Ryanair Pay v's Costs for Cadets
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@Airbusa320.Easyjet
I don't know where you have got your information from, but I must say that you are a bit out of date regarding "6-month contract only", "Brookfield" and "net pay of less than Eur2k/month".
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Go on then astound us with the current T and Cs on offer to cadets at Ryan Air. free type rating, 50k a year salary, LOL plus PHC insurance, 35 day paid holiday, Sick pay, Pension, Union recognition???????
No? Thought not!
No? Thought not!
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I'm not a RYR apologist. But, can you name anywhere that is offering those sorts of T&Cs to cadets, because I'll be at the front of the queue!
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Enzo999 sums up the confusion over Ryanair. Yes cadets dont get many things because they are contractors. However all is not as it seems.
Being contractors works for 'them' as most dont pay much if any tax (legit) for the first few years while they claim their training costs back via expenses.
As soon as the the training costs dry up and the tax starts kicking in they apply for a Ryanair contract - smart move.
If they can get one and when on a permanent contract they get a pilots allowance to cover LOL/PHC/Medical etc
Not sure what it is for FOs but UK Capts get £6000pa to cover all the above. Thats money is yours to do what you with. As far as FR is concerned you can get on a flight to Vegas with the missus and lob it all on black they dont care its just comes into your salary every month.
Of course now being being FR employees they get Paid Holiday/Sick Pay and enrol in the company pension.
With no seniority, good quality training, interesting route network and new planes, a command is in the offing after 3000 hours if they are up to it or its gained them enough experience to go and play with BA's, Emirates or China Southerns train sets which is where most seem to go.
Ryanair is not perfect but its a foot in the door and better than a kick in the balls.
Short term pain for long term gain - possibly somewhere else.
Ps trying to be balanced if thats possible in a Ryanair thread.
Being contractors works for 'them' as most dont pay much if any tax (legit) for the first few years while they claim their training costs back via expenses.
As soon as the the training costs dry up and the tax starts kicking in they apply for a Ryanair contract - smart move.
If they can get one and when on a permanent contract they get a pilots allowance to cover LOL/PHC/Medical etc
Not sure what it is for FOs but UK Capts get £6000pa to cover all the above. Thats money is yours to do what you with. As far as FR is concerned you can get on a flight to Vegas with the missus and lob it all on black they dont care its just comes into your salary every month.
Of course now being being FR employees they get Paid Holiday/Sick Pay and enrol in the company pension.
With no seniority, good quality training, interesting route network and new planes, a command is in the offing after 3000 hours if they are up to it or its gained them enough experience to go and play with BA's, Emirates or China Southerns train sets which is where most seem to go.
Ryanair is not perfect but its a foot in the door and better than a kick in the balls.
Short term pain for long term gain - possibly somewhere else.
Ps trying to be balanced if thats possible in a Ryanair thread.
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A massive load of out of date and nonsense here...as usual!
New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...
Tr cost, 29500e. Also need to factor in rent+food for about 8 weeks. All unpaid.
After training, for around 20 sect max you will have safety pilot, so no pay, but this is normally only a week. During line training pay is about 30e per hr, for about 80-90 sectors.
Hrs vary by base, STN/dub is always busy, 800-850per yr. smaller bases vary, and in the winter these smaller bases chop and change very quickly so not ideal. The canaries is a good one, with all days being around 8hr block, you work 10 days a month down there.
Tax. You are now forced to use their nominated accountants. Each have their pros and cons, but they are more legit than in past, which means people are paying social security as an employer and employee...MOL likes to shirk his responsibilities on social security...while you have expenses you can work tax free, for around 18month - 2yrs. Or, pay some small tax and drag expenses out longer. Some FO's whilst on the expenses train clear 6k e a month. After expenses used up, in uk expect to lose 35-40% to tax.
Holiday pay, none as contractor, one month unpaid leave to be taken as one, and 10 days to take unpaid as you wish. Can be hard to get approved. Sick pay, zero.
Pros, if based at home, great roster, otherwise get used to commuting. Most people get base of choice eventually, at the moment due to crew shortages people get bases very quick. Quick upgrade, option to work in sim as an fo and become a tri, secondments on to Learjet fleet if that takes your fancy, lots of experience very quickly due to network and high hrs rosters. Lots of opportunities to become ltc when upgraded if that is your thing. Well maintained fleet. Cons, contractor status, fear of tax man coming knocking, no protections, no sick pay, lots of unpaid work (everyday during preflight is all unpaid..every turnaround unpaid, every slot unpaid...). Buy your uniform, pay your car parking, pay for your id.
A lot of long timers at Ryan, 20+ yrs, so can't be all that bad.
New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...
Tr cost, 29500e. Also need to factor in rent+food for about 8 weeks. All unpaid.
After training, for around 20 sect max you will have safety pilot, so no pay, but this is normally only a week. During line training pay is about 30e per hr, for about 80-90 sectors.
Hrs vary by base, STN/dub is always busy, 800-850per yr. smaller bases vary, and in the winter these smaller bases chop and change very quickly so not ideal. The canaries is a good one, with all days being around 8hr block, you work 10 days a month down there.
Tax. You are now forced to use their nominated accountants. Each have their pros and cons, but they are more legit than in past, which means people are paying social security as an employer and employee...MOL likes to shirk his responsibilities on social security...while you have expenses you can work tax free, for around 18month - 2yrs. Or, pay some small tax and drag expenses out longer. Some FO's whilst on the expenses train clear 6k e a month. After expenses used up, in uk expect to lose 35-40% to tax.
Holiday pay, none as contractor, one month unpaid leave to be taken as one, and 10 days to take unpaid as you wish. Can be hard to get approved. Sick pay, zero.
Pros, if based at home, great roster, otherwise get used to commuting. Most people get base of choice eventually, at the moment due to crew shortages people get bases very quick. Quick upgrade, option to work in sim as an fo and become a tri, secondments on to Learjet fleet if that takes your fancy, lots of experience very quickly due to network and high hrs rosters. Lots of opportunities to become ltc when upgraded if that is your thing. Well maintained fleet. Cons, contractor status, fear of tax man coming knocking, no protections, no sick pay, lots of unpaid work (everyday during preflight is all unpaid..every turnaround unpaid, every slot unpaid...). Buy your uniform, pay your car parking, pay for your id.
A lot of long timers at Ryan, 20+ yrs, so can't be all that bad.
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I can think of an airline like that too... I wonder if it is the same one? If so, it is the *only* airline that does it but you do have to spend 12 months doing office work first
I can name at least one airline in the UK where you don't pay for your typerating AND get a decent salary from the moment you sign on the dotted line.Join Date: Jan 2006
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To put things in another perspective, the Ryanair TR is maybe the cheapest one you can do out there (despite the regular price increase, it was only 27 000 euro a few years ago). The reason being it's your company that pays for it, not you with your privately earned, taxed, money.
All the same as the Brookfield except the rates have been dropped when > 500 hrs, >1500 hrs and the 'command ready' rate.
Experience (or loyalty) is not valued in Ryanair. You will earn the same as all other FOs. With that I mean, there is no special contract for you just because you've got plenty of hours. Contracts vary by base.
New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...
All the same as the Brookfield except the rates have been dropped when > 500 hrs, >1500 hrs and the 'command ready' rate.
What is the payscale for experienced FOs? ie 5000-ish hours on type?
Experience (or loyalty) is not valued in Ryanair. You will earn the same as all other FOs. With that I mean, there is no special contract for you just because you've got plenty of hours. Contracts vary by base.
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To put things in another perspective, the Ryanair TR is maybe the cheapest one you can do out there (despite the regular price increase, it was only 27 000 euro a few years ago). The reason being it's your company that pays for it, not you with your privately earned, taxed, money.
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I know it's not fantastic but there's no taking away from the fact that after a few years (perhaps more now with reduced hours), you will have an unfrozen licence and some good experience to enable you to go looking for better T&C's.
If you speak to anyone in pretty much any industry they all say "it's not what it used to be!", this is certainly true of the medical and teaching profession, building trade, the police, fire service etc etc. Times have changed and you can either chose to roll with it and open doors or moan and not create any opportunitys for yourself in the coming years.
If you speak to anyone in pretty much any industry they all say "it's not what it used to be!", this is certainly true of the medical and teaching profession, building trade, the police, fire service etc etc. Times have changed and you can either chose to roll with it and open doors or moan and not create any opportunitys for yourself in the coming years.
And regarding other industries, what an utter bull****, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)
To all of you about Ryanair is topnotch, yes, I'm sure it is not bad for captains, but where are we if we accept cadets are still treated this way, or is it a new safety regulation maybe that FOs sleep best in their cars!?
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@UAV689
Spot on regarding the T&C in Ryanair!
Except that you're not charged 35-40% tax on your whole net pay - there are personal tax allowances that you claim and then there are tax bands with only the part of the salary above £43,000 that you pay 40% in UK. Other countries have their personal allowances and tax bands which can be different.
Except that you're not charged 35-40% tax on your whole net pay - there are personal tax allowances that you claim and then there are tax bands with only the part of the salary above £43,000 that you pay 40% in UK. Other countries have their personal allowances and tax bands which can be different.
It is worth noting that those hourly rates are €6, 7 and 14 respectively below what was on offer 5 years ago. The cost of living hasn't exactly gone down since.
People who have been with Ryanair 20 years will be on permanent contracts from when Ryanair was a notoriously generous employer (yes, it did happen once!) but receiving barely inflation in terms of pay rises since.
People who have been with Ryanair 20 years will be on permanent contracts from when Ryanair was a notoriously generous employer (yes, it did happen once!) but receiving barely inflation in terms of pay rises since.
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What more would you like to know?
If the type rating costs €25,000, you pay for it. Start work, claim it as an expense, you pay €25,000 less in tax. Therefore you have paid €25,000 less in tax, so as I said effectively you haven't paid anything for the type rating.
Let me know if you want to know anything more specific.
If the type rating costs €25,000, you pay for it. Start work, claim it as an expense, you pay €25,000 less in tax. Therefore you have paid €25,000 less in tax, so as I said effectively you haven't paid anything for the type rating.
Let me know if you want to know anything more specific.
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Norwegian are offering the same sort of gig for cadets on their 737 800 , with OSM. The cost of their type rating is Approx 24,000 Euro.
I don't think they can write it off against tax, however I think they are taxed at a very low rate for the first year or so.
Second hand information from friends so am open to correction, however for a similar role (getting into the industry and 500 hours ) seems like another option.
I don't think they can write it off against tax, however I think they are taxed at a very low rate for the first year or so.
Second hand information from friends so am open to correction, however for a similar role (getting into the industry and 500 hours ) seems like another option.
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Seen as this has been resurrected I thought I'd pass on what how I've found the last few years with Ryr.
I've been lucky, based initially in a nice base in the far south of Europe and then more recently back at home in the UK.
Money has been alright, its a bit of a pain submitting expenses every month but thats just the way it is.
I dont agree with the above re the rating being for free but you do certainly get a portion of it back as its claimed back against tax in the first couple of years.
The flying is good and relatively interesting, the company seems to be changing for the better, summer leave and the roster is pretty much unbeatable.
Don't get me wrong, there are still issues and there always will be with a company this size but I generally find that if you keep your head down, fly the plane how they want, do the paperwork correctly, do a bit of study for the sim's / line checks and you will be very much left alone.
Roughly 3 years after first setting foot in a 737 flight deck Im now approaching being considered to do the command upgrade training, I have an unfrozen licence and Im also eligible to apply elsewhere in search of a better job.
For me the opportunity to have, in another 3 years time, over 5000 total time and 2000 pic on a medium sized jet is very appealing and Im almost certain I'll hang around and have a crack at the command.
In response to weeonerotate's comments;
"And regarding other industries, what an utter bull****, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)"
Yes maybe the building trade is alright at the moment but when the next recession hits it won't be. Also a plumber who has done an apprenticeship has already spent the previous few years working for absolute peanuts.
How about the other industries? Medical profession, the police and fire service have all had pay freezes which with inflation are effectively pay cuts over the last few years (certainly in the UK).
Also we're not really working for free are we? After the rating and once safety pilot released we are earning and seeing some money coming back, according to my payroll report on a certain rostering site I have flown a little over 2600 h and made approaching 195,000 euro in the last 3 years. Take the rating out and some costs say 60k that is still 45,000 eu a year on average. Not the best pay around but not that bad either.
I've met quite a few lads over the last few years, lots of them have now moved on to the likes of BA, Thomson, J2, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and corporate jobs. I've never heard anyone say they regret joining Ryr. Please don't mistake me as a brown nose, Im not but there are very few places where lads with low experience can go, fly 900 hours a year, get exposure to flying in challenging environments and ultimately get their flying career up and running.
I suspect the same argument will be doing the rounds in years to come about people accepting poorer terms than what was previously on offer. I do understand where the argument comes from however market forces drive everything and unfortunately I can't see anything changing for the better.
I've been lucky, based initially in a nice base in the far south of Europe and then more recently back at home in the UK.
Money has been alright, its a bit of a pain submitting expenses every month but thats just the way it is.
I dont agree with the above re the rating being for free but you do certainly get a portion of it back as its claimed back against tax in the first couple of years.
The flying is good and relatively interesting, the company seems to be changing for the better, summer leave and the roster is pretty much unbeatable.
Don't get me wrong, there are still issues and there always will be with a company this size but I generally find that if you keep your head down, fly the plane how they want, do the paperwork correctly, do a bit of study for the sim's / line checks and you will be very much left alone.
Roughly 3 years after first setting foot in a 737 flight deck Im now approaching being considered to do the command upgrade training, I have an unfrozen licence and Im also eligible to apply elsewhere in search of a better job.
For me the opportunity to have, in another 3 years time, over 5000 total time and 2000 pic on a medium sized jet is very appealing and Im almost certain I'll hang around and have a crack at the command.
In response to weeonerotate's comments;
"And regarding other industries, what an utter bull****, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)"
Yes maybe the building trade is alright at the moment but when the next recession hits it won't be. Also a plumber who has done an apprenticeship has already spent the previous few years working for absolute peanuts.
How about the other industries? Medical profession, the police and fire service have all had pay freezes which with inflation are effectively pay cuts over the last few years (certainly in the UK).
Also we're not really working for free are we? After the rating and once safety pilot released we are earning and seeing some money coming back, according to my payroll report on a certain rostering site I have flown a little over 2600 h and made approaching 195,000 euro in the last 3 years. Take the rating out and some costs say 60k that is still 45,000 eu a year on average. Not the best pay around but not that bad either.
I've met quite a few lads over the last few years, lots of them have now moved on to the likes of BA, Thomson, J2, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and corporate jobs. I've never heard anyone say they regret joining Ryr. Please don't mistake me as a brown nose, Im not but there are very few places where lads with low experience can go, fly 900 hours a year, get exposure to flying in challenging environments and ultimately get their flying career up and running.
I suspect the same argument will be doing the rounds in years to come about people accepting poorer terms than what was previously on offer. I do understand where the argument comes from however market forces drive everything and unfortunately I can't see anything changing for the better.
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I keep reading on this thread people saying things like "it's a stepping stone to something better" "it's a way to get those all important hours etc". You are missing the point, nothing better exists these days, because in order to compete with Ryan Air all the other carriers have had to drop their T and Cs to match! By accepting these S&@t deals you have ruined the whole industry. I am just about to start working for a national flag carrier and the Terms are no better than my first job 11 years ago!!!!
Anyone coming in to this industry be aware there is no pot of gold under the rainbow the Terms you agree to today will possibly be as good as your ever going to get. You have to ask yourself if that's good enough to warrant 120 grands worth of investment! I know what my answer would be.
Anyone coming in to this industry be aware there is no pot of gold under the rainbow the Terms you agree to today will possibly be as good as your ever going to get. You have to ask yourself if that's good enough to warrant 120 grands worth of investment! I know what my answer would be.