Ryanair Pay v's Costs for Cadets
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Excellent words of wisdom Normal Pilot.
Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.
On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!
The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!
Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.
On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!
The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!
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Excellent words of wisdom Normal Pilot.
Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.
On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!
The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!
Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.
On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!
The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!
For what it's worth, you're both right, nothing will ever change in this industry and I imagine it will get considerable worse. Just surprised everyone is so willing to sit back and speak up in support of it's downfall.
If like it has been suggested I am just as guilty in driving down Terms and conditions by accepting my new job then I would like to apologise to the whole piloting community it was never my intention to do this and I hope you will all forgive me!
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Enzo999 - as you point out, not being allowed to join a union is the key issue. This is the one that has enabled RYR and NAS to rip the guts from T and Cs. How much of what has happened to airline pilots would happen to Tube or Train drivers ?
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I always had the dream of being an airline pilot,
There is no such beast. The spectrum is as multi-coloured and iffy as a day old pizza special. It depends on who you work for and on what fleet. 90% of wannabes can not answer those questions when they take the expensive plunge into the unknown. I wonder how many realise that. I wonder how many realise how just how little 'piloting' is done nowadays? This idea that joining RYR as a starting point on the stairway to heaven is fraught with so much danger as to question the sanity of those who do it. Ask then at the beginning of their MPA course where they want & expect to be in 5 years time. The answers will fill astound you. Then check back in 5 years later. Madness. I know some who are still baggage handlers 5 years later; other who are busting a gut to escape the Irish lTD saga; others who are considering if they can resist the Chinese dollar offers and what it might mean. None of then thought these questions would be asked 5 years earlier. Their eyes were full of glamour.
Pilot is an over-used term in any case: see other topics on this discussion.
There is no such beast. The spectrum is as multi-coloured and iffy as a day old pizza special. It depends on who you work for and on what fleet. 90% of wannabes can not answer those questions when they take the expensive plunge into the unknown. I wonder how many realise that. I wonder how many realise how just how little 'piloting' is done nowadays? This idea that joining RYR as a starting point on the stairway to heaven is fraught with so much danger as to question the sanity of those who do it. Ask then at the beginning of their MPA course where they want & expect to be in 5 years time. The answers will fill astound you. Then check back in 5 years later. Madness. I know some who are still baggage handlers 5 years later; other who are busting a gut to escape the Irish lTD saga; others who are considering if they can resist the Chinese dollar offers and what it might mean. None of then thought these questions would be asked 5 years earlier. Their eyes were full of glamour.
Pilot is an over-used term in any case: see other topics on this discussion.
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Some of the blame also needs to be dumped squarely at the feet of the old timers with gold plated contracts. They should have refused to fly with cadets that paid for type ratings, they should have refused to fly with pay to fliers, etc etc. As they are only in the long run cutting their noses off to spite their face..
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I joined 7 years ago. 12 guys on the type rating and the deal hasn't changed much since. Out of the original twelve five of us are Captains,line training Captains and one TRE all on permanent contracts UK/IRE 100k plus. Three went to Emirates two went to Thomson and two joined BA.
It wasn't the easiest to begin with but it worked out for all twelve one way or the other. There are no fixed term 6 month contracts as previously mentioned. Most of our FOs that have itchy feet at the moment are joining BA Thomson and Norwegian long haul. It is what it is and good luck to them.
It wasn't the easiest to begin with but it worked out for all twelve one way or the other. There are no fixed term 6 month contracts as previously mentioned. Most of our FOs that have itchy feet at the moment are joining BA Thomson and Norwegian long haul. It is what it is and good luck to them.
Last edited by Lazydogg; 27th Aug 2016 at 21:30.
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Just out of curiosity, the Ryanair 5/4 roster alternates 'earlies' and 'lates' every week, correct? When would a typical work day start and end during a set of each? I understand it may vary depending on a number of factors such as the assigned base, but its just to have a rough idea.
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Thanks for the reply, much appreciated!
That's what I thought, can't understand why they'd have you completely change your sleeping cycle every week instead of being on a fixed schedule of earlies or lates. easyJet does this too if I'm not mistaken, why do they do this, am I missing something?
That's what I thought, can't understand why they'd have you completely change your sleeping cycle every week instead of being on a fixed schedule of earlies or lates. easyJet does this too if I'm not mistaken, why do they do this, am I missing something?
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If your switching earlies and lates it means you have to completely readjust your sleeping cycle every week, isn't it so? Hence I was wondering why they just don't have pilots do one or the other.
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"If your switching earlies and lates it means you have to completely readjust your sleeping cycle every week, isn't it so? Hence I was wondering why they just don't have pilots do one or the other."
Not really. You are pretty much always asleep when it matters i.e. between 0100 and 0400.
Also in some bases they only operate long flights on earlies and short flights on lates, this would mean you would be less productive for the company but most importantly earn less.
If you were flying long haul then you would experience true disruption of your flight pattern. Here you are in your own bed every night and generally well rested.
Not really. You are pretty much always asleep when it matters i.e. between 0100 and 0400.
Also in some bases they only operate long flights on earlies and short flights on lates, this would mean you would be less productive for the company but most importantly earn less.
If you were flying long haul then you would experience true disruption of your flight pattern. Here you are in your own bed every night and generally well rested.
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I much prefer earlies! Getting up at 4am isn't a problem and I spend the working day awake and get home for a sundowner and supper.
I absolutely loath lates. I'm up at 8am irrespective of when I went to bed, and by the time I'm inbound close to midnight my circadian rhythm is whispering 'sleep, sleep, I need sleep'.
But I wouldn't want to have an 'earlies only' roster. I like variety. Plus, a two sector day starting at 5pm leaves the majority of the 'working day' free.
I absolutely loath lates. I'm up at 8am irrespective of when I went to bed, and by the time I'm inbound close to midnight my circadian rhythm is whispering 'sleep, sleep, I need sleep'.
But I wouldn't want to have an 'earlies only' roster. I like variety. Plus, a two sector day starting at 5pm leaves the majority of the 'working day' free.
