Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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Iberia to fire 313 pilots ?
Will Iberia fire 313 pilots ? As the Spanish press announced,
From the latest news non pilots unions have announced strikes but guess Sepla is still negotiating. Curious about how many middle managers are still left in Iberia ?
From the El Pais newspaper
¨International Airlines Group, the holding company for the merger of British Airways and Iberia, on Tuesday formally presented a labor force adjustment plan (ERE) for the loss-making Spanish carrier that reduces the number of jobs to be shed to 3,807 from the 4,500 it initially announced in November.
The presentation of the ERE opens a process of consultation with labor representatives that will last for 30 days. “This is part of Iberia's transformation plan to introduce permanent structural changes across the airline to stem its losses enabling it to grow profitably in the future,” IAG said in a statement.
In documentation presented to the Economy and Labor Ministries, IAG said Iberia needs to shed jobs because of economic, organizational and production reasons. In a separate statement, IAG said Iberia had lost 850 million euros between 2008 and September of last year, including 262 million in the first nine months of 2012. As a result, it said drastic measures were needed to cut costs and improve revenues to make the company viable.
IAG also wants Iberia to cut its route capacity by 15 percent this year and for the airline’s employees to accept wage cuts.
In negotiations with the labor unions before filing the ERE, the management offered to reduce the number of layoffs to 3,147 but failed to reach an agreement with worker representatives. After the talks broke down, unions representing ground staff and cabin crew called for 15 days of strikes between this month and the next, thus avoiding the Easter holiday period, which takes place at the end of March.
The stoppages are due to take place in the periods February 18-22, March 4-8 and March 18-22. Europa Press quoted Public Works Minister Ana Pastor as saying that Spain could not afford to allow itself to lose 10 million euros a day because of the strikes. The minister called for an “agreement and understanding between the two parties.”
Pastor met on Monday with Iberia’s chief executive, Rafael Sánchez-Lozano and labor union representatives, including from the pilots’ union Sepla. “I represent the rights of all Spaniards and respecting the right to strike, will try by all means to see that the right to mobility is respected,” the minister said.
¨¨
From the latest news non pilots unions have announced strikes but guess Sepla is still negotiating. Curious about how many middle managers are still left in Iberia ?
From the El Pais newspaper
¨International Airlines Group, the holding company for the merger of British Airways and Iberia, on Tuesday formally presented a labor force adjustment plan (ERE) for the loss-making Spanish carrier that reduces the number of jobs to be shed to 3,807 from the 4,500 it initially announced in November.
The presentation of the ERE opens a process of consultation with labor representatives that will last for 30 days. “This is part of Iberia's transformation plan to introduce permanent structural changes across the airline to stem its losses enabling it to grow profitably in the future,” IAG said in a statement.
In documentation presented to the Economy and Labor Ministries, IAG said Iberia needs to shed jobs because of economic, organizational and production reasons. In a separate statement, IAG said Iberia had lost 850 million euros between 2008 and September of last year, including 262 million in the first nine months of 2012. As a result, it said drastic measures were needed to cut costs and improve revenues to make the company viable.
IAG also wants Iberia to cut its route capacity by 15 percent this year and for the airline’s employees to accept wage cuts.
In negotiations with the labor unions before filing the ERE, the management offered to reduce the number of layoffs to 3,147 but failed to reach an agreement with worker representatives. After the talks broke down, unions representing ground staff and cabin crew called for 15 days of strikes between this month and the next, thus avoiding the Easter holiday period, which takes place at the end of March.
The stoppages are due to take place in the periods February 18-22, March 4-8 and March 18-22. Europa Press quoted Public Works Minister Ana Pastor as saying that Spain could not afford to allow itself to lose 10 million euros a day because of the strikes. The minister called for an “agreement and understanding between the two parties.”
Pastor met on Monday with Iberia’s chief executive, Rafael Sánchez-Lozano and labor union representatives, including from the pilots’ union Sepla. “I represent the rights of all Spaniards and respecting the right to strike, will try by all means to see that the right to mobility is respected,” the minister said.
¨¨
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the reality is they are treated like a Leper colony.
Your welcome to chant to the bruvva's on your own Count/Wonker.
Wow, what a conversation.
As far as Iberia goes I would welcome all the pilots onto a similar contract as BA. I don't think the discussion is directed at any part of the workforce, more that IB has to restructure to survive into the future. Unfortunately that will mean a rapid and large alteration of employees T's & C's due to the lack of rationalisation over the long term in the past.
IB must be made into an investment vehicle again.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 14th Feb 2013 at 08:25.
I'm calling it a day anyway and retiring from PPRuNe. Thanks guys, I've thoroughly enjoyed the humour and banter.
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So now the Iberia dispute enters the strike zone. Everything is going plan for Willie Walsh. The Iberia unions can clearly see the tactics deployed against them are the same as against the BA cabin crew. Obfuscation, goal posts moved, the bar set impossibly high, the lack of sincerity to reach a negotiated settlement with the unions. And amongst all this angst, the poor passenger.
It used to be that a strike was a failure of management. That customers would be driven away to competitors and thus if at all possible, avoided. With Walsh no such consideration is of any concern, whether he is locking out employees at Aer Lingus, flying empty yet fully catered aircraft during the dispute at BA, or whilst the show of riot police clashing with Iberia employees goes on. Spaniard pitted against Spaniard. A very sad spectacle indeed to witness.
And yet where is the support from the BA flight crew for their Spanish counterparts? We have seen how BA's pilots worked like emissaries of Beelzebub during the cabin crew dispute, fuelled as they were with share options. Yet a senior BA pilot pontificates on this forum that Iberia must be made "an investment vehicle again". And at what cost Wirblesturm? It is fine for BA flight crew, many of whom have an income in excess of Ł250,000 a year, to judge the situation at Iberia. But the current conflict is not about money, it is about breaking the Iberia unions and getting to new contracts. So whilst Wirblesturm may feebly invite Iberia pilots onto BA contracts, the fact is if Iberia flight crew lose this battle with Walsh, the new contracts they will be forced to return to work on, will be grossly inferior to those enjoyed by BA's pilots. Of course not long after that, it will be the BA flight crew joining their colleagues at Iberia on similar contracts, which is the most likely scenario.
Karma is a wonderful thing.
It used to be that a strike was a failure of management. That customers would be driven away to competitors and thus if at all possible, avoided. With Walsh no such consideration is of any concern, whether he is locking out employees at Aer Lingus, flying empty yet fully catered aircraft during the dispute at BA, or whilst the show of riot police clashing with Iberia employees goes on. Spaniard pitted against Spaniard. A very sad spectacle indeed to witness.
And yet where is the support from the BA flight crew for their Spanish counterparts? We have seen how BA's pilots worked like emissaries of Beelzebub during the cabin crew dispute, fuelled as they were with share options. Yet a senior BA pilot pontificates on this forum that Iberia must be made "an investment vehicle again". And at what cost Wirblesturm? It is fine for BA flight crew, many of whom have an income in excess of Ł250,000 a year, to judge the situation at Iberia. But the current conflict is not about money, it is about breaking the Iberia unions and getting to new contracts. So whilst Wirblesturm may feebly invite Iberia pilots onto BA contracts, the fact is if Iberia flight crew lose this battle with Walsh, the new contracts they will be forced to return to work on, will be grossly inferior to those enjoyed by BA's pilots. Of course not long after that, it will be the BA flight crew joining their colleagues at Iberia on similar contracts, which is the most likely scenario.
Karma is a wonderful thing.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 20th Feb 2013 at 07:55.
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Duncan,
Honestly I have missed your posts/rants
If it wasn't for the fact that you obviously have factually no idea what you are talking about and continue with your long lost rampage, it would actually be interesting rather than entertaining.
As far as Iberia is concerned and their problems I wish them all well in joining the 21st century, and genuinely hope the pain isn't too bad.
There were massive (22,000) layoffs in BA during privatisation in 1986? and those remaining were much better off and didn't exactly complain about their lost colleagues....!!!
Since then BA employees have had their working practices etc etc drastically changed. Since I joined as a DEP my work has increased, relative pay decreased and we are far more efficient. It has been a gradual transformation after the initial privatisation shock and still continues.
Iberia unfortunately are taking the "hit" pretty much all in one go, but it is still necessary to survive/prosper and compete with the other airlines in Spain.
Honestly I have missed your posts/rants
If it wasn't for the fact that you obviously have factually no idea what you are talking about and continue with your long lost rampage, it would actually be interesting rather than entertaining.
As far as Iberia is concerned and their problems I wish them all well in joining the 21st century, and genuinely hope the pain isn't too bad.
There were massive (22,000) layoffs in BA during privatisation in 1986? and those remaining were much better off and didn't exactly complain about their lost colleagues....!!!
Since then BA employees have had their working practices etc etc drastically changed. Since I joined as a DEP my work has increased, relative pay decreased and we are far more efficient. It has been a gradual transformation after the initial privatisation shock and still continues.
Iberia unfortunately are taking the "hit" pretty much all in one go, but it is still necessary to survive/prosper and compete with the other airlines in Spain.
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Ł250,000!!! "Many BA pilots"!!!!!!??? It may surprise you but I earn less than 1/4 of that and allowances are less than some cabin crew. It's not a dig at anyone be it flight crew or cabin crew. But please be aware that not all BA crews are as you paint them. That is all
BA flight crew, many of whom have an income in excess of Ł250,000 a year,
I guess it's not impossible that one or two (and I mean one or two) very senior managers might just possibly get close, and if one wanted to be devious I guess you could include one or two of the entrepreneurs who may have boosted their income by other means.....but failing that
Last edited by wiggy; 20th Feb 2013 at 15:45.
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Count
I'm sure none of the BA crews want to see people lose their jobs if it can be avoided but that is the point - Iberia has been overmanned for years and if the airline (BOTH BA& Iberia) are to survive there have to be cuts
I haven't seen anyone from Iberia accept this basic fact on here - if the cuts don't happen you'll ALL be on the street and desperate to get a job - and the only alternative will be Ryanair - your choice........
I'm sure none of the BA crews want to see people lose their jobs if it can be avoided but that is the point - Iberia has been overmanned for years and if the airline (BOTH BA& Iberia) are to survive there have to be cuts
I haven't seen anyone from Iberia accept this basic fact on here - if the cuts don't happen you'll ALL be on the street and desperate to get a job - and the only alternative will be Ryanair - your choice........
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Well, fair play I guess. They joined in the glory days, worked hard through their career and then in the twilight years they were given 10 more. You can't blame them for pensions performance, tax law and eu employment law. But it's like saying a vast number of BA cabin crew are so wealthy they need not work when in reality there are very few and most work really hard to pay their bills. I hear all this rubbish about flight deck and cabin crew but I have not seen it. I expect to treat my colleagues with respect and understanding of their role. In return I expect the same. We all have a job to do so let's just get on and do it.
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Lacking negotiating Skills
There appears to be poor negotiating skills on the part of Iberia and IAG.
The unions are offering reduced pay and increased productivity. Why not make a win-win deal ?
They do not want to budge on job cuts, and are prepared to let the company lose millions of Euros from strikes.
To not negotiate a deal where you save some jobs and you save millions in strikes to show you have bigger balls to break the unions. How is this good business acumen ? Yes agreed Iberia needs to more efficient and make cuts, if they cut 30% rather than 20% of the directors , dont think anyone would notice,
with those 10% you could save many jobs for 10 directors.
My opinion is Willie Walsh does not understand the Spanish character when it comes to pride. Lets see now the pilots are uniting with cabin crew and ground staff. They appear to be more united, and many have nothing to lose.
The press..
¨Thousands of striking workers of Spanish flag-carrier Iberia protested noisily in Madrid this week, furious at management's plans to cut 3800 jobs following its merger with British Airways.
To the din of horns and smoking firecrackers, workers massed outside the company's headquarters, waving red and yellow Spanish flags and signs such as "Get your dirty hands off Iberia" and "British go home".
That was a reference to British Airways, which merged with Iberia in 2011 to form the International Airlines Group (IAG), in a tie-up aimed at slashing costs.
The group announced last week that it would axe 3800 jobs at Iberia, out of a total 20 000.
Cabin crew, ground staff and maintenance workers responded by announcing three five-day strikes, the first of which started on Monday.
Spain is in a recession that has thrown millions out of work and driven the unemployment rate over 26 percent.
IAG said it was open to talks with unions during a 30-day consultation process but did not appear to have budged on the job cuts.
"The management does not want to negotiate, they say their hands are tied," said one protestor on Wednesday, Federico Castro (68) a retired Iberia flight steward.
He said he was demonstrating for his son (32) who is also an Iberia steward and now risks losing his job.
"This is a total dismantling of the company by British Airways," said Castro. "They are turning Iberia into a low-cost airline for the benefit of British Airways."
Striking Iberia workers clashed with baton-wielding riot police on Monday at Madrid-Barajas airport, where thousands of strikers tried to force their way into Terminal Four.
Iberia workers also plan to strike from March 4-8 and again from March 18-22, with a minimum service operating.
The flag carrier said it scrapped 415 flights across Spain and Europe for this week.¨
The unions are offering reduced pay and increased productivity. Why not make a win-win deal ?
They do not want to budge on job cuts, and are prepared to let the company lose millions of Euros from strikes.
To not negotiate a deal where you save some jobs and you save millions in strikes to show you have bigger balls to break the unions. How is this good business acumen ? Yes agreed Iberia needs to more efficient and make cuts, if they cut 30% rather than 20% of the directors , dont think anyone would notice,
with those 10% you could save many jobs for 10 directors.
My opinion is Willie Walsh does not understand the Spanish character when it comes to pride. Lets see now the pilots are uniting with cabin crew and ground staff. They appear to be more united, and many have nothing to lose.
The press..
¨Thousands of striking workers of Spanish flag-carrier Iberia protested noisily in Madrid this week, furious at management's plans to cut 3800 jobs following its merger with British Airways.
To the din of horns and smoking firecrackers, workers massed outside the company's headquarters, waving red and yellow Spanish flags and signs such as "Get your dirty hands off Iberia" and "British go home".
That was a reference to British Airways, which merged with Iberia in 2011 to form the International Airlines Group (IAG), in a tie-up aimed at slashing costs.
The group announced last week that it would axe 3800 jobs at Iberia, out of a total 20 000.
Cabin crew, ground staff and maintenance workers responded by announcing three five-day strikes, the first of which started on Monday.
Spain is in a recession that has thrown millions out of work and driven the unemployment rate over 26 percent.
IAG said it was open to talks with unions during a 30-day consultation process but did not appear to have budged on the job cuts.
"The management does not want to negotiate, they say their hands are tied," said one protestor on Wednesday, Federico Castro (68) a retired Iberia flight steward.
He said he was demonstrating for his son (32) who is also an Iberia steward and now risks losing his job.
"This is a total dismantling of the company by British Airways," said Castro. "They are turning Iberia into a low-cost airline for the benefit of British Airways."
Striking Iberia workers clashed with baton-wielding riot police on Monday at Madrid-Barajas airport, where thousands of strikers tried to force their way into Terminal Four.
Iberia workers also plan to strike from March 4-8 and again from March 18-22, with a minimum service operating.
The flag carrier said it scrapped 415 flights across Spain and Europe for this week.¨
Count
I said income not pay
Given the vast majority of current pilots are in NAPS, not APS, I'd still suggest a figure of 250K for income from BA plus NAPS pension is still wrong.
Last edited by wiggy; 21st Feb 2013 at 11:17.
,but not here in the real world ,unless you are cheaper than Vueling,RyR etc.
I do not write this with any glee,wish the best for BA pilots as a whole even if some of the posters here deserve otherwise.
Feel free to point the righteous finger at Sepla if it makes you feel cozy and safe,or read the writing on the wall and prepare.Your choice.
I do not write this with any glee,wish the best for BA pilots as a whole even if some of the posters here deserve otherwise.
Feel free to point the righteous finger at Sepla if it makes you feel cozy and safe,or read the writing on the wall and prepare.Your choice.
i remember the days; "guiris go home", when i was flying a contract in spain.
so, can you ib-sepla-guys please stay in spain??? thanks!
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I'm going to have to disagree with you Gammon. I came over here with a similar background expecting the worst, but I have found almost all the crew to be pleasant and easy to work with. Any 'tension' can be melted by a short conversation. Perhaps things are different here in shorthaul land.
As far as SELPA is concerned, most people I fly with genuinely wishes them well. Nobody is under the illusion our T&Cs are immune from further attack. Being completely selfish, the better deal you get the less we will look like a target next round of cost cutting. Good luck!
As far as SELPA is concerned, most people I fly with genuinely wishes them well. Nobody is under the illusion our T&Cs are immune from further attack. Being completely selfish, the better deal you get the less we will look like a target next round of cost cutting. Good luck!
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All because a few hundred pilots operated as cabin crew during the recent strike to keep the airline flying and prevent it from going bust. They shepards in the union pass down the story that "many thousands volunteered". They truth is a few hundred did, less operated why? Because C/C came to work and the other volunteer C/C were fellow unite members, talk about solidarity hey? The main issue really is that the viscous and vile C/C (to which I think there a very few) rile up the rest hard working decent crew. Being on the aircraft just makes the pilots an easy target. He ho you can't win everything.
I doubt it will last as the high value routes will soon become crewed by mixed fleet so they've solved the issue themselves in many respects.
I doubt it will last as the high value routes will soon become crewed by mixed fleet so they've solved the issue themselves in many respects.
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recent strike to keep the airline flying and prevent it from going bust.
Anyway a massive congratulations to all our colleagues in IB who have forced WW into an embarrassing climb down - forced into arbitration. Amazing scenes of 100% support. I suspect a much more palatable offer is on the way.
There will be tears in someone's Guinness this weekend.
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The non-binding arbitration is just foreplay Super Stall.
When WWalsh completely ignores the mediator,as expected,the Government will step in with a binding arbitration as they have stated that strikes in Semana Santa are not what Spain needs,and will not happen.
When the mediator was accepted by the parts Sanchez-Lozano joked(in front of the State secretary of Infrastructures) that he could "write a book on how to ignore a government Laudo".This didn't cause the mirth he expected so,to patch things up,he added that " mediator or not their plan was going ahead and on March 14 the ERE(layoff) would be implemented".
Said ERE is,btw,gonna get slaughtered in court inside one month for many reasons:
-IAG as a group is making money
-Ibxpress,Vueling and BA are growing
-There is already a voluntary ERE in force which IB is refusing to grant
-Bad faith on IB's side during ERE terms negotiation.With the Government as star witness
ERE's are being invalidated for just one of the reasons stated above so go figure..
What scares me is the "full speed ahead" attitude of management against everything and everybody.Looks like they may be planning to completely shut IB down,keep the brand and maybe re-open later on...far fetched as it sounds.
If all this is just bluster to get the Unions to back down it is clearly not working too well at all.
We have been forced into a situation where we cannot back down,it would mean mid term extinction...i find it hard to think this has not been planned.
Either we are being managed by total morons or there is something very drastic coming soon.Both options are bad.
When WWalsh completely ignores the mediator,as expected,the Government will step in with a binding arbitration as they have stated that strikes in Semana Santa are not what Spain needs,and will not happen.
When the mediator was accepted by the parts Sanchez-Lozano joked(in front of the State secretary of Infrastructures) that he could "write a book on how to ignore a government Laudo".This didn't cause the mirth he expected so,to patch things up,he added that " mediator or not their plan was going ahead and on March 14 the ERE(layoff) would be implemented".
Said ERE is,btw,gonna get slaughtered in court inside one month for many reasons:
-IAG as a group is making money
-Ibxpress,Vueling and BA are growing
-There is already a voluntary ERE in force which IB is refusing to grant
-Bad faith on IB's side during ERE terms negotiation.With the Government as star witness
ERE's are being invalidated for just one of the reasons stated above so go figure..
What scares me is the "full speed ahead" attitude of management against everything and everybody.Looks like they may be planning to completely shut IB down,keep the brand and maybe re-open later on...far fetched as it sounds.
If all this is just bluster to get the Unions to back down it is clearly not working too well at all.
We have been forced into a situation where we cannot back down,it would mean mid term extinction...i find it hard to think this has not been planned.
Either we are being managed by total morons or there is something very drastic coming soon.Both options are bad.