Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

[SetStandard]

One slight problem if you hadn't noticed - yes it's dispute time in IAG and I'm not going to get stuck or pay £320 so I'll travel on EZY for £168. Doesn't take many brain cells to work out EZY will be laughing all the way to the bank - that's the result when your competitor take strike action!

All you are doing is strengthening IAG's competitors. The reason EZY can charge £168 is because the haven't got people like you working for them declaring is "dispute time". That is precisely the point. The very thing you are striking over (and further weakening the company) is the main reason why an airline the size of EZY is dominating that market. EZY have much lower overheads and so can afford to charge much less for a ticket!

So not only are you weakening the whole company by promoting a strike, but you are actively giving money (I'm assuming your unions money, because I doubt you would do this if it was your own personal cash) to your main competitors. These competitors are exactly the reason why IAG/BA/IB can't afford to give you what you're striking over!

Are you and your ilk actually for real, or are you all secretly employed by Easyjet, Ryanair and Virgin?

Words fail me.

[Count Niemantznarr]

If you want a lesson in obfuscation, have a look at Wurblesturm's post. Not at all relevant to the topic. As your old scholomaster must have written on your reports at Bedales, 'must try harder'.

Reading through the other posts, I nearly got my violin out. Even had a little tear in my eye. But then I think of all those BA flight crew playing the system, earning shed loads of money on a 58% contract, getting a nice bit of bunce covering a 'hot spot' on their month off, and almost earning full time money.

Nice work if you can get it.

I was just wondering if any BALPA members are going to fly to Spain to support their colleagues? It is one company now after all.

[Heathrow Harry]

I think when we see some realism, of the sort that we've had to adopt in the USA and the UK for twenty years, then you'll get the support - but no-one in Iberia seems to realise that the world does not owe them a living.

Not nice but that's the way things are

[Joetom]

As previous posters mention, Pilot pay is not always so good for the younger/newer chaps.

I understand some airline flying staff (plus many others) are able to reduce income tax in some clever ways, like not living in the same country they get paid in.

I also understand the tax people are looking at ways to collect more tax from the above types, so some people are being squeezed at both ends, lowering of pay/T+C's and increase the the tax they pay, not a great place to be at the moment.

HM Revenue & Customs: Working in the European Economic Area

Sorry for drift, but it all adds up.

[Wirbelsturm]

Should read 'readjusted the target by £30 million, in order to ensure agreement could not be reached, thus giving us an opportunity to unleash a massive amount of hatred on our loyal hard working cabin crew.'

Nope. BASSA didn't make the deadline for 'negotiation' (remember that word?) that ALL the other groups did. Hence the savings amount required was increased.

It's interesting to note that ALL the other departments demanded that BASSA agree to savings BEFORE they would implement their own. I wonder why?

Percentage wise cc cost savings demanded were far far higher than that demanded from other departments, even before the goal posts were changed.

Yep, because, 'percentage wise' CC costs were far, far higher than the going rate for CC in like for like companies. Th T's & C's were still comparible to those 'granted' (not hard fought for as BASSA likes to spout) after privatisation. Leave it too long to modernise and rationalise and the adjustment is very painful. As IB are now finding out.

If you want a lesson in obfuscation, have a look at Wurblesturm's post. Not at all relevant to the topic.

You brought up the irrelevant facts about 'income' not me. I merely wanted to allow the other readers to understand that the pension schemes have benefitted a few whilst the remainder have lost out and your 'headline figures' don't stack up.

The pensions benefits for CSD's from the same period were equally as generous I seem to recall. Add to that their kitchen fitting businesses, brothels and Internet businesses and I'm sure the BASSA members 'incomes' are doing fine.

The relevance of all of this is that some posters, with a pathological hatred of Flight Crew, will post any rubbish they can to twist, turn and distort the truth to fit their own frame of reference. Simple fact is that IB is losing 1.5 million euros a day and something MUST change. Arbitration will be to try and stem the job losses in the current economic environment. Possibly it may succeed but it will only do so at the price of rationalised pay structures and working practices. It's better than being on the dole.

(and I don't have any free shares from the company thanks)

[vctenderness]

Bunkum sorry Duncan in his many guises here is never going to give up is he?

It must be pretty boring when Southampton aren't playing so no reporters job. Tomatoes are not planted yet. No BASSA accounts to pore over. No barbies to go to at Bedfont FC. No Newsletters harping back to World War II and beyond to compose.


Still a nice trip to Madrid is on the cards and a chance to get the Willie Walsh masks out and give the Brutish Airways and Flying pickets T shirts an airing. mind you I'd be a bit careful about winding the Guardia Civil up they are not as cosy as the British Plod!


Mind you a wack on the bonce with a Spanish riot shield might knock some sense in.

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by bex88

In reality it's the Renault Clio and a 70 mile drive away from London to get to where you could afford to live. Still don't let facts get in the way of a great story. We are the fortunate ones as well

Originally Posted by SetStandard

After 5 airlines, 3 redundancies and a merger I can honestly say that my pay packet as a pilot for BA is the worst I have ever had for 9 years. Don't tell me I earn £250,000 when I am just about struggling to break even each month.

You honestly live in a different world to the rest of society.

Hey guys, don't let those mockingbirds tick you off. You should be proud of the way your professionalism in cockpit coupled with your modest (yet completely appropriate for the grave situation the entire industry is in) T+C help in making BA the great company that it is. I am pretty sure that your sacrifice will be recognized and rewarded by your mgmt, as soon as the crisis in Iberia subsides a bit and they turn their attention to the UK part of the operation.

[Wirbelsturm]

I am pretty sure that your sacrifice will be recognized and rewarded by your mgmt, as soon as the crisis in Iberia subsides a bit and they turn their attention to the UK part of the operation.

Good grief, why do we have to go around and around and around the same old rubbish. Ever since I have been in BA we have heard, year after year, the same old threats. It's much like the mythical pilot shortage that is peddaled every year but never appears.

Of course the management are going to come looking for savings, that's their job, if they didn't they'd be sacked. The trick is to evolve with the times and accept that nothing stays the same for ever.

My earnings and pension are nowhere near as grand as those who went before me. I accept that. I understand that those who work with me now are not on as good a deal as I am. They accept that. We all understand that the industry is an ever changing environment that requires the ability to merge, rationalise and evolve. Fuel costs today compared to when I started flying in the 1980's are monsterous. Landing fees, navigation fees, servicing costs, ramp costs, catering costs etc. etc. etc. have all risen massively, not even to talk about the anti aviation tax regieme that past and present govenrments have applied. My earnings over the past 10 years have not substansively changed, after the last major rewrite of the pilots pay system I lost money. That's the way it goes.

The upshot of all of this is that fuel and personnel costs have become the two biggest costs of the company. So, whilst hedging can only contain the fuel costs not reduce them of course the company will come looking to reduce personnel costs.

The difference is that we have handled the change over the past 20 years, bit by bit until we have a system now that is flexible and puts forward a quantifyable, fixed cost, per hour rate to the company.

If it needs to be adjusted again then that is what we shall negotiate.

This isn't about a bunch of playground bullies shouting 'you'll be next' this is about stemming massive losses in a very cut throat industry and it is going to hurt some people. Sorry but thats the nub of it as unpleasant as it is for those affected.

[Clandestino]

It's great to see that you have adapted in 20 past years and that you are all right, Jack.

[Wirbelsturm]

It's great to see that you have adapted in 20 past years and that you are all right, Jack.

And what do you want to see BA do? We all take huge paycuts so that IB can continue in it's loss making form? Sorry that isn't going to happen. Anyone can see that IB cannot continue in it's current form. Blaming everyone else or haranguing them for not supporting or paying for your position isn't going to help.

I have accepted alot of change over my 25+ years of flying, most of which has been detrimental. I accept it and get on with the job. Explain to me again why 'I'm all right Jack'?

Welcome to the real world.

[Clandestino]

Well, English is not my mother tongue so I am probably missing something - why the tone when I fully agree with you?

I am pretty sure that if...

Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm

it is going to hurt some people. Sorry but thats the nub of it as unpleasant as it is for those affected.

....ever comes to your position, you will maintain stiff upper lip in the most British way as...

Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm

I have accepted alot of change over my 25+ years of flying, most of which has been detrimental. I accept it and get on with the job.

Sir, you have my admiration. Sorry for calling you Jack, I have mistaken you for someone else.

[Wirbelsturm]

Well, English is not my mother tongue so I am probably missing something - why the tone when I fully agree with you?

My apologies, I also speak three languages and make mistakes in the other two so I fully understand where you are coming from. I obviously misinterpreted the tone.

Unlike the Unionists who are posting on this thread who would like nothing more than to see the whole insdustry nationalised so they can return to their brotherhood of Union power under Our Master McKlunky, most of us who post on here are realists.

I mean it truely when I say that I feel for anyone loosing a job in this current environment. I have taken a pay cut and seen my income decrease relatively over the past few years, the same as my colleagues. Unfortunately it is the nature of a service industry in difficult times.

Will I maintain a 'stiff upper lip' probably. If it were to come I would either change company or change job. It may come, I'm getting too old now to justify jumping ship again. I have other abilities and qualifications as, in the past, I too have been subject to uncertainty over employment.

The plain fact is that IB cannot continue 'as is', eventually the money will run out and you would be faced with a situation similar to AlItalia where the AOC is revoked, a new AOC under a different name is issued and new 'take it or leave it' contracts are sent only to those who the company deem they want back. I have seen it happen to friends in Italy. It isn't pleasant.

[Skyrider01]

Thank you BASSA

As a SEPLA Iberia pilot I want to thank BASSA for their support .

On the other hand, our fellow British Airways BALPA pilots are missing, but not in action. Not that we expected otherwise.

Never in the field of human conflict was so little owed by so many to so many.

We shall never surrender.

[Charlie Pop]

Yes you will, because ultimately the Rajoy government has no money to bail you out and they'd rather see IB shed 4000 jobs than go bankrupt. There's no cash left and nobody is going to bail you out. When you are forced to choose between 75% of what you had or 100% of nothing we all know exactly what you'll do. That is the real world.

[Skyrider01]

You know nothing Charlie Pop.

IAG wants to bail us. We won't let them. As you said the goverment has no money, Iberia does, in fact more than €2000 million wich is what the British folks want from us to cover part of their enourmous debt, more than €6000 million. British is an agonising company that will kill everthing that stays close to it.

We know that we might have to reduce our wages and we are willing to do it in order to save our beloved company, but we would burn it before a penny goes to BAWs pension funds.

The real world is that we have money and they have debt.

[cldrvr]

Let me give you the highlights again.

-475Mn operating LOSS 2009
-28Mn operating LOSS 2010
-98Mn operating LOSS 2011
-317Mn operating LOSS - Jan-Sep 2012

Then you guys spend 450Mn on early retirements, 395Mn on Fleet and 340Mn on debt repayment.

You guys did make 110Mn on selling Amadeus, I will give you that. You guys are in the wrong business....

Oh and as of Sep 12 you guys are burning through 1.7Mn a day, but I reckon that number has gone up quite a bit since then, oh and your last strike cost you 100Mn.

Do I need to continue?

[cessnapete]

IB Strike

What is so sad in this dispute is the traveling public don't care. Not much of a mention in European papers. Most travellers get by on Easyjet and other carriers who provide a better service.
Iberia have a very poor customer service reputation and people avoid them at all costs.
If you go on strike you must have a bargaining point, or a position of strength.
Whatever the anti BA sentiment, they are not willing to continually subsidise a heavily top heavy,loss making Company,from BA profits.
BA staff went through the hard cost cutting some years back.

[Wirbelsturm]

but we would burn it before a penny goes to BAWs pension funds.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it was specifically written into the merger agreement that what you insinuate couldn't happen.

IB money CAN NOT BE USED FOR SUCH PURPOSES.

Find another hook.

[Skyrider01]

Obviously you haven't read the meter agreement

[Skyrider01]

I think you have to quit reading The Sun and retake your algebra lessons.

But the point is not that, the question is ¿Will BAW pilots honour the agreements BALPA signed with SEPLA or are they too busy flying as stewards?