BA Pilots Lose Out on Commands

[Super Stall]

The Count's original post didn't create the furore he was expecting (because the people involved understand the issues at a level he never will) so he's back here trying again.

What a sad, desperate, crest fallen person you are Count.

[reebokstadium]

If the proposal was as bad as the count seems to infer and BA pilots have been "stitched up" then they will simply vote the proposal down. The representation they have received from their professional organisation has ensured they have that option.

Since the count was involved in another organisation in the recent past could he remind us of the voter turnout/result percentages in his organisation's vote on the acceptance or otherwise of Mixed Fleet at LHR?

Oh hang on.....

[Count Niemantznarr]

It is very unlikely that there will be any convergence in the aims of IAG management and the aspirations of BA Flight Crew in the future. IAG are determined to start a low cost short haul operation that will harmonise with Iberia Express. Any hopes by BALPA members that a line has been drawn under the BMI integration are very much mistaken.

Unfortunately hundreds of them were distracted when they volunteered to serve drinks, something which their new 'colleagues' at BMI found abhorrent. Now as some here scoffed not long ago at the creation of the new low cost Mixed Fleet, the threat from integration of BMI is not as serious for the Legacy cabin crew as for the pilot community. Even a £10,000 bribe couldn't convince many BMI cabin crew to join Mixed Fleet.

BMI Baby employees have been treated very shabbily, and there is some similarity with the plight of Dan Air flight crew when BA took over that operation.

Dan-Air pilots to fight BA over payouts - Business - News - The Independent

[GS-Alpha]

Even a £10,000 bribe couldn't convince many BMI cabin crew to join Mixed Fleet.

Yeah I too think it is a shame that BASSA were so inflexible that the company were forced into starting up MF.

[Wirbelsturm]

Ah, Count, are you still looking for justification to drink that 'Champagne on ice'?

Unlike a certain group, who were so rampant on regaining lost Staff travel and achieving 'justice' for members sacked for legitimate reasons they completely lost the plot on the formation of a non cohesive sub group doing the same job on a completely different contract with specific allocated, non group mixed routes?

Whereas here we have a group joining the MSL with a random route selection given to enable them to bid fairly using their relative BMI seniority within the MSL structure, guaranteed commands in line with previous command aspirations and access to an enviable LH structure.

ALL new joiners, FPP, DEP and BMI are joining on PP35. That has been an accepted part of the evolving retirement age increase. No change to pensionable pay structure or total pay at the top pay structure. It will, however, take a little longer to get there to prevent the current 20 years at PP24 for the lucky few.

IAG could have told BA that they were setting up BA Express. They could have cancelled the BMI AOC and instigated a new one with 'Click Air/Vueling' Terms and Conditions. That would have been a shocker for the BMI crew, pilots and CC alike. They didn't. The LCC model is difficult, if not impossible, to run from LHR. In the future the actions taken will protect the majority of slots and aircraft and make it more difficult for IAG to instigate a startup. Not only that SH productivity is increasing and is likely to hit the targets disctated by IAG for 2015. If IAG wants to be so divergent why did it even contemplate givin 'BMI/BA Express' to BA?

BMI baby has been discussed before, there was no 'Golden Ticket' for Zoom, Excel etc. etc. etc. BMI Baby was not purchased, it was attached as a liability. Two different things when it comes to TUPE and employment protection. Look up your law,Count, something you seem to be quite lazy about.

Unfortunately hundreds of them were distracted when they volunteered to serve drinks

Same old, same old. Hundreds? Not really, certainly far, far less than the members from Unite that volunteered to protect their employer from a suicidal bunch of Union leaders who couldn't see the wood from the trees.

IAG are determined to start a low cost short haul operation that will harmonise with Iberia Express. Any hopes by BALPA members that a line has been drawn under the BMI integration are very much mistaken.

We are all amazed at your ability to see into the future and pick out your personal, zealous 'champagne shulucking' pilots doom, future'. IAG doesn't need an operation to 'harmonize' with Iberia Express. Perhaps if you took a look at the Arbitration report from Spain and saw the T's & C's that Iberia enjoy you might understand that the levelling for the 'harmonisation' would see an increase of relative conditions at LHR. Nice try, look for another hook.

Legacy fleet are losing routes hand of fist with stagnating movement with respect to Purser and CSD thanks to the actions of a certain Union. Their future has been thrown onto the rubbish heap thanks to the blind ability of their representatives to see what the inception of a new unrepresented entity within their ranks would do. You crowed it a 'victory' and how hollow it turned out to be. The reports are that they majority within both BA and BMI are content with the proposed merger structure. There is always an unconvinced minority who, on both sides, think they deserve more, that's just life. The BMI CC are represented by their own version of BASSA, Lord help them, and, as such, their future is up to them.

[Count Niemantznarr]

Well the credibility of BALPA will be dealt a blow when many members resign over the BMI integration, after having received their Average Holiday Pay settlement.

BALPA said that BA pilots would not be "disadvantaged" by the BMI takeover. The truth is that the 15 commands are going to BMI F/O's on the 767 fleet, five commands a year.

Also BMI had a disproportionate number of Training Captains and had pushed through a lot of commands when they got whiff of a BA takeover.

No wonder so many BA F/O's are incensed by BALPA's duplicity.

[skip.rat]

-For clarification..........

BALPA said that BA pilots would not be "disadvantaged" by the BMI takeover. The truth is that the 15 commands are going to BMI F/O's on the 767 fleet, five commands a year.

Pay attention Count; the above statement is . The commands will be going to the most senior bmi CAPTS should they bid for it.

[Hand Solo]

Except of course that the long haul commands will be going to bmi captains, not FOs, and may, or may not, be on the 767. And bmi haven't promoted a significant number of FOs to command in years. But apart from that you're nearly right Count!

[Dried ears]

As a turbo prop pilot on £27,000 a year, and with my career in Europe stifled due to a combination of the economic situation and (moreso) the fetish of employing paying rather than paid employees, I sympathise with those who see promotion prospects moving further into the future. I remain starkly jealous however, of what I understand to be your present larger salary and better terms and conditions.

[bex88]

It would be nice if certain people did not stick their nose in to cause trouble when they really have no idea. There are two sides to every story Count and at best you have little information of one side. BA and bmi pilots will work together in a productive and professional manner no matter how you try to drive the wedge between us. Nothings ever perfect on either side but a reasonable proposition has been reached. What has WW got planned for tomorrow? Who knows, I don't even think he does

[Wirbelsturm]

Count only rolls in what he believes are 'point grenades' with no basis in either fact or theory.

15 Commands to LH on the most Junior fleet over the next three years to cover the loss of the BMI A330's and the fact that BMI bring 7 WW club equipped A321's with them which could cover current 'LH' shorter routes. Who said anything about fleet specifics? It just so happens that the 767 is the 'junior' fleet at the moment.

Why do you think people will resign over this Count? 15 LH Commands? Who really cares? The time frame from RHS Airbus to LHS LH will reduce thanks to the expansion of the LH fleet which was slot and hull starved at LHR. Now we have a few more hulls being free'd up and some more slots which will lead, as stated by the CEO, to expansion.

After that the agreed ratio of BA/BMI command positions is 100/1. Hardly onerous.

Also BMI had a disproportionate number of Training Captains and had pushed through a lot of commands when they got whiff of a BA takeover.

No point in asking for proof is there? You don't have any as this didn't happen. BMI had a route structure that allowed Captains to occupy both the LHS and the RHS hence, in comparison to BA they were Captain 'top heavy'. It won't make any difference as, within the initial merger, the BMI crews will bid within their own trip line according to their relative MSL seniority. Overall effect? No change.

Please, Count, try a few more, it's obviously a slow day at Uni.

[GS-Alpha]

Whilst the count is not 100% correct in what he says, I do believe there will be a number of resignations once the holiday pay entitlement is in the bank. I made my decision during the work coverage agreement changes. There are several general strategies which I have tended to disagree with for years now, this current agreement is simply the latest one. The majority seem happy with the direction the union is taking, so I'll never be able to change the way things are done. However, I don't see why I should pay for a service I disagree with.

I joined the union mainly as professional insurance. That was the premise upon which it was 'sold' to me. However, that insurance failed to protect a good friend of mine a few years back. Again, there is no point in paying for insurance that isn't really there when you need it.

I do however believe in paying for benefits, so I'll continue to pay the union until the holiday pay case is concluded.

[Wirbelsturm]

Ironically GS-Alpha, I'm in total agreement with you. For exactly the point you make over the treatment of one of our LH colleagues.

If you screw up, you will not be represented, if you don't screw up, you don't need representation.

Odd eh?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I do however believe in paying for benefits, so I'll continue to pay the union until the holiday pay case is concluded.

I take your point but what about the benefits BALPA will negotiate on our behalf in the future? Are you happy for the rest of the membership who keep on stumping up every month to pay for those on your behalf? Or is it a case of joining when there is jam on the table - genuine question by the way, these conversations are easier to conduct on such a forum, as on the flight deck/at the bar they are often avoided on CRM grounds!

At the risk of turning this into a hamster wheel type debate, my previous airline was littered with pilots who looked at what balpa was doing for them as individuals rather than what it was doing for us as a collective. They seemed indifferent to a union-less scenario where our management would impose changes rather than negotiate, and as a result union representation was far too weak and direction-less to make any real difference. BA remains the benchmark for pilot T&Cs in the UK because of the levels of membership within the ranks, not in spite of it, yet I hear the same arguments for membership resignation every time an important decision is made that individuals don't agree with. I understand that paying for union subscription when you are at odds with the direction being taken by its reps/membership is galling, but do those who sit outside the union really think we would be better off without collective representation? Have BA BALPA really got it that wrong?

[Trossie]

From the above the following seems apparent following the IAG purchase of BMI:

Now let's look at that more closely.

Losing out on a Command in BA now is only a temporary measure. There will be Commands available in the future. As BA is a very large employer, those Commands will become available a lot quicker than they would elsewhere in the industry, so this will only be a slight delay in career progression for those senior BA F/Os.

Losing a job at 'Baby' is permanent. Those Pilots will be out of work with no Command career prospects, even for those who were already Captains. With the present state of the industry they have very, very uncertain futures facing them. (The agreement that has put BMI 'mainline' Pilots in a position that is 'giving' them those BA Commands has ensured that they don't face the same bleak future that the 'Baby' Pilots do.) If they get employment in airlines that have rigid 'seniority list' arrangements, their most experienced Captains will most likely have to wait it out as F/Os until much less experienced Pilots already in the airline have had their opportunities to take up Commands. (Imagine that in other industries: "Yes, I know that you were one of the top nuclear design engineers in that company that went bust, but here you'll have to take your turn behind those newly employed graduates"...!!)

For "Count" to make a big fuss about the temporary loss of a Command opportunity in one of the most secure employers in the industry shows a level of mean selfishness that gives 'Nigels' a bad name in the rest of the industry. I hope that his colleagues are giving him and his likes a figurative 'doing over behind the bike shed' for helping to give them a collective bad name.

[massiveheed]

Oh don't call the Count a pilot. That would really offend him!!

[GS-Alpha]

Are you happy for the rest of the membership who keep on stumping up every month to pay for those on your behalf?

This thread is not really about union membership, nor is it about BMI Baby pilots. However since you ask, I am really unhappy about the representation of one of my mates when he really needed the correct advice and representation from BALPA. It is the company who sacked him when he was innocent, but it was the union who gave him daft advice. Coupling this with a BALPA direction which I believe is actually ruining my terms and conditions, then no I am not happy for the rest of the membership to be paying on my behalf. The whole point is that I do not like the fundamental direction of the union, and overall, I do not want to be represented by it - paid for by myself or anybody else. I have remained in the union about 8 years longer than I should have done. I stayed because of the arguments that you are selfish to take what the union negotiate when others are paying for it. But enough is enough.

Since the Count brought this up, let's just pop in a word about the cabin crew dispute. I disagreed with a huge amount that the cabin crew were doing, but our union was wrong in the way it handled the matter of volunteer cabin crew. It should have explained that like me, it disagreed with what the cabin crew were doing, but that whilst it could not stop pilots from volunteering in the cabin, it did not think that we should be doing so. I came to my decision by asking myself whether I would be happy if someone came in and did my job for me whilst I was trying to send the company a message. As I say, I disagreed with the cabin crews' actions, but it was obvious the company was going to win - they didn't need our help. in the end, a minority of pilots volunteered, but pretty much all 'legacy' cabin crew assume that every pilot they meet was a volunteer. That in itself was one huge colossal mistake made by our union - again, bad advice! That one thing has done more to ruin my time at work, than pretty much everything the company have suggested doing over the last decade.

[Sgt Wilson]

It would appear that 15 co pilots lose out on commands in the near future, but amalgamating BMI into BA is bringing opportunities for all. The BMI chaps are voting on whether they should voluntarily give up some of the commands that they are entitled to under TUPE in order to share in a bit of the growth and benefit from being part of the BA MSL.

Personally, being on the MSL is more important than a lot of other things IMHO. Bidline also works better the more people are on it as it affords more choice. Some people seem to be getting bogged down in the detail and the Count is trying, once again to drive a wedge in.

This was always going to be a complex deal and we'll soon find out the result. If, it goes ahead then I think it will be a good deal all round. The Midland guys get something, but certainly not a lottery win, and I really don't think that a BA pilot will be disadvantaged. Even if a Midland chap gets a long or short, haul command before a BA guy I think it's important to remember what they brought with them and to play fair. I've only read some of the BA comments, but it would be wrong to try and hoodwink them on their way in the door and we still need them to vote themselves out of "the bubble", and for that they need a bone fide incentive.

What I've always wanted out of this is to maintain my lifestyle, still have the same if not better career aspirations and not to have to do any more reserve than I have to do at present. I certainly never wanted to better my lot by screwing over someone else.

As for the Baby folks, what can I say? My best wishes for you and your families. It would seem that this deal has been completely unfair for you guys and every one of the powers that be seems to be in a huge rush to avoid any responsibility, when I suspect the truth is that they should all take some of the blame. Good luck for the future.

As for the vote, hopefully when the dust settles even the most ardent detractor will secretly admit to themselves that they are, in fact better off.

Once again everyone, welcome aboard

[bluepilot]

Lets just put this in perspective eh?

BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330), yes those hulls will be disposed of BUT replaced with new order frames (777, 380 etc) the 15 longhaul commands ARE LESS THAN THE BMI PILOTS HAVE ALREADY!(longhaul 7.5 crews per hull) all the BMI CC has done is secure the most senior captains their current positions should they bid! NO BA PILOT IS LOSING OUT!

[Count Niemantznarr]

Nice to hear a comment from a BA captain recently that he wished BALPA was "a bit more like BASSA".

The problem for BA flight crew that under the guidance of BALPA, they are dying a death by a thousand cuts. The creed of feeding the crocodile in the hope it will eat you last, has been exploited by Willie best demonstrated by him cheekily and opportunistically, taking two days leave off of you and shafting future average holiday pay supplements.

Although the many critics here love to pan BASSA, it was actually a brilliant result. Remember the "fight for survival" was caused by an artificially created record loss following a record profit the year before. Willie and Keith Williams were running BA similar to the Greek economy and the pilots fell for it. Like OpenSkies and the future BA Express, there was nothing that BASSA could do if BA wished to start a new cabin crew contract and fleet. That has happened and the damage to the brand is ongoing as the new recruits "bed in". Please excuse that expression in light of the number of "little Nigels and Nigellas", created through steamy liasons with a number of these allegedly rampant nubile lovelies.

Since the treacherous actions of BA pilots towards their cabin crew colleagues, things don't seem to be going too well. In particular the reverses in pay and conditions to satisfy the crocodile, as BALPA acts in an all too malleable fashion.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up. Many Pursers have actually volunteered to work down, so are really not too bothered about career progression. At least the Legacy crew have not emulated the mistakes of the clever pilots, by going over to an hourly rate. The weakness of the Pound has decimated the buying power of the UK currency over the aslt four years, whereas the cabin crew benefit from local inflation, and currencies that have surged in strength like the Australian Dollar and the Brazilian Real.

So chaps you need to worry about your own patch, rather than volunteering to serve drinks and screwing your colleagues.