BA Pilots Lose Out on Commands

[4468]

bluepilot:

BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330)

Are you sure???

[Juan Tugoh]

Are you really suggesting that BASSA have done well for their members over the last few years Count? If you insist on that sort of la la land logic no-one will listen to any of your arguments an anything as you show a complete disregard for the facts.

BASSA had the opportunity to prevent the creation on MF - but they didn't due to the leadership's (sorry if this strikes a little close to home) sheer bloody mindedness and stupidity.

What rankles the Legacy Fleets most about the little nigels and nigellas I wonder? Perhaps it is proof that the insane, mindless and cultural hatred that CC have at BA has not been inculcated into MF and that MF crew do not hate pilots for no reason. Whatever the reason - when men and women meet, things like this happen, office romances are hardly new, it is only human nature and behaviour.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up

This is absolute BS, they are worried sick about the future, they have no promotion prospects, MF is growing and the routes are drifting towards them. BASSA are feeding this fear with their missives about the Redeployment Agreement. Why do BASSA need their minions to be in fear? is it because despite the insanity of the last few years they are still bristling for a fight, desperate to try to regain lost ground. Fear creates militancy and extreme views - this is plain to see in the politics of Europe at the moment (and the politics of the 20's and 30's in Europe). BASSA hope to exploit this as they still have not realised that they lost the last dispute and it was an act of kindness that BA did not impose a settlement to end it all. Perhaps that was an error.

[Wirbelsturm]

Count, once again a lesson in 'ludicrous cherry picking'. Thank you.

A little thread creep if I may, I will come back at the bottom.

taking two days leave off of you and shafting future average holiday pay supplements.

Shafting? Not really it was an agreed move by the majority Pilot group. We were balloted for our views and response then action was taken. You do remember balloting don't you? Where you ask the member majority and then act on the results???? Of course not, BASSA made all the decisions in the previous dispute didn't they.

it was actually a brilliant result

???????????????

In what world was it a 'brilliant result'? The entire dispute was about reducing the crewing levels by one and employing the CSD in the premium cabins. Guess what! We are still operating one down with the CSD ona trolley. All the other niff-naff around was BASSA toys out of the cot and then being given back when their temper tantrums had calmed down. The fact that BASSA blindly discounted the inception of MF whilst concentrating on getting their 'bruvvas' re-instated was the biggest crime of all for their 'Legacy' fleet members.

The cost savings to BA with the growth of MF are growing exponentially year on year. Thanks to BASSA.

Remember the "fight for survival" was caused by an artificially created record loss following a record profit the year before.

You refused to look at the forecasts, the figures and the analysis of an independant, third party economic powerhouse and still you believe your own rhetoric?

Since the treacherous actions of BA pilots towards their cabin crew colleagues

Also the treacherous actions of the ground staff, loaders, checkin staff, baggage handlers, engineers, back office staff, Waterside staff, call centre staff, IT staff, HR staff etc. etc. etc. But, as we all do the same job in our little metal tube , pilots are, as always, the only ones who 'tipped the balance'.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up

This is quite sad to read, the last clutches of the drowning man at any straw available. Legacy fleet are fuming at every new route opportunity that passes over to MF. The abject inability of BASSA to recognise the frustration within it's members is startling to say the least. BASSA delivered cost savings to BA well above and beyond that required by not negotiating MF.

At least the Legacy crew have not emulated the mistakes of the clever pilots, by going over to an hourly rate.

By the law of diminishing returns they don't need to. Enjoy it while you can, all the lucrative LH routes and the future fleet acquisitions are headed to MF anyway.

So chaps you need to worry about your own patch

We are thank you.

Back to the thread:

BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330),

Unfortunately not for long. Those hulls are due for lease expiration in October. What they are bringing are 7 Club bed fitted MH A321's which can be used on routes such as Cairo and Tel Aviv, which are currently served by the 777. This will free up some 777 rotations to be used on other routes where slot/route duplication with BMI exists. Expansion of the LH route means expansion of crewing opportunities.

Bidline for the BMI pilots is something they will have to use to see the benefits for themselves. The system of random trip scraping to allow relative BMI seniority bidding at the bottom of the MSL is emenantly fair IMHO. The biggest factor this brings to the table is lifestyle. If a BMI pilot wishes to move outside of the Airbus onto the other fleets then they will take their place at the bottom of the bidding list. The choice become theirs.

The 15 LH commands over 3 years will be offset by increased capacity on the LH route structure. If giving away 15 LH commands is required to generate LH expansion requiring 45 new commands then they bias is in favour of the BA pilots anyway. The agreement effectively guarantees BMI pilots 1 command in 100. There will be, at the start, a few who gain advantage over some of the junior FO's but it will only be in the short term as the BMI pilots will not be type frozen but the BA DEP's will.

On complettion of freeze the BA DEP can move across to their fleet of choice knowing that they will be a higher bid seniority.

Looking at snapshots is, generally, misinformative. Always look at the bigger picture to gain a better oversight.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

GS-Alpha, thanks for your reply.

I salute the patience of Wirbelsturm and others in their replys to count niemantzar but we are dealing with a deluded BASSA militant who lost their grip on reality a long time ago, I can't help but feel your attempts at logic and arguments based on fact will be wasted on him!

it was actually a brilliant result

A career in politics awaits.....

[Wirbelsturm]

BMRR,

It's fun. Sadly 'Count', as he likes to call himself, probably wants to enjoy his enforced free time thinking he, along with the others on the Council, led his 'Bruvva's and Sista's' to an emphatic victory, whilst the world sees the action as leaving BASSA a powerless shell and all the members sold down the river. Mistakes that leave him somewhat powerless to give advice in any situation.

Aren't viewpoint and perspective amazing things!

[Count Niemantznarr]

Regarding BA's 'record loss', the BBC's Business Editor had this to say about it:

"So it's difficult to avoid the impression that at least part of BA's agony, its descent in just 12 months from record profits to record losses, was of its own making"

BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: Loaded down

BA had a record profit of over £900m in 2007 - 08 and in June that year oil peaked at U$154 a barrel. Walsh and co did not keep any money over for a rainy day, but chose to show the full profit in order to trigger the 10% Operating Profit bonuses.

You guys fell for it and were marshalled into volunteering to serve drinks by one rep in particular, whose libel action by the way, failed.

I have to correct a misnomer here. BASSA offered to reduce the crew complement by one, with the CSD taking the role of Premium Purser. It would not have been possible to merge new contract staff as efficiently with Legacy. For instance on some destinations Legacy get a double night, where MF only get one. Also BA wanted to start a new culture in BA unpolluted by Legacy crew. The fact they wear hats is an indication of this aspiration.

Walsh was out to smash not just BASSA, but all unions in BA. That is why the BA/BASSA dispute was historic and Professor Keith Ewing wrote a book about it. I doubt he would waste anytime writing about BALPA's failed attempt to halt OpenSkies.

Legacy Fleet has actually grown with the assimilation of BMI cabin crew, very few of whom took the £10,000 bribe to go to and join Mixed Fleet. Those BMI crew will be able to transfer into WW in the near future. I think that is called 'growth'.

Unlike BA's pilots who seem to enjoy giving their cash and conditions away, Legacy Crew have a future minimum pay guarantee.

MF are being swopped around various routes bascially just to confuse the customers. They have LAX for the moment, but like SAN and PHX, Legacy will fly there again. It is unlikely however MF will get ATL back for well documented reasons. BA may have "the CSD's in the cabins", but when the AVOD breaks down as it does virtually every sector, it doesn't get fixed as quickly as before.

Regarding VCC's, many in Waterside did not have a choice. BA's pilots did, and as GS Alpha states, none of you considered the consequences of your actions when the dispute was over. By the way, it wasn't just a few F/O's who volunteered, it was hundreds. Why? Many of you actually made a load of money out of operating as cabin crew. £400 a sector wasn't it?

Heathrow terminal staff who volunteered have threatened to strike, if maxed out hours MF crew are redeployed to check in or other ground duties, where they may lose overtime opportunities. Gatwick ground staff VCC's are seeing their jobs (170 customer service and 400 ramp workers) jobs outsourced. Obviously if they had the spare time to be VCC's, they were overstaffed.

Back on topic, giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

[Shaka Zulu]

What complete and utter bull. That whole post is so full of holes that it doesn't even deserve a reply.
No matter what facts are put to you, you will always pick and choose bits that make it sound like you know what you are on about. Unfortunately you do not have a clue....


Oil price peaking? - Fuel hedged 60% that year (so nonsense)

No Union has been smashed in BA. Although yours has been rendered obsolete.
LAX you will not get back (have a look at the savings)

Legacy has grown due TUPE options for BMI but you will certainly not get ANY growth organically. All recruitment will be in MF. So no promotion opportunities till kingdom come for many very able crew on Legacy.
Well done BASSA.....

Payment to work - £400? Well you are losing a normal flying trip so offsets the money that you are losing by not flying as a pilot (just). Although there are many stories about guys being stood down at report for duty as crew as FAR more Crew turned up during the strike.
In fact I did quite a few flights with a full compliment of Legacy crew during the whole strike period.

No the 15 commands (can't be arsed going through the ACTUAL construction of this) doesn't disadvantage guys seeking promotion. Because on balance there shall be more commands available for everyone. It's called a compromise agreement with everyone benefitting (just not 100% benefit).
Altruistic? Maybe. One Union? Definitely....

[Bengerman]

Back on topic, giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

Well, Count, one would not expect you to understand it. You are unlikely to have the capacity to do so. Your deluded handling of previous industrial issues leaves you in a very poor position on anything to do with them in the 21st century.

On the other hand, the ballot result will probably demonstrate how many BA F/O's feel about it, probably far more accurately than your ignorant musings. They will be aware that the deal brings with it more than 5 command opportunities a year and is, therefore, a win/win.

Remind us how long 5 minutes is.

[Wirbelsturm]

BA had a record profit of over £900m in 2007 - 08 and in June that year oil peaked at U$154 a barrel.

Whilst the fuel hedging department was using pre-hedged fuel at approx $70USD a barrel for fiscal year 2007-8. The effects of the 154USD per barrel were to be felt the following year as hedging costs were pushed sky high by speculators. Perhaps if you had bothered to take part in the financial analysis you would have understood that.

BASSA offered to reduce the crew complement by one, with the CSD taking the role of Premium Purser

No you didn't. You argued, squirmed and cajoled to the point where two Union reps had a fist fight in the car park. You failed to meet any negotiating deadline, thinking big bad BASSA was too above making deadlines (sound familiar Count?) and then threw your toys out of the cot when BA imposed the change.

Legacy Fleet has actually grown with the assimilation of BMI cabin crew

Most likely due to the age demographic and an unwillingness to work too long. They can enjoy the dwindling routes and make more money. Who wouldn't vote for that?

Legacy Crew have a future minimum pay guarantee.

But with a hard won BASSA dwindling future. Not real figures but £20000 per annum for 10 years is better than £30000 per annum for 3!

but when the AVOD breaks down as it does virtually every sector, it doesn't get fixed as quickly as before.

AVOD hasn't broken down for many many many trips on the 777 that I've flown. Also, during the court cases for the 'excessive work' caused by the removal of 1 crew member AVOD was continually used as an excuse for the CSD not to take part in the service. That excuse went out of the window when BA produced the computer records of just how little the AVOD actually fails.

Can't be bothered with the rest as there is too much thread creep already.

giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

There have been a couple of people who have questioned 767 course cancellation but these have been cancelled prior to any decision being made as a normal Cassandra run. Certainly nothing unusual there. Also there have been questions about transfers from those in the BA system who are frozen who feel they would be disadvantaged. However it has been pointed out that if unfrozen pilots from BMI moved across before them when they are unfrozen they will join ahead in terms of seniority and therefore route choice.

Initial type freeze has always been carried by BA. If ZFT qualified DEP's arrive on the 744 or 777 then are the guys on the Airbus 'disadvantaged' by type freeze? Not really. We are just seeing quite a few ZFT qualified DEP's joining in a bunch.

Overall, no one gets disadvantaged.

Any more rubbish to spout Count?

[Wirbelsturm]

Just to round out 'Count's' own link:


From Robert Pestons blog:

What is clear is that the quantum of BA's debt and the value of its net assets are moving in opposite directions at a worryingly fast rate.
Net borrowings rose by more than £1bn last year, to £2.4bn, dwarfing shareholders' equity of £1.6bn (which fell by an alarming 46%).

and:

engineering and "other" aircraft costs increased by £59m or 13.1%; landing fees were 14.2% or £75m higher. Even staff costs rose a bit.

and:

Also it's cutting costs: staff are being offered the option of temporary or permanent part-time working and unpaid leave; the company is negotiating "productivity changes" with trade unions

We all know where the CC 'productivity changes' came from don't we?

So, can we leave that version of the past in the past and continue discussing the thread now?

[Ancient Observer]

Er, shouldn't the "Count" be counting those branch funds for which there is less than zero clarity, and no transparency whatsoever. A bit of accounting is required, rather than trying to wind up the very few BA pilots that read these pages.

When they come to give awards for Financial probity, I suggest that balpa will come above bassa.

And awards for success? MF was a brilliant creation by bassa. Saved BA a fortune!!

[OBK!]

massiveheed,

I'm not calling him anything, it's self pro claimed! Perhaps a wannabe with a chip on his/her shoulder?

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6470797

[Trossie]

"Count",

Is you real name 'Arthur Strong'? Your gibberings are about as coherent!! (Look him up!)

'Legacy' fleet/airline? You couldn't get more 'dinosaur' than that!! You are the dodos of the airline industry!! You are so horribly behind-the-times. Just get up-to-date with the real world and catch up with what's really going on (and when I say that I suspect that I am quite a bit older than you!!).

And do us all a favour and keep that nasty selfishness of yours to yourself. There are a lot of Pilots out here who are concerned about the futures of others who are falling on hard time and don't have that nasty, selfish, old-fashioned attitude that you do.

And if you really are a pilot (which the Icelandic link appears to show that you are), just remember that you are only a high-tech bus (or is it 'coach')-driver. Thinking of that, are you also going to be going on strike for that 'Olympics' supplement that the Tube-drivers are apparently getting?

You give Nigels a bad name! (Nigels, I hope that you are giving that 'duffing up' behind the scenes for the crap name he is giving all of you!)

[Bengerman]

Trossie, the only place the count is a pilot is in his own tiny mind.

[Tay Cough]

giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

There have been a couple of people who have questioned 767 course cancellation but these have been cancelled prior to any decision being made as a normal Cassandra run. Certainly nothing unusual there.

The 767 is a "dying" fleet and will most likely be gone in four years or so. At some point in the near future, this will be officially declared at which point those pilots who are on it will be forced to stay on it until it retires, with the route structure moving from longhaul to shorthaul. As the longhaul hulls are reduced and shorthaul hulls retained, the basic pay will reduce steadily towards shorthaul pay.

Horses for courses, I suppose but I'm not sure I'd want to move to that fleet myself.

[Atropos1]

For goodness sake guys don't stop this clown posting! It might cause me a bit of a hernia from laughing though! What are we going to do for entertainment when these dinosaurs finally shuffle off?

[Wirbelsturm]

Whatever,

It's a yes vote from both sides with over 80% in favour.

Welcome.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yes, a good result. I hope the ex-BMI guys will now enjoy life in BA. And best wishes for a good outcome for all the pilots and crew at Baby.

[Hot Wings]

Without the spin, only 47% of BA BALPA members voted yes, the rest voted no or took the coward's option by abstaining.

BA management will be delighted to know that we can still be shafted a bit more before we finally stand up for ourselves.

[Wirbelsturm]

Without the spin, only 47% of BA BALPA members voted yes, the rest voted no or took the coward's option by abstaining.

I agree, however the 'apathy' abstain vote is always a vote for the winning side, whatever that may be.

Personally I think it's a good decision for the long term.

All IMHO of course.