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Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

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Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

Old 20th Nov 2012, 10:38
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I can see why Kevin Judkins is council chairman. I thought his post was an excellent summary of the current situation. Although seeing all this with foreign eyes I am convinced that the issues facing IAG are the same for all of us in the industry. Those with management that embrace change will eventually benefit, the others will fall bleating, how unfair life is, by the wayside.
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Old 20th Nov 2012, 10:59
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Lederhosen, You have hit the nail squarely on the head: BA pilots are very lucky to have Kevin, and the rest of the BACC. Why is it that BA Pilots are among the only legacy group worldwide to still be playing the game at all, let alone winning it? Kevin mentions luck and the business environment. True these things are important but equally, the BACC, have grasped opportunities when they came along. They ran with the luck and they turned it into something worthwhile for BA pilots! For that I will always be thankful.

Someone mentioned looking to the past. One of the difficulties in a situation like the one IB finds itself in is that people tend to compare what they used to have with what they currently have. It makes them angry because they are worse off, sometimes far worse off, than the used to be. But in reality the choice is a false one: the actual choice is between what you have got and some other alternative (often redundancy, company bankruptcy, still worse decimation of T&Cs). It takes a great leap of imagination to see this, let alone to try to understand what the realistic range of choices actually is, given that you old terms and conditions were not sustainable and were going to change in some form.

In my view, the BACC is worth its weight in gold simply because it understands this.
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Old 20th Nov 2012, 11:15
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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The above post by Airrage demonstrates perfectly why I voted for him and the other executives on the BALPA BACC. I haven't even read PPRuNe for 12 months, for many of the reasons mentioned by Sick Squid above.

I am led to believe the Iberia unions have refused to engage with IAG on this. If that is the case, I think we will see a lot of blood spilt over this.
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Old 20th Nov 2012, 13:00
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I know what you mean, but are we still playing because of our skill, or simply because we started off a lot lower than everyone else? JAL and AA pilots were on packages BA drivers could only dream of pre-correction. My view is that we are where we are simply because we can run faster than the axeman, so it's no surprise that others don't see the world through the same self-satisfied (or perhaps self-deluding) perspective that many BA pilots see it. They don't see us as a great, business-savyy pilot creed imparting sound advice on survival in the dog-eat-dog airline business; we're the prison rent boy telling them it'll be easier if they don't struggle. It's hardly a surprise they don't want our advice. At least thanks to BFD we can now give Daddy a big kiss and then maybe he won't beat us so badly.
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Old 20th Nov 2012, 16:28
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Trust me Charlie Pop, BA conditions are much better than industry average as is the likelihood they will remain so in future, which is probably more important. What by the way is BFD?
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 10:19
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Kevin, top post! I just wish the majority of numpties who post on here would bother to read it!
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 11:43
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Lederhosen

What by the way is BFD?
There's a nice open source description here......

British Airways goes Beyond the Flight Deck to improve passenger experience | APEX Editor's Blog

Last edited by wiggy; 21st Nov 2012 at 11:50.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 14:18
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Most interesting, thanks Wiggy. Good luck to IAG with the rollout of the concept in Spain.

Last edited by lederhosen; 21st Nov 2012 at 14:18.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 16:04
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KJ has very broad support in BA except from a predictably, ever present, militant, online vocal few. Everybody in this industry is on some sort of race to the bottom with their T&C.... Because of this approach BA pilots are stiil in the queue for the bottom.. but they are at the back of the queue.

From what I observe in Spain IB pilots are doing 'Industrial Relations' the old fashioned way and the time for tactics like that is long-since past. It does not thrill me to see BA and it's pilots being blamed for the ills that IB is currently suffering... It reminds me very much of our CC strike where the pilots got the blame for everything the CC could not blame on anybody else.

.....They should have course looked in the mirror for somebody to blame.
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Old 21st Nov 2012, 16:42
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Racing to the bottom is about right.

Unless people love the job's in major airline's or holding companies, move on to new fields !

Bankers ???
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Old 23rd Nov 2012, 15:59
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IB finantial results according to IAG website

Here are the finantial results for the past years, according to IAG website, before the merger with BA. A link has been provided so you can check them. It seems to me that the only bad year was 2009.

Full results IB 2010: 89 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...ual_Report.pdf

Full results IB 2009: -273 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...es/PQ42009.pdf

Full results IB 2008: 32 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...entacionQ4.pdf

Full results IB 2007: 327.6 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...llyear2007.pdf

Full results IB 2006: 57.0 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...lQ42006ing.pdf

Full results IB 2005: 395.6 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...s/Year2005.pdf

Full results IB 2004: 218.4 M

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...s/Year2004.pdf

Here is also the IAG corporate website where you can find other presentations.
IAG - International Airlines Group - Annual Reports

These are facts. If you ask me about my opinion I think that IB management and employees have failed to modernise the company while they had the chance (meaning time and cash).

But on the other hand, there are several factors which contribute to IB current situation. Of course the country's economy has played a major role, but one has to wonder if transferring bulk routes to Iberia Express, slashing connections with major european and South American capitals, delaying orders for more efficient aircraft, has nothing to do with the company economic woes.

For me it's faily simple to play with company numbers to make it look worse than it is. I mean, airlines always play with numbers to make them look better than they are when they present their year results, so why not the other way around?

It's not about IB vs BA, but use your imagination. IB has not hired almost anybody for 10 years, so every pilot and cabin crew has gained seniority and thus they become more expensive. Companies usually deal with this by growing, as we all know this is after all a capacity bussiness, and retiring older employees. They simply cannot layoff people because they get expensive... Unless the law changed and permited companies just do that on the basis of operating losses. Well that happened last year, so in my opinion (humble as it is) the management got a carte blanche to do whatever they like. You can find lots of proposals from SEPLA to make cuts in the past few years, sone of the audited by big firms, but the management simply refused them. It seems that their only interest is to shrink IB.

There are clauses on the merger agreements that allow the biggest company to gain control on IAG by 2015. It may sound ridiculous for some of you that SEPLA it's denouncing a 'takeover' of IB by BA, but consider what IB has gained with the merger. They had the chance to improve the product, renew their fleet, grow in latin america and open new markets, but since the merger little investment has come to IB, and now the company is the bad boy.
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Old 24th Nov 2012, 13:03
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Some good points, some not so good

I'm no fan of BA management but they've been fighting the LCA's ever since the days of Laker - they know the enemy and have constantly monitored what they need to do to stay afloat/ahead

IB on the other hand thought things would just jog along nicely for ever - they continued to order a load of different types of aircraft, their crews 9as pointed out) got more and more senior

By the time they woke up the LCA's had them by the throat and the cash flow was no longer there to modernise
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Old 24th Nov 2012, 13:26
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Alonso, companies do play with the figures to some extent, but that is mostly reflected in the net profit or loss.
A more reliable factor is, of course, the operational results.

For instance, in 2010, despite the €86m profit that you wrote, actually, the operations itself was a loss of €26m.

There is a key figure: Revenue. Cost (procurements and salaries) have not changed much, whereas revenue is down. It was very significant for 2009.


Here is how Spanish GDP has evolved
Spain GDP Growth Rate
The correlation with IB's performance is clear. And the bad news is that due to Spain having little room for manoeuvre by being trapped in the Euro (therefore it cannot strive to be more competitive by adjusting its currency), the prospects are bleak for many years to come.

I think that IB Express, if it were allowed to expand without hindrance by Sepla, it would play a major part in changing IB's prospects, by offering an efficient and cost effective short haul feeding operation.

IB did already do some trimming of routes (just a correction, in fact, after the expansion they tried with the likes of FOR/REC/COR and routes from Barcelona proved a mistake - well, the crisis started to bite harder too)
I believe that if they had not done the trimming, their losses would be even larger today, simply because they would have spent a lot more money with that operation, without a match in income.

The losses are still huge, and so more trimming is required. And yet, I believe that IB can have great prospects if it could have a more flexible workforce who have a grasp of the concept of being in a competitive environment - and increasingly so- and who could change their attitude to be more competitive and realistic.

Of course a more efficient fleet can help, and Latin America still offers a lot of potential. I hope that Iberia can transform itself into a leaner carrier.
It's a big if, as it has a lot of baggage.

And if they don't, there is Vueling, soon to be wholly owned by IAG which can happily take over IB's job if it proves impossible to restructure and has to close down.
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Old 24th Nov 2012, 16:13
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with you Condorox, IB needs some trimmimg of routes and capacity, and improve several aspects of their operation (ie on-board service...)
I just wanted to point out some things that I thought were unfair claims against their staff, and some statements about their finantial performance.
Heathrow Harry, IB only operates A320 family and A340, so I don't understand what you mean by "load of different types of aircraft". As far as IB reacting late to LCC, I couldn't agree more.
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Old 24th Nov 2012, 17:09
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Iberia staff are the face of the company, I have dealt with them frequently since I moved to Spain 8 years ago. Unfortunately the experience has been/is regularly unpleasant, particularly in Barajas. As a very frequent traveller I have a choice and in the last 12 months and going forward I have chosen to take my business elsewhere.
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Old 24th Nov 2012, 17:33
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Alonso

Right now you are correct but a few years back they seemed to buy just about every plane that came on the market - clearly no real planning at all - the overhead in spares and engineers must have been massive
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 06:59
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Remarkable

IAG boss Willie Walsh voices fury over Spanish pilots' perks | This is Money


Top of the list is to end the custom – demanded by the Spanish pilots’ union – that all communications between pilots and Iberia should be by motorcycle dispatchrider. Iberia is insisting it be allowed to use email or surface mail.

Last edited by STN Ramp Rat; 25th Nov 2012 at 07:00.
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 08:14
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yeah - all fine & dandy and good for the headlines but it's the 20% increase in hours that will change the $$$ numbers

Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 25th Nov 2012 at 08:14.
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 14:34
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This is why they are known as 'Spanish Practices'.

I have a home in Spain and I am never surprised by any of these sort of crazy perks or outdated petty rules and regulations in every day life.


When you want to talk about your electricity bill you need to produce your passport or ID.


The banks only allow you to pay bills on a given day at a proscribed time for example between 11.00 and 12.00 on a Thursday.


The siesta still happens in a lot of places and shops kick you out at 14.00 even if you,are about to spend money.


Changing a car registration from British to Spanish is so complex you need to engage a lawyer or specialist company to do it.


When fewer people frequent a bar or restaraunt the Spanish owners will just put the prices up to compensate.


I love the place but you get really frustrated and I guess Willy feels the same.
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 15:08
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I had heard that IB pilots had some strange ways, but...................

- messenger to deliver mail,
- less than 700 hours a year,
- transport to and from the airport..

I do feel sorry that so many people are going to have their lives turned upside down, but looking at the above means that I have lost the last drops of sympathy for IB pilots. They have been so protected over the years, not just their over-inflated T&Cs, but the whole sycophantic hiring methods.

On this issue I am with WW. If he does not sort out IB pronto it will go to the wall! IB pilots need to look in the mirror, not the dodgy mirror you have been issued with bu SEPLA, but a real mirror that shows you a real picture!!
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