Easyjet Recruitment
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Yep, and then you selfishly blame the new guys for the demise of the T&C's when you've been sitting on your lazy selfish ass for 10 years on your old contract doing nothing for new joiners!
My T&C havent been eroded too much in my opinion. The new joiners have accepted lower T&C. Their problem. As I said no one forced them.
I am the only one who is responsible for my selfish arse and I intend to look after it.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 29th Jul 2012 at 10:00.
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Mr Mugabe,
I am the first to admit I left EZY for purely selfish reasons, better pay, staff travel, benefits and I now get to see a bit more of the world in my current job. Where I am now wouldn't suit everyone but it works for me.
Unfortunately there are a few too many people like you in the company who are all too happy to sit back and get shafted by the company, make no attempt to fight them to maintain T&C's and are all to quick to point the finger of blame at everyone but yourself.
I am very happy for you with your big bonus, 100k a year and lovely stable rosters?! (must have changed a lot since I left). With a smug attitude like that I'm sure you are an absolute treat to fly with, I bet all the FO's love to listen while you wax lyrical about how wonderful your life is. I look forward to you back here in a number of years time when all that is taken by the company. I wonder who you will be blaming then?
I am the first to admit I left EZY for purely selfish reasons, better pay, staff travel, benefits and I now get to see a bit more of the world in my current job. Where I am now wouldn't suit everyone but it works for me.
Unfortunately there are a few too many people like you in the company who are all too happy to sit back and get shafted by the company, make no attempt to fight them to maintain T&C's and are all to quick to point the finger of blame at everyone but yourself.
I am very happy for you with your big bonus, 100k a year and lovely stable rosters?! (must have changed a lot since I left). With a smug attitude like that I'm sure you are an absolute treat to fly with, I bet all the FO's love to listen while you wax lyrical about how wonderful your life is. I look forward to you back here in a number of years time when all that is taken by the company. I wonder who you will be blaming then?
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Cancel2LateLunches - I think it is a bit harsh to blame people like Robert G Mugabe for the situation at easyJet. It does not sound like you did too much yourself to help - you just looked after No 1 and left. You were under no moral obligation to stay, and I am sure everyone wishes you well, but you are certainly not in a position to berate others within the Company. Also, you simply have no idea what someone is like to fly with, and to insult them like that is quite wrong IMHO. Doug the Head and I have clashed on numerous occasions over easyJet Ts & Cs, and we do not agree on much. I do, however, agree that the flexicrew issue now has to take centre stage and be fought with every ounce of energy we have.
I am a long term pilot at easyJet and was fortunate to start in the 'good times', and thereby never faced the shameful iniquity of the flexicrew contract. I too have a stable roster, despite being Gatwick-based, although this week is proving to be an exception! The harsh reality is that the plethora of different contracts mean that you cannot say, "Life at easyJet is .....". It depends entirely on your own personal circumstances. You cannot blame someone for being happy with a good contract, but nor can you blame them for hating a bad one. We are still way better than Ryanair, but that is hardly the criteria to use. The curse of easyJet is the flexicrew deal - the truth is that we have failed corporately to fight it thus far.
The Company want 'flexibility' before they will give put a single permanent UK contract on the table. They have one big bargaining chip - the flexicrew contract, and they are going to use that to negotiate more 'flexible' terms among the permanent contract pilot community. In reality, that means some resurrection of 5/4 and other elements of Merlin. In a nutshell, they will trade 'flexibility' for permanent contracts when the BALPA/management negotiations recommence in September. Frankly, if I was a manager, I would be dangling that same carrot too. There are so may possible permutations of outcomes that it is almost not helpful to speculate on the results. We have to decide now, however, just how hard we will fight to get our flexicrew colleagues permanent contracts. I am willing to make some compromises on flexibility to achieve that, but I am also prepared to play hard ball and fight very hard indeed. 'EasyJet pilots for easyJet cockpits' is the number one issue for me and I will do my bit to achieve it.
I am a long term pilot at easyJet and was fortunate to start in the 'good times', and thereby never faced the shameful iniquity of the flexicrew contract. I too have a stable roster, despite being Gatwick-based, although this week is proving to be an exception! The harsh reality is that the plethora of different contracts mean that you cannot say, "Life at easyJet is .....". It depends entirely on your own personal circumstances. You cannot blame someone for being happy with a good contract, but nor can you blame them for hating a bad one. We are still way better than Ryanair, but that is hardly the criteria to use. The curse of easyJet is the flexicrew deal - the truth is that we have failed corporately to fight it thus far.
The Company want 'flexibility' before they will give put a single permanent UK contract on the table. They have one big bargaining chip - the flexicrew contract, and they are going to use that to negotiate more 'flexible' terms among the permanent contract pilot community. In reality, that means some resurrection of 5/4 and other elements of Merlin. In a nutshell, they will trade 'flexibility' for permanent contracts when the BALPA/management negotiations recommence in September. Frankly, if I was a manager, I would be dangling that same carrot too. There are so may possible permutations of outcomes that it is almost not helpful to speculate on the results. We have to decide now, however, just how hard we will fight to get our flexicrew colleagues permanent contracts. I am willing to make some compromises on flexibility to achieve that, but I am also prepared to play hard ball and fight very hard indeed. 'EasyJet pilots for easyJet cockpits' is the number one issue for me and I will do my bit to achieve it.
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Alexander de Meerkat, I don't really see why you find my comments harsh. It was harsh of Mugabe to lay the blame for the deteriating T&C's at the door of the cadets and pilots who have not yet been employed by the company. The truth is, EZY management are to blame for continuously attacking the T&C's and the EZY pilots (I include myself in this statement) for not doing enough to stop them.
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[QUOTE]the flexicrew issue now has to take centre stage and be fought with every ounce of energy we have./QUOTE]
How? I agree with your rhetoric but it all sounds very similar to the noises that were made during my time in easyjet - in truth nothing was done because there was no "energy" to fight the advent of the likes of flexi-crew from established pilots on permanent contracts that paid well. We made lots of angry noises and then accepted sub-par pay deals and watched as new recruits were offered increasingly appalling terms and conditions. UK Captains are not going to accept pay cuts and life style deterioration to allow flex-crew pilots into the cosier world of full-time contracts so the only thing that will stop the growth of flex-crew is new F/Os refusing a job with easyjet until joining T&Cs improve. I can't see that happening.
How? I agree with your rhetoric but it all sounds very similar to the noises that were made during my time in easyjet - in truth nothing was done because there was no "energy" to fight the advent of the likes of flexi-crew from established pilots on permanent contracts that paid well. We made lots of angry noises and then accepted sub-par pay deals and watched as new recruits were offered increasingly appalling terms and conditions. UK Captains are not going to accept pay cuts and life style deterioration to allow flex-crew pilots into the cosier world of full-time contracts so the only thing that will stop the growth of flex-crew is new F/Os refusing a job with easyjet until joining T&Cs improve. I can't see that happening.
How can you blame someone for doing all they can to get a job when they've spent between £50-£110K on getting their licence?
The 250hr pilot who sits there waiting for the ethically perfect contract to arrive with good T&Cs and fair pay is going to do just that, sit there and wait, and wait, and wait. Every other wannabe will push him out the way and take whats on offer. Its humans doing what comes naturally. We're not standing in a queue at the bank here, or letting a pregnant woman sit down on the tube - we're looking for our first jobs in a tough climate. One which plays into the hands of the likes of CTC/Ryanair/easyJet.
Like it or not, you can't blame low hour wannabe pilots for flexicrew.
The 250hr pilot who sits there waiting for the ethically perfect contract to arrive with good T&Cs and fair pay is going to do just that, sit there and wait, and wait, and wait. Every other wannabe will push him out the way and take whats on offer. Its humans doing what comes naturally. We're not standing in a queue at the bank here, or letting a pregnant woman sit down on the tube - we're looking for our first jobs in a tough climate. One which plays into the hands of the likes of CTC/Ryanair/easyJet.
Like it or not, you can't blame low hour wannabe pilots for flexicrew.
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So in that case, what lies are CTC telling to wanabees? If all that is being offered is temporary contracts with deminished hours in return for 80K to 90K worth of investment then why is there hoards of people still lining up to hand over their cash?
I'm guessing it another case of powerful marketing rhetoric, blinkered vision and the bank of mummy and daddy. The very same people who were queuing up to throw their money at CTC will be on here whinging about it in a few years time.
I'm guessing it another case of powerful marketing rhetoric, blinkered vision and the bank of mummy and daddy. The very same people who were queuing up to throw their money at CTC will be on here whinging about it in a few years time.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 30th Jul 2012 at 14:10.
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UK Captains are not going to accept pay cuts and life style deterioration to allow flex-crew pilots into the cosier world of full-time contracts so the only thing that will stop the growth of flex-crew is new F/Os refusing a job with easyjet until joining T&Cs improve. I can't see that happening.
And why should easyJet Captains?. I dont see BA,Thompson,Virgin Skippers reducing their T&C to help their new joiners.
How can you blame someone for doing all they can to get a job when they've spent between £50-£110K on getting their licence?......We're looking for our first jobs in a tough climate. One which plays into the hands of the likes of CTC/Ryanair/easyJet.......Like it or not, you can't blame low hour wannabe pilots for flexicrew
The very same people who were queuing up to throw their money at CTC will be on here whinging about it in a few years time.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 30th Jul 2012 at 23:28.
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Cancel2LateLunches and Dan 98 are spot on.
Have you ever seen any airlines such as BA, AF, LH or MON blaming new joiners for any downgrade in T&Cs or recruitment policy? NO
This is the job of experienced CPTs and FOs under permanent contract. They are the only one that can make that change happen. I understand the point of you that nobody force anyone to accept the flexi term, but waiting for a cadet or an experience A320 FO to refuse the job just won't happen! But the main problem has been mention already: ''selfish''
Anyway, there will be probably more flexi to come, and hopefully more permanent contract for France, Swiss and Italy (thanks to the European colleague)
EasyJet dismisses positive impact of Olympics
Have you ever seen any airlines such as BA, AF, LH or MON blaming new joiners for any downgrade in T&Cs or recruitment policy? NO
This is the job of experienced CPTs and FOs under permanent contract. They are the only one that can make that change happen. I understand the point of you that nobody force anyone to accept the flexi term, but waiting for a cadet or an experience A320 FO to refuse the job just won't happen! But the main problem has been mention already: ''selfish''
Anyway, there will be probably more flexi to come, and hopefully more permanent contract for France, Swiss and Italy (thanks to the European colleague)
EasyJet dismisses positive impact of Olympics
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Yes you can blame prospective cadets for spending the money prior to doing the research into the job climate. Next you will be telling me home owners should help those who over invested in a falling house market and are in negative equity. It is all about intelligent investment in your future not wild speculation on " The Dream "
" Dream driver " I rest my case.
P.S What happened with BA. I hope it went well.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 31st Jul 2012 at 00:18.
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How can the Europe bases be on so much better contracts than the UK guys? Surely UK skippers are in fact subsidising the flexi crew FO's. much as they would like to deny it.
For all their bluster it seems uk captains are on an average biz jet salary in the UK. Minus the tax advantages. Not really market leading. What am I missing?
For all their bluster it seems uk captains are on an average biz jet salary in the UK. Minus the tax advantages. Not really market leading. What am I missing?
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RGM
It isn't about Captains at Easy like you reducing your T&C for new joiners. You make reference to Thompson / Mon / Virgin those companies don't have the array of contracts that Easy has ie....Very good and absolute sh*te!
The point is that you enjoy some of the best T&C's which you enjoyed sharing with everyone, out of interest apart from joining Easy in the good days and signing a contract what have you ever done to ensure they continue for the next generation of aviators ? You are on £100k a year plus your bonus because that is simply what Easy paid in the day, nothing you have done personally.....we live in a different world today where those coming into the industry aren't so fortunate.
If those that are in the senior positions like you cared for the future of the profession you would fight to help maintain the T&C's and the future of the profession that has clearly paid you so well.
One day unless things change there will be qualified pilots who will do your job for £40k less and you will be expendable, no one wants that and that's the point for trying to improve things now rather than looking down on those not so fortunate to be joining the industry when you did, expecting cadets to change that is not going to happen.
It isn't about Captains at Easy like you reducing your T&C for new joiners. You make reference to Thompson / Mon / Virgin those companies don't have the array of contracts that Easy has ie....Very good and absolute sh*te!
The point is that you enjoy some of the best T&C's which you enjoyed sharing with everyone, out of interest apart from joining Easy in the good days and signing a contract what have you ever done to ensure they continue for the next generation of aviators ? You are on £100k a year plus your bonus because that is simply what Easy paid in the day, nothing you have done personally.....we live in a different world today where those coming into the industry aren't so fortunate.
If those that are in the senior positions like you cared for the future of the profession you would fight to help maintain the T&C's and the future of the profession that has clearly paid you so well.
One day unless things change there will be qualified pilots who will do your job for £40k less and you will be expendable, no one wants that and that's the point for trying to improve things now rather than looking down on those not so fortunate to be joining the industry when you did, expecting cadets to change that is not going to happen.
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Another view is that when I first set out in aviation, Atlantic Barons only flew twice a month, were paid the equivalent of £250,000 a year, and retired on full final salary pensions. I don't recall anyone ever asking them to take a pay cut or to take industrial action so that my T&C's wouldn't be worse than theirs.
I wish the posters who blame everything on those who have full-time contracts would take the time to explain exactly how we are supposed to save new entrants from themselves? If we take a pay-cut, the company makes more money. Take industrial action? What forklifting planet do you live on!!!!
Anyway, off for another refreshing duty
I wish the posters who blame everything on those who have full-time contracts would take the time to explain exactly how we are supposed to save new entrants from themselves? If we take a pay-cut, the company makes more money. Take industrial action? What forklifting planet do you live on!!!!
Anyway, off for another refreshing duty
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We live in a different world today where those coming into the industry aren't so fortunate. If those that are in the senior positions like you cared for the future of the profession you would fight to help maintain the T&C's and the future of the profession that has clearly paid you so well.
1. Cadets or Flexicrew accepting they are worth much less by accepting these deals. Foolish as they are.
2. An Ineffectual pilots union within the UK ( BALPA ).
3. A perception by the public and the accountants that we are overpaid system monitors.
Now the BALPA topic has been covered ad infinitum on other threads but my take on this is our crew council has and is being advised by BALPA HQ to " keep their powder dry and save it for a real rainy day ( how bad that will be ask BALPA ) ".
In addition we were told our Union Crew Council could not represent the interests of the cadets and contractors as they were not employed by easyJet . I agree this is morally corrupt but as you say we live in a different world today.
When members of the Union Crew Council then resign and join management you realise that these senior individuals ( who are privy to more information than most ) realise the game is up and the union is a toothless tiger.
An individual cannot be expected to raise his or her head above the parapet when the body that represents him or her is loath to deploy the big guns and sanction effectual action. Remember BALPA is involved in most companies who employ contractors and cadets so these poor ( in all ways ) people will be coming to a crewroom near you soon.That is if you are not working with them already
If airline management, BALPA, the general public , the CAA and the DFT dont seem to give a S@$t about it why should I?.
Sad but true.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 31st Jul 2012 at 11:15.
As long as people accept these contracts this situation will exist.
I don't blame the company they are there to make a profit.
I don't blame the CAA it has nothing to do with them.
I don't blame the existing pilots they have, mostly, been through their own hard times one way or another so they fight for their T&C.
I don't blame the union they cannot fight this battle as they don't represent the flexi-crew.
I don't blame the cadets for wanting a jet job straight from training but they must accept that this is where the problem started and this is the only place it can be stopped. If they are prepared to accept what is offered it will not change.
For most of us looking back the situation is not that different except that today people come into aviation expecting a descent, relatively easy, well paid job straight away. In the past we had to work though the ranks of instructing, air taxi, and/or the small regional airlines, with all that associated debt, to make it to the right hand seat of a jet and those good T&C.
So here we are in the 'have it all now generation'.
I don't blame the company they are there to make a profit.
I don't blame the CAA it has nothing to do with them.
I don't blame the existing pilots they have, mostly, been through their own hard times one way or another so they fight for their T&C.
I don't blame the union they cannot fight this battle as they don't represent the flexi-crew.
I don't blame the cadets for wanting a jet job straight from training but they must accept that this is where the problem started and this is the only place it can be stopped. If they are prepared to accept what is offered it will not change.
For most of us looking back the situation is not that different except that today people come into aviation expecting a descent, relatively easy, well paid job straight away. In the past we had to work though the ranks of instructing, air taxi, and/or the small regional airlines, with all that associated debt, to make it to the right hand seat of a jet and those good T&C.
So here we are in the 'have it all now generation'.
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Flexicrew is a form of 'disguised employment' - just like the Ryanair F/Os on Brookfield and Storm McGinley contracts.
It is therefore considered to be illegal under the tax rules set out by HMRC and in particular IR35.
Google it.
How the conversation should go when BALPA go into see Easyjet management:
"Recruit people on permanent contracts or HMRC/media get a phone call about this company's 'dirty' tax avoiding/evading ways... Tax avoidance. A very hot topic in the media at the minute..."
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
It is therefore considered to be illegal under the tax rules set out by HMRC and in particular IR35.
Google it.
How the conversation should go when BALPA go into see Easyjet management:
"Recruit people on permanent contracts or HMRC/media get a phone call about this company's 'dirty' tax avoiding/evading ways... Tax avoidance. A very hot topic in the media at the minute..."
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by Poose; 31st Jul 2012 at 12:10.
It is always easy to say, easyJet plane easyJet pilot and it is something I would like to see, but BA has been before us with the creation of open skies and unfortunately this didn't work out for the pilots when they protested about this.
If anything like this would be presented to a judge, the company might argue. No easyJet pilot is disadvantaged by the employment of flexicrew and we have new recruits lining up to take up this contract, so where is the issue.........?
You cannot blame the easyJet pilots or BALPA that this is happening or that they haven't been proactive enough to stop this form of employment.
There are no grounds for protest. The solution would be to get PARC and CTC to recognise BALPA and to get the cadets to unite, that way I think better T's and C's could be organised.
If anything like this would be presented to a judge, the company might argue. No easyJet pilot is disadvantaged by the employment of flexicrew and we have new recruits lining up to take up this contract, so where is the issue.........?
You cannot blame the easyJet pilots or BALPA that this is happening or that they haven't been proactive enough to stop this form of employment.
There are no grounds for protest. The solution would be to get PARC and CTC to recognise BALPA and to get the cadets to unite, that way I think better T's and C's could be organised.
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Interesting thread..
I work for the other outfit (in white/blue/yellow) and recently there have been lots of comparison with EZY contracts. The sample EZY contracts I was shown, both FO and CPT, were permanent Italian contract and they looked beautiful (to my standards at least..) with good net pay, benefits, security. But as I suspected it's only half the story of what's actually out there? Anyone care to elaborate a little on what different EZY contracts are out there and the span of take home pay an average month on the different ones? I am just interested to understand the big picture.
I work for the other outfit (in white/blue/yellow) and recently there have been lots of comparison with EZY contracts. The sample EZY contracts I was shown, both FO and CPT, were permanent Italian contract and they looked beautiful (to my standards at least..) with good net pay, benefits, security. But as I suspected it's only half the story of what's actually out there? Anyone care to elaborate a little on what different EZY contracts are out there and the span of take home pay an average month on the different ones? I am just interested to understand the big picture.
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I saw these EZY Italian contracts aswell. Night and day compared to FR.
Would be interested to hear about how many different contracts EZY have?
Would be interested to hear about how many different contracts EZY have?
Last edited by go around flaps15; 31st Jul 2012 at 13:40.
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Money wise the easyjet Italian contract is by far the best you can get here south of the Alps, even compared to the Alitalia one and all the other outfits...
A pity it doesn't seem to be easy to get!
A pity it doesn't seem to be easy to get!