Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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So, how does IB get out of IAG? Certainly not of it's own violition. IB is owned by IAG so can not simply withdraw it's supposed membership in a huff.
And what exactly has gone to the Brits? It seems that because WW is CEO of IAG, the business is viewed as solely British. Go take alook at the IAG wbsite and look at the Board of Directors, the Senior Management and so on.
Then re-read your post and consider again your comments.
Finally, how long do you think an IB business in it's current format and losing so much money would survive on it's own? Again, go look at some stats on business performance in Spain, unemployment figures and outlook forecasts.
And what exactly has gone to the Brits? It seems that because WW is CEO of IAG, the business is viewed as solely British. Go take alook at the IAG wbsite and look at the Board of Directors, the Senior Management and so on.
Then re-read your post and consider again your comments.
Finally, how long do you think an IB business in it's current format and losing so much money would survive on it's own? Again, go look at some stats on business performance in Spain, unemployment figures and outlook forecasts.
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"So, how does IB get out of IAG?"
The Spanish Government are backing the unions and the separation. BA through IAG have raped Iberia, it is time they dumped BA.
Of course Iberia have their problems, but BA are cashing in on it and screwing them.
The Spanish Government are backing the unions and the separation. BA through IAG have raped Iberia, it is time they dumped BA.
Of course Iberia have their problems, but BA are cashing in on it and screwing them.
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@ Local Variation - well said 
I have just read on the El Pais website that the Iberia Pilots union are demanding Iberia withdraws from the merger with BA, as we know this is not even correct, they are both owned by IAG. SEPLA are a bunch of morons.
I have just read on the El Pais website that the Iberia Pilots union are demanding Iberia withdraws from the merger with BA, as we know this is not even correct, they are both owned by IAG. SEPLA are a bunch of morons.
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BA have "stolen" profitable routes from IB
Ba have used the 4,000 mill € IB had pre merger to buy new aircraft 380,787,777 and balance their huge pension fraud.
...... and what is IB getting some old fashion 330s
I'm not saying IB is perfect by any means but in this occasion it must feel like rape.
Ba have used the 4,000 mill € IB had pre merger to buy new aircraft 380,787,777 and balance their huge pension fraud.
...... and what is IB getting some old fashion 330s
I'm not saying IB is perfect by any means but in this occasion it must feel like rape.
Last edited by B757-23; 14th Nov 2012 at 19:12.
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No wonder Iberia is in trouble when the Spanish can't even read...
And btw, BA has no 380s nor 787s, so stop this BS at last.
And btw, BA has no 380s nor 787s, so stop this BS at last.
Last edited by criss; 14th Nov 2012 at 18:32.
Go take alook at the IAG wbsite and look at the Board of Directors, the Senior Management and so on.
IAG - International Airlines Group - Board of Directors
B757-23
BA have "stolen" profitable routes from IB
Ba have used the 4,000 mill € IB had pre merger to buy new aircraft
I'll add this piece of background reading:
BA
Interesting comment here:
...
but hey, sure, it's all BA's fault
Edit to add for the pension fraud theorists:
One read of this:
, http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...mergerplan.pdf,
Will reveal, amongst other things, this:
No doubt there's lots more there of interest, like the ring fencing of Iberia's money.........
BA
Interesting comment here:
Rafael Sánchez-Lozano, the Spanish carrier’s chief executive, said: “Iberia is in a fight for survival. It is unprofitable in all its markets.”
He added: “We have to take tough decisions now to save the company and return it to profitability. Unless we take radical action to introduce permanent structural change, the future for the airline is bleak.”
Sánchez-Lozano said the company was burning €1.7m every day and had to modernise because its cost base is “significantly higher” than its main competitors in Spain and Latin America.
He added: “We have to take tough decisions now to save the company and return it to profitability. Unless we take radical action to introduce permanent structural change, the future for the airline is bleak.”
Sánchez-Lozano said the company was burning €1.7m every day and had to modernise because its cost base is “significantly higher” than its main competitors in Spain and Latin America.
but hey, sure, it's all BA's fault
Edit to add for the pension fraud theorists:
One read of this:
, http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...mergerplan.pdf,
Will reveal, amongst other things, this:
(viii) IAG and Iberia Operadora will not provide any guarantee to any pension
scheme operated by British Airways or use any cash or credit facilities
belonging or available to them to fund any such scheme.
scheme operated by British Airways or use any cash or credit facilities
belonging or available to them to fund any such scheme.
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Nov 2012 at 19:22.
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Quote:
BA have "stolen" profitable routes from IB
Name them.
JNB. A once profitable route for IB, stopped by BA with pax now going through LHR.
Google BA in the spanish press and you will see just what the locals think of BA and IAG. The government has had enough of BA just as Qantas did.
BA have "stolen" profitable routes from IB
Name them.
JNB. A once profitable route for IB, stopped by BA with pax now going through LHR.
Google BA in the spanish press and you will see just what the locals think of BA and IAG. The government has had enough of BA just as Qantas did.
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Wiggy
Just to mention some:JNB, some MEX nowadays done via LHR, previously direct route from Madrid.
For all the non bias out there I wish you could read this
¿Cómo ha llegado Iberia a esto?
Of course BA management keeping very happy IB CEO and his mates, it's a
f...g disgrace
Just to mention some:JNB, some MEX nowadays done via LHR, previously direct route from Madrid.
For all the non bias out there I wish you could read this
¿Cómo ha llegado Iberia a esto?
Of course BA management keeping very happy IB CEO and his mates, it's a
f...g disgrace
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There is, of course Iberias' most profitable route - you know, the one from LHR to JFK flown by BA in BA aircraft, that IB get a slice of because of the whole IAG thing. Perhaps they don't want that route anymore?
As for reading the link above - it is a blog, i.e. one persons opinion. Worse than that it is poorly researched and merely displays the authors own prejudices. It is, at best, a sloppy bit of journalism (if indeed you can call it that). Like most conspiracy theories when the facts are examined - and when I say facts, I mean verifiable and provable bits of information, not one persons opinion, then the theory is revealed as the work of a crackpot. Which is what we see here.
As for reading the link above - it is a blog, i.e. one persons opinion. Worse than that it is poorly researched and merely displays the authors own prejudices. It is, at best, a sloppy bit of journalism (if indeed you can call it that). Like most conspiracy theories when the facts are examined - and when I say facts, I mean verifiable and provable bits of information, not one persons opinion, then the theory is revealed as the work of a crackpot. Which is what we see here.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 14th Nov 2012 at 19:52.
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BA and IB are TOTALLY SEPARATE revenue centres under the balanced Anglo-Spanish IAG. There is no mechanism for either half to subsidise (or be raped!) by the other. Each airline is required to stand or fall by it's own results. PERIOD!
WHAT ON EARTH would be the point of artificially boosting one partner, at the expense of the other???? Smell the coffee!!!!
Take the medicine and survive, or refuse the medicine and die. Frankly the more IB employees make ignorant and inaccurate allegations about the involvement of BA in their predicament, the less I care which route is taken. But at the moment, the second option looks by far the more certain outcome!!
WHAT ON EARTH would be the point of artificially boosting one partner, at the expense of the other???? Smell the coffee!!!!
Take the medicine and survive, or refuse the medicine and die. Frankly the more IB employees make ignorant and inaccurate allegations about the involvement of BA in their predicament, the less I care which route is taken. But at the moment, the second option looks by far the more certain outcome!!
Last edited by 4468; 14th Nov 2012 at 19:51.
B757-23
"Stolen" routes:
Wrong, on both counts...
JNB... .........I've been in BA for well over 20 years, and LHR-JNB was a BA route well before I arrived (both non-stop and in days gone by sometimes via NBO, personally flown both routes many times)......
MEX.... Wrong again. It's been a jumbo route for BA well before Iberia arrived on the scene, I've operated that one as well, lots of times, so no, BA haven't stolen that one either.
Wiggy
Just to mention some:JNB, some MEX nowadays done via LHR, previously direct route from Madrid.
Just to mention some:JNB, some MEX nowadays done via LHR, previously direct route from Madrid.
Wrong, on both counts...
JNB...
.........I've been in BA for well over 20 years, and LHR-JNB was a BA route well before I arrived (both non-stop and in days gone by sometimes via NBO, personally flown both routes many times)......MEX....
Wrong again. It's been a jumbo route for BA well before Iberia arrived on the scene, I've operated that one as well, lots of times, so no, BA haven't stolen that one either.
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Nov 2012 at 20:06.
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BA used to fly to Santiago and Caracas. Has IB stolen those routes? Or are they just not profitable for BA any more? BA have been flying to JNB and MEX for years, with the same capacity and almost always full. The idea that BA are going to bump off high yield, point to point traffic in favour of low yield transfer traffic from Madrid is as ludicrous as the suggestion that Iberias cash is being transferred to BA. This simply boils down to IB employees seeking to blame anyone and anything else for their predicament. IB offer a low quality, high cost product in the European market and they've been eaten alive by the competition. In the long haul market they offer a low quality, high cost product and are being eaten alive by LAN, TAM, and other emergent carriers. If Spaniards want cheap indirect links to LatAm they can fly TAP or AF, both of whom serve those markets better than BA. The world has moved on, the consumer has more choice, the competition is tougher, there are no more state handouts and IB has simply failed to adapt. IB has hired no pilots in ten years, made no profit in five years. IAG is less than three years old. Whose fault are Iberias woes?
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Anyone fancy a Starbuck's? I'm gonna do some Amazon shopping then will rejoin the thread.
Google, Starbucks, and Amazon... for these multinationals immorality is now standard practice - Comment - Voices - The Independent
Google, Starbucks, and Amazon... for these multinationals immorality is now standard practice - Comment - Voices - The Independent
Last edited by Litebulbs; 14th Nov 2012 at 21:50.
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The tragedy is that Iberia employees are spending all their efforts blaming BA rather than trying to find a way out of this mess. I think they've suddenly realised it's too late to do anything, the horse has bolted and they're screwed. What the management is doing is a disgrace, outsourcing all it's work to low cost. It's a disaster for the industry. If only the company and unions had worked together like BA and BALPA have, to progressively change Ts&Cs, then this could have been avoided, maybe. But then again maybe not. BA very nearly did the same with bmi, and Spanish employment culture has always been one of more powerful unions that say no. Unfortunately, airlines have worked out it's cheaper to simply go around them than bother negotiating with them.
I also think the problem is that the Spanish have always played by their own rules of management that relied on government subsidy which meant they could bend to the whims of the unions without worrying too much about that thing called profit. Or shareholders.
I think what's really upsetting people is a northern European has come in and changed the rules, demanding profitability, and ignoring the unions. Globalisation crash lands on a former sleepy hollow. I think it is a shame they weren't given more time to adapt, and that the Spanish government has brought in laws which are being exploited to outsource jobs to low cost. Even in the UK it would be illegal to sack a load of employees and bring in new ones on low Ts&Cs - it's called constructive dismissal. How is this happening in Spain?
I also think the problem is that the Spanish have always played by their own rules of management that relied on government subsidy which meant they could bend to the whims of the unions without worrying too much about that thing called profit. Or shareholders.
I think what's really upsetting people is a northern European has come in and changed the rules, demanding profitability, and ignoring the unions. Globalisation crash lands on a former sleepy hollow. I think it is a shame they weren't given more time to adapt, and that the Spanish government has brought in laws which are being exploited to outsource jobs to low cost. Even in the UK it would be illegal to sack a load of employees and bring in new ones on low Ts&Cs - it's called constructive dismissal. How is this happening in Spain?
Last edited by Propellerhead; 15th Nov 2012 at 09:13.
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From the BALPA website:
'We are dismayed by the sheer scale of the proposed job losses and pay cuts announced today by Iberia. In our view, the proposed measures are highly disproportionate and likely to result in further, deeply damaging industrial disputes in the Spanish flag carrier. It seems that Iberia has spent so much time outsourcing its flying to subsidiary airlines and franchise operators that it is now being forced to turn against its own core operation in Madrid.
'This retrograde approach goes against the key underlying principle of the Iberia-BA merger that was welcomed at the time by the Iberia and BA pilot groups - to achieve the balanced long-term development of the Madrid and London hubs and ensure a reasonable division of opportunities between Iberia and BA. It is particularly disappointing that Iberia is embarking on a new round of cuts when the airline should, in our view, be concentrating first on implementing the substantial short-haul cost-savings identified by the Spanish government arbitrator and accepted by SEPLA, the Spanish pilots' association, and second on exploiting profitable long-haul opportunities in the fast growing economies of Latin America.
'Before the airline becomes embroiled in a further round of unnecessary industrial confrontation, we call on Iberia and IAG management to reconsider their proposals and redouble their efforts to reach an agreement with SEPLA.'
'We are dismayed by the sheer scale of the proposed job losses and pay cuts announced today by Iberia. In our view, the proposed measures are highly disproportionate and likely to result in further, deeply damaging industrial disputes in the Spanish flag carrier. It seems that Iberia has spent so much time outsourcing its flying to subsidiary airlines and franchise operators that it is now being forced to turn against its own core operation in Madrid.
'This retrograde approach goes against the key underlying principle of the Iberia-BA merger that was welcomed at the time by the Iberia and BA pilot groups - to achieve the balanced long-term development of the Madrid and London hubs and ensure a reasonable division of opportunities between Iberia and BA. It is particularly disappointing that Iberia is embarking on a new round of cuts when the airline should, in our view, be concentrating first on implementing the substantial short-haul cost-savings identified by the Spanish government arbitrator and accepted by SEPLA, the Spanish pilots' association, and second on exploiting profitable long-haul opportunities in the fast growing economies of Latin America.
'Before the airline becomes embroiled in a further round of unnecessary industrial confrontation, we call on Iberia and IAG management to reconsider their proposals and redouble their efforts to reach an agreement with SEPLA.'