would mean the requirement for large numbers of pilots. Whilst the Chinese do not seem to have any problem producing sufficient numbers of First officers, they do require a lot of experienced Captains. The problem as has been expressed on this thread is that they have a system which allows interest groups to put road blocks in the way of foreign Pilots successfully entering and working in China. My view is that these road blocks do, and will continue in the future to damage the growth of the industry.
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It may be a luxury these days ... but I would struggle to wish employment with any company that did not make me feel welcome and wanted. I do not mean carousing/ massaging of ego ... more an acknowledgement that you have been invited to join them in order to further the success of their company ... and that they expect you to return their investment.
I believe China to be a great place to work potentially, but all the anecdotal evidence of predetermined failures in the sim/ line training, and medical eccentricities detract from this. A shame ...
Just my thoughts ...
I believe China to be a great place to work potentially, but all the anecdotal evidence of predetermined failures in the sim/ line training, and medical eccentricities detract from this. A shame ...
Just my thoughts ...
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Confirming...
....All what was said.
Medical competence there is from middle-age.
They buy high technology instruments but cannot read the results.
Decisions are arbitrary and taken by a single man who can erase you without explanations.
Extra checks like Angiogram or Ct scans are requested as routine checks while they are dangerous for your health.
Yes, recently one expat captain was incapacitated by one angiogram...damages have to be "fixed" at home with annual leaves of course.
Another recent one was fired "with immediate effect" after a positive check which was not confirmed in his country afterwhile.
This is not a 6 months contract but a 4 months contract as you have to do a few examinations in the 2 months before the expiry and any examination can stop your carreer "on a phone call" or an email "sorry but you didn't pass ".
Medical competence there is from middle-age.
They buy high technology instruments but cannot read the results.
Decisions are arbitrary and taken by a single man who can erase you without explanations.
Extra checks like Angiogram or Ct scans are requested as routine checks while they are dangerous for your health.
Yes, recently one expat captain was incapacitated by one angiogram...damages have to be "fixed" at home with annual leaves of course.
Another recent one was fired "with immediate effect" after a positive check which was not confirmed in his country afterwhile.
This is not a 6 months contract but a 4 months contract as you have to do a few examinations in the 2 months before the expiry and any examination can stop your carreer "on a phone call" or an email "sorry but you didn't pass ".
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I've always seen the requirements of a pilot as being intelligence, aptitude and medical fitness.
Rather like the triangle of fire, take one element away and the fire goes out.
Assuming the Chinese nationals can pass the medicals, what's stopping the Chinese recruiting droves of locals to fill the vacant seats?!
Rather like the triangle of fire, take one element away and the fire goes out.
Assuming the Chinese nationals can pass the medicals, what's stopping the Chinese recruiting droves of locals to fill the vacant seats?!
Assuming the Chinese nationals can pass the medicals, what's stopping the Chinese recruiting droves of locals to fill the vacant seats?!
