Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by WatersideWonker

Aporrizaje, I'm sorry to inform you that the majority of your counterparts think of nobody but themselves. They'll stab anybody in the back to retain their cushy salary, pensions etc. - absolutely zero morals whatsoever.

Blimey, have you seen the light WWW? Thats a very honest appraisal of the BASSA reps and their desperate attempt to preserve their cushy lifestyles at the expense of the rest of the cabin crew. Still, didn't work out did it? Duncan got the sack for not turning up and Nicky and the kitchen fitter didn't do so well out of it either!

As Count states they were given shares as part of their deal and 'extras' to work as volunteer cabin crew. No doubt the boys from Blighty, given the opportunity, will be packing their sombreros and sun lotion to assist their master.

Where are my shares? I got no shares. You ought to lay off the crack cocaine.

[Watersidewonker]

After three, or was it four, deadlines for negotiated change had passed

Should read : After agreeing 3 or 4 times, the goal posts were changed again.

Where are my shares? I got no shares

You get them next year. You're so money orientated, I'm surprised that slipped your mind.

Duncan got the sack for not turning up

Man with guts who preferred to stick up for his membership in crucial talks at a crucial time. Considerable more backbone than you Hand.

Nicky and the kitchen fitter didn't do so well out of it either!

They're over the moon hand. Good new jobs, doing very well with considerable compensation package.

[Hand Solo]

Sure the goal posts were changed. They told you in advance they would and they did. That's what happens when you miss deadlines. There's a price to be paid for trying to string everyone along.

You also seem very confident about the shares. Aren't they based on performance and profitability targets being achieved? I'll believe it when I see some cash in the bank. Shame BASSA turned down the opportunity for you to share in the companys success.

Duncan didn't have backbone, he had ego. Thought he was a senior manager, BA laughed at his delusions of grandeur then fired him when he didn't show up for work. If he'd kept the membership records in order, as was his job, instead of outsourcing them he'd have saved you a trip to the High Court and wouldn't have needed to help himself to days off.

I'm sure Nicky and the kitchen fitter are delighted with their handouts from Unite. Nothing like the union looking after its own with the members subs. Still, it's a funny kind of victory you had over BA when the three of them weren't reinstated.

[Watersidewonker]

If he'd kept the membership records in order, as was his job, instead of outsourcing them he'd have saved you a trip to the High Court and wouldn't have needed to help himself to days off.

He no showed for a BA meeting, nothing to do with court. Another BA plan was implemented when they refused to inform BASSA who took severance. BASSA could only rely on the individual informing the admin section as all deductions are through the BA payroll. Fortunately for BA a few 'forgot' to inform BASSA.

handouts from Unite

Errr no - job back or considerable compensation from BA was the offer. They chose the compensation. And by the way there has been absolutely no payouts whatsoever from BASSA/Unite to anybody, including your friend. Sorry Hand, it looks like it has been more of a hit to your company than you realised.

[Artie Fufkin]

Why keep feeding these trolls?

[Watersidewonker]

Hopefully they'll just get bored and leave AF.

[Artie Fufkin]

[Hand Solo]

Wrong again Wonker, that crystal meth is really playing tricks on your mind! Uncle no-showed for flying duties, the information from his Employment Tribunal is all in the public domain. The court reference is about BASSAs trip up the high court when BA got an injunction to block your strike. Nothing to do with BA not telling you who took severance, BASSA had balloted many hundreds of crew who weren't BASSA members, hundreds of whom were still working for BA. Oops! Uncle should have spend more time keeping on top of that. He could also have spent a bit more time studying the the requirements for notifying the ballot results as that would have saved you a couple more trips to court! Unite would have had even more money to compensate Nicky and kitchen man! They certainly weren't offered they're jobs back by BA after their misdemeanours!!

BTW how are Crew Defence getting on these days? And who did pay for the OH Parsons Christmas party?

[Watersidewonker]

Correct he no showed for a flying duty to attend a crucial meeting. Hardly a sackable offence in my eyes - maybe a written warning. If he'd been a pilot, perhaps an informal verbal warning would do.
The initial injunction focused on crew who had been balloted and left the business.
The law was proved to be so against the Union in ballot result notification and this will never happen again after a recent RMT court ruling.
Don't know much about crewdefence only that they exist and it's the first I've heard about OHP having a Christmas party.
Please try to keep focused on the thread title though Hands.

[Hand Solo]

Correct he no showed for a flying duty to attend a crucial meeting.

He no-showed a couple of times, not always for 'crucial' meetings.

Hardly a sackable offence in my eyes - maybe a written warning.

The ET didn't agree with you.

If he'd been a pilot, perhaps an informal verbal warning would do.

Pure speculation on your part, especially as pilots don't no-show for their trips to attend meetings.

The initial injunction focused on crew who had been balloted and left the business.

If Uncle had kept on top of the numbers he might not have had a problem working out how to deal with the severance. It would have been much easier for him if Lala hadn't told all those leaving to vote to stick two fingers up at BA. Those two should talk more!

The law was proved to be so against the Union in ballot result notification and this will never happen again after a recent RMT court ruling.

No it wasn't. The law said you need to make reasonable efforts to ensure only those eligible to vote do so (see Lala's comments) and you must notify the results of the ballot in a standard way with a number of standard pieces of information (Uncle can't count it seems). BASSA failed to clear either of these exceedingly low hurdles.

Don't know much about crewdefence only that they exist and it's the first I've heard about OHP having a Christmas party.

Don't be all coy now! I'm sure you've heard of CD, and how they busted BASSA using union funds to pay for a Christmas party for the reps and Oh Parsons! staff.

Please try to keep focused on the thread title though Hands.

Well it's quite important our colleagues in Iberia understand that the clowns who are trying to advise them to fight their management failed utterly when they tried it in the UK, primarily through incompetence. SEPLA would be much better off not repeating those mistakes.

[Watersidewonker]

No it wasn't. The law said you need to make reasonable efforts to ensure only those eligible to vote do so (see Lala's comments) and you must notify the results of the ballot in a standard way with a number of standard pieces of information (Uncle can't count it seems). BASSA failed to clear either of these exceedingly low hurdles.

"The Court of Appeal judgment on 4 March 2011 lifted the two injunctions and clarified the extent of the technical obligations on unions with regard to ballots. Building on its ruling in the British Airways case, it confirmed that genuine and accidental ballot errors can be disregarded, if they are immaterial to the result. It opposed applying a ‘standard of perfection’ for holding ballots, which would ‘set traps or hurdles for the union which have no legitimate purpose or function’."
Court rules for unions in strike dispute
Please educate yourself with the above ruling.

He no-showed a couple of times, not always for 'crucial' meetings.

No he didn't. He'd had no previous warnings.

Quote:
If he'd been a pilot, perhaps an informal verbal warning would do.
Pure speculation on your part, especially as pilots don't no-show for their trips to attend meetings.

It was tongue in cheek referring to the massively discriminatory tactics used against cabin crew compared to pilots. Cook V BA?

Don't be all coy now! I'm sure you've heard of CD, and how they busted BASSA using union funds to pay for a Christmas party for the reps and Oh Parsons! staff.

As I say I don't know too much about CD but I know one thing for sure - all their members are staunch BASSA supporters first and foremost. I know many of them.

Well it's quite important our colleagues in Iberia understand that the clowns who are trying to advise them to fight their management failed utterly when they tried it in the UK, primarily through incompetence. SEPLA would be much better off not repeating those mistakes.

It's important they know we won and achieved an honourable deal. This was in the face of lies being printed in the right wing press, discriminatory tactics, dubious draconian court decisions, the likes of you working against us, bullying and threatening staff to attend work, withdrawal of staff travel concessions etc.
So IB you can win an honourable deal - just as we did.

[Hand Solo]

Please educate yourself with the above ruling.

I'm quite familiar with the ruling thanks, but it doesn't apply retrospectively to BASSA, who failed to comply with the law not once but twice. To paraphrase Lady Bracknell, to fail to comply once may be misfortune, to fail twice looks like carelessness! You'll note the appeal Unite won relates to the second matter (failure to notify members), not the first (inability to add up!). IIRC the RMT's beef over membership numbers was that they had balloted 80ish staff they shouldn't and had told those not entitled to vote not to. A far cry from LaLa's demands that all non-eligible staff should vote! Doh!

No he didn't. He'd had no previous warnings.

Uncle had failed to show for previous rostered duties. It's all in the ET report.

It was tongue in cheek referring to the massively discriminatory tactics used against cabin crew compared to pilots. Cook V BA?

Discriminatory? The only discrimination was that the cabin crew were in dispute and the rest of the company weren't. That's why the cabin crew were treated differently to the pilots, the check in staff, ramp staff, back office, engineers, and indeed everyone else who knuckled down to keep the company in business.

As I say I don't know too much about CD but I know one thing for sure - all their members are staunch BASSA supporters first and foremost. I know many of them.

What, even the ones who quit BASSA? Are you perhaps the individual that Duncan outsourced the membership records to? LOL.

It's important they know we won and achieved an honourable deal. This was in the face of lies being printed in the right wing press, discriminatory tactics, dubious draconian court decisions, the likes of you working against us, bullying and threatening staff to attend work, withdrawal of staff travel concessions etc.
So IB you can win an honourable deal - just as we did.

No, what you got was almost exactly the same deal that BA had offered you months before but your union refused to take, believing instead that they could strongarm BA into giving them something better.

Instead the union tried to bolster weak support for their actions with a string of lies about BA wanting to cut members pay by 50%, other employee groups stealing cabin crew money, conspiracy theories about the crews pet bogeymen (pilots) plotting against them, legal baloney about how libellous and offensive comments on their internet forum couldn't be punished, puffed up statements about the strength of the union and comical adverts placed in the national press that fooled precisely nobody, phoney uncosted savings proposals put before the company and a outright refusal to look economic facts in the face. That all sounds a bit like SEPLAs actions up until now.

What BASSA got was two trips to the High Court, invalid ballots, massive legal bills, poor support amongst their own union members and 2000+ resignations, ineffective action against BA, their members disciplined and fired over Uncles made up legal advice and three of the reps kicked out of the door. Meanwhile BA broke the stranglehold BASSA had on the operation, terminated employment on legacy crew contracts and set up a new and growing rival cabin crew force with much lower costs and completely separate union representation, plus a permanent corps of volunteer cabin crew (iCSP) who can step in to fly when there is disruption. BASSA had to swallow all of this and attempt to salvage some pride by saying it was an 'honourable' deal that protected members earnings - something which BA had been promising from the outset anyway. BASSA had their balls cut off. If SEPLA want to know how not to do it then BASSA are the finest possible example, unless out Spanish colleagues think the most important debate they should be involved in over the next five years is what colour bag tags they should be allowed to display.

[4468]

It's important they know we won and achieved an honourable deal.

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages. Absolutely priceless! If that was 'winning', what would losing have looked like??? BASSA are now totally neutered. All they can concern themselves with these days is what colour bag tags to wear this week!

I feel genuinely sorry for the vast majority of our decent cabin crew. A significant proportion of whom are amongst the best in the industry! BASSA was never really interested in them. It only ever sought to benefit the 'fat cats', with the rabid support of the delusional. Decent folk just got caught in the crossfire!

I well remember BASSA's outrage commencing when CSD became a 'working' position. For those that don't understand the terminology, it meant the senior had to involve themselves in the cabin service!!! The good ones always had, but a significant proportion could be seen on the CCTV watching films all the way across the Atlantic! Of course many BASSA reps are senior cabin crew. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions!

If SEPLA can learn anything from the carnage that BASSA created it is to fight an 'honourable' battle. Just tell the truth with conviction. Don't spread bulls1t that every man and his dog can see through!

If you tell lies, then like BASSA you will simply be crushed.

I hope you get a fair settlement. Our cabin crew's could have been better, had it not been for BASSA!!!

[Watersidewonker]

I'm quite familiar with the ruling thanks, but it doesn't apply retrospectively to BASSA

It's exactly why the ruling was made. The courts were fed up with BA running to them to seek an injunction on minor technicalities that would have had no impact on the final result. They, nor any company, will be able to get the courts to help do their dirty work in future after this ruling.

Discriminatory? The only discrimination was that the cabin crew were in dispute and the rest of the company weren't.

That's not what Judge Mathews reported on 13/02/12 Mr Cook V BA
"Notwithstanding the outcomes were not just different but radically different and in our judgement there is sufficient similarity for us to conclude that the decision to dismiss Mr Cook but not to dismiss f/o S••••••• was so irrational that no employer could reasonably have made it. Verdict: Unfair Dismissal"

What, even the ones who quit BASSA?

There's not one person that I know affiliated to CD who's not a BASSA member and supporter. Pleases don't believe flight deck spin. BASSA membership currently stands just under 10000.

No, what you got was almost exactly the same deal that BA had offered you months before

My God you're coming to your senses - absolutely correct! Almost exactly because we now have contractual assurances going forward, which we didn't have months before - just loose wishy washy terminology.

massive legal bills

To fight injustice, which is more than your weak association would do for you. At least we have balls and stamina. Now it's onwards and upwards to the European courts to fight the Government over the injustice we've faced - can't wait!

2000+ resignations

Wrong. Nearly 10000 members out of an eligible workforce of approx 11000.

new and growing rival cabin crew force with much lower costs and completely separate union representation,

I don't see them as 'rival'. Within the near future they'll be brought into EF/WW.
Midfleet lasted 10 years. Unite being 'completely separate'?

If SEPLA want to know how not to do it then BASSA are the finest possible example

I'd look to BALPA myself. Slowly year by year give up your T&C'S trying to delay the inevitable. So many pilots (and extremely decent ones) have seen the light and are joining Independent Pilots Association IPA.

For those that don't understand the terminology, it meant the senior had to involve themselves in the cabin service!!!

And now from the introduction of the A380, BA want to take them out of the service.

Of course many BASSA reps are senior cabin crew

Incorrect. As of last Julys elections there is an equal mix of CSDs/Pursers/Main crew, pre and post 97 contracts. Please visit the BASSA office for correct names and rank.

[Ancient Observer]

MODs!!!!

Please close this thread. Some other "Ancient" people are trying to re-run a dispute that was closed years ago.

This is about as relevant to the OP as the mangle is to to-day's washing machines.

[bad bear]

I second the proposal Ancient Observer. Can we get back to Iberia issues ?

[Watersidewonker]

Please close this thread. Some other "Ancient" people are trying to re-run a dispute that was closed years ago.

Absolutely, close the thread - it's just going round in circles. Denial is a crucial stage of the psychological healing process and until Hand and friends are through this, there is no point in continuing with an intellectual level headed debate.

[Hand Solo]

It's exactly why the ruling was made. The courts were fed up with BA running to them to seek an injunction on minor technicalities that would have had no impact on the final result. They, nor any company, will be able to get the courts to help do their dirty work in future after this ruling.

Yes of course that's right. Those silly old judges didn't consider the material facts of the RMTs case and rule on that. No, they ruled on the fact that they were cross with BA and wanted to punish all companies regardless of due legal process. Of course they did.

Notwithstanding the outcomes were not just different but radically different and in our judgement.......etc etc

Just one ET. How many ET's did the faithful lose?

There's not one person that I know affiliated to CD who's not a BASSA member and supporter. Pleases don't believe flight deck spin. BASSA membership currently stands just under 10000.

Hang on, just a moment ago you were telling us you didn't know much about CD, now you think you know most of their members? There are plenty in CD who quit BASSA, they bleated about it on CF enough!! BASSA membership may be 'just under 10000' now, it wasn't just prior to the strike when BASSA took down the membership counter on their website before it embarassed them further!

My God you're coming to your senses - absolutely correct! Almost exactly because we now have contractual assurances going forward, which we didn't have months before - just loose wishy washy terminology.

Nope, pretty much the same deal word for word. The details are public domain, you can compare the offer BASSA didn't put to the vote with the one they did.

[quote]To fight injustice, which is more than your weak association would do for you. At least we have balls and stamina. Now it's onwards and upwards to the European courts to fight the Government over the injustice we've faced - can't wait!/quote]

To fight the injustice (and indignity!) of the CSD having to push a trolley! And you still lost in the first instance and had to reballot. And it was all pointless anyway as you ended up the deal BA had offered you earlier after you went back begging. Although you'll note BALPA (and I'm no fan of them) recently fought and won a case for holiday pay. I wonder if the European courts will believe you've faced an injustice? The UK courts certainly don't!

Wrong. Nearly 10000 members out of an eligible workforce of approx 11000

Ah ah! Circa 8000 members around strike time, corroborated by BASSAs own admission and BA's payroll department cancel the subs. It may be back up now, but that's not what counts. You didn't have it when it mattered (was it only about 5000 who went on strike anyway?).

I don't see them as 'rival'. Within the near future they'll be brought into EF/WW.
Midfleet lasted 10 years. Unite being 'completely separate'?

Yep, rival. They are cheaper than you and the new route growth goes to them. If you are lucky then maybe you'll be merged into MF! MF's growth rate is stratospheric, EF/WW are being offered severance. We both know there's no way on earth BA are going to throw away those savings, they don't need to! As to their union representation, to all practical purposes Unite are separate from BASSA. BASSA are merely a badly led, militant branch of the union. Unite needed them muzzled and they have been.MF will be represented by mainstream Unite. There'll be no angry trash talking from 'Admin' on MFs behalf and if BASSA start trying to play industrial again then Unite members in MF will cover the work, just like the Unite VCC did.

'd look to BALPA myself. Slowly year by year give up your T&C'S trying to delay the inevitable. So many pilots (and extremely decent ones) have seen the light and are joining Independent Pilots Association IPA.

I'm no fan of BALPA but they at least recognise reality. I'm not sure SEPLA have reached that stage yet. BASSA still haven't. Never met any pilot in the IPA, perhaps I'll have to take your word on that. After all, you've been so accurate on all your other claims.

And now from the introduction of the A380, BA want to take them out of the service.

Different aircraft, different rules. Maybe the A380 is big enough to require it. They'll still be doing the service on everything else. The indignity of Lala pushing a trolley!

Incorrect. As of last Julys elections there is an equal mix of CSDs/Pursers/Main crew, pre and post 97 contracts. Please visit the BASSA office for correct names and rank.

But they weren't at the time of the strike, or the decade before, were they? Cynical self-interest from the reps drove that strike. Its a bit like saying because Uganda is democratic now then no criticism can be attached to Idi Amin!!!

Feel free to carry on in your fantasy world WWW, ignoring all published, public domain accounts of where your union went badly wrong. But best you don't offer any more advice to SEPLA on how to 'win' their dispute your way.

[Magnetic Iron]

SEPLA-BALPA

From what I can see on this thread SEPLA Iberia pilots are more united than BA pilots. That will help, him in their current negotiations.

It looks as if the Spanish government will get involved ( ha! dunno what effect thatñll have ) if IAG scales down Iberia too much. Through the Spanish goverments nationalization of Bankia, they own a significant percentage ( ? % ) of Iberia and IAG.

[Count Niemantznarr]

No please do not close the thread, although the Mods have been very tolerant with a couple of people here who keep reintroducing the BA cabin crew dispute out of context. The BA cabin crew dispute is relevant firstly because like the Iberia flight crew, there is no sympathy at all from BA pilots. Their refined elitism is all too evident in posts written here. And another worrying development is that the BA flight crew community have sold their souls to side with Walsh. They are now in his pocket. I cannot imagine any circumstance where they would stand up to him. So for Iberia pilots, read the vitriol displayed here against BA cabin crew, and realise who your enemies are.

Iberia flight crew are under the same 'scrutiny' as BA cabin crew it seems. In the long term as Magnetic Iron has astutely pointed out, I expect Iberia pilots to fare much better from assaults on their T&C's, because they are far more united and unselfish. Would Iberia pilots go against their cabin crew for £13m worth of share options? I don't think so.