Virgin Atlantic Hold Pool recruitment
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Four engines, your faith in the upper management to have learnt lessons is reminiscent of BALPA looking into eyes of management days before we announced a profit. They have exceptional track record for not learning any lessons. 9/11 - 2009, J2000 seat and the current UCS shambles. Its becoming public knowledge that SRB and 'The Ridge' had a stand up row on a New York, this was approximately one week before he announced he carefully considered retirement, all is not well. In very challenging industry we are far too capable of shooting ourselves in the foot, repeatedly, with both barrels.
Some people will have very good reasons for joining us but I think they should do it with open eyes, and appreciate the precarious position they will be in. I had the good fortune to join ahead of a recruitment bubble, so have always been protected, knowing that if they come that far up the list the company is doomed. The people joining now will not have that luxury. We also have the uncertainty of the impact of losing BMI as a feeder.
As for city centre hotels, I assume you are not referring to New York.
Also, the Overtime/day off payments come with caveats, whilst they do exist it is not that straight forward. The day off payment, you will pocket a neat £50-60 after tax, for you TCX guys, that is not an hourly rate for working on a day off, thats it! so if you are lucky you'll be able pick up a take away with your money. Overtime requires careful management of your roster for the entire year, as there are only a few ways for getting the cash and a hundred ways to disqualify yourself from the money. I joined with the hope paying for holidays, cars and boats with the cash I'd earn from the scheme, but it has never materialised. If the overtime or DOP is to be had, it is normally indicative of some "omnishambles' in crewing or rostering, which means you'll have been shafted some how.
All of this we now face with no BALPA, they are dead for a generation, "Never before in the field of industrial relations has so much been lost, by so few, for so many". The PPU an unknown quantity until it gets off the ground, but will undoubtedly further divide the workforce.
That said, I'm sure people will still join, many for the very same reasons that I did, and despite what might think I still do not regret it, but if I'd joined on the 747 I probably would.
Some people will have very good reasons for joining us but I think they should do it with open eyes, and appreciate the precarious position they will be in. I had the good fortune to join ahead of a recruitment bubble, so have always been protected, knowing that if they come that far up the list the company is doomed. The people joining now will not have that luxury. We also have the uncertainty of the impact of losing BMI as a feeder.
As for city centre hotels, I assume you are not referring to New York.
Also, the Overtime/day off payments come with caveats, whilst they do exist it is not that straight forward. The day off payment, you will pocket a neat £50-60 after tax, for you TCX guys, that is not an hourly rate for working on a day off, thats it! so if you are lucky you'll be able pick up a take away with your money. Overtime requires careful management of your roster for the entire year, as there are only a few ways for getting the cash and a hundred ways to disqualify yourself from the money. I joined with the hope paying for holidays, cars and boats with the cash I'd earn from the scheme, but it has never materialised. If the overtime or DOP is to be had, it is normally indicative of some "omnishambles' in crewing or rostering, which means you'll have been shafted some how.
All of this we now face with no BALPA, they are dead for a generation, "Never before in the field of industrial relations has so much been lost, by so few, for so many". The PPU an unknown quantity until it gets off the ground, but will undoubtedly further divide the workforce.
That said, I'm sure people will still join, many for the very same reasons that I did, and despite what might think I still do not regret it, but if I'd joined on the 747 I probably would.
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QAR ASR & Tennisten
@Tennisten,
There has never been a pilot base, for VAA, in Manchester to my knowledge.
@QAR ASR,
Your posts are spot on. They should be consumed in great depth by any new joiner, or potential applicant to VAA.
There is a strong argument to include them in Ops Manual "Part A", section 1.01 for the unitiated, or naive.
I spent 3 years in VAA, but left in the enhanced voluntary redundancy round in 2009.
VAA is a strange place. One almost full of hope, but mixed with desperation for an FO.
I'm glad I left. I've got a really good Command now and a ski apartment in France which was 40% paid for entirely by my redundancy from the "omni shambles". And I got to keep and reinvest my VAA pension pot. But.....
I'd never, ever, ever, look to join VAA. I just got lucky.
There has never been a pilot base, for VAA, in Manchester to my knowledge.
@QAR ASR,
Your posts are spot on. They should be consumed in great depth by any new joiner, or potential applicant to VAA.
There is a strong argument to include them in Ops Manual "Part A", section 1.01 for the unitiated, or naive.
I spent 3 years in VAA, but left in the enhanced voluntary redundancy round in 2009.
VAA is a strange place. One almost full of hope, but mixed with desperation for an FO.
I'm glad I left. I've got a really good Command now and a ski apartment in France which was 40% paid for entirely by my redundancy from the "omni shambles". And I got to keep and reinvest my VAA pension pot. But.....
I'd never, ever, ever, look to join VAA. I just got lucky.
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QAR and Narrow runway
Fundamentally I broadly agree with your sentiments. Like most long haul carriers it can be a miserable place to be until you have seniority behind you. Then once you have that seniority and the job protection that it provides, you find the actual job rather boring.
At the risk of being controversial, VAA is a Captains airline. I don't mean this in the old fashioned way ie God complex's with poor CRM but that the job is well paid and you run things the way you like things to be run. Given routine heavy crew operations it is common for one F/O to not get a sector with all the frustrations that can bring. For a lot of our Captains, VAA is their first and only airline, and quite frankly their preciousness and naievity about what life is like at other airlines is embaressing. You wouldn't believe the lengths some went to in order to avoid their 330 course (free rating on a popular type in a fragile airline--no bond) because they might have to pay 200 quid at the Premier inn Crawley during the course because they live in France or wherever and there are no bunks to use on an 8 hour sector to Orlando ! Rant over.
QAR is right to point out that there are issues over BALPA and it's continuing representation but there are 2 sides to this. Our CC are a victim of their own success over the years which has led to unrealistic expectations from some. When I joined we were by far the lowest paid big jet pilots in Europe and sod all pension to speak of. Thanks to Balpa the company pays 15% to the pot each month with me pitching in 7%. Thanks to Balpa we have private health cover for my family as well. 200k if I lose my medical. PHI paying full salary for 2 years becoming 75% for a while then 37.5% (index linked) until i am 65 if I lose my medical, but with full pension contributions based on full salary, and 4 times annual salary life insurance and full pension for my wife in the event. On top of that in Jan next year we get a 3% payrise as the last installment from the last pay deal. With my glass full I struggle to complain but instead I would refer anyone looking to join to my earlier comments. To get the full benefit and satisfaction from VAA you have to look at things from a long term career perspective and not short term gain.
VAA is a good job if you want the following....
1. You can live anywhere you want.
2. You will fly reasonably new and well maintained aircraft.
3. 750 hours
4. Good benefits. (probably not as good as BA but better than most)
5. You get to see parts of the world that most of the population will never see
6. You will fly with friendly and professional crews.
It is bad option if you seek the following...
1. You want rock solid job security
2. To be in your own bed each night.
3. You want a quick command (currently stable at about 12 years)
4. You want to get a lot of hands on flying.
5. No jet lag.
All the best
Fundamentally I broadly agree with your sentiments. Like most long haul carriers it can be a miserable place to be until you have seniority behind you. Then once you have that seniority and the job protection that it provides, you find the actual job rather boring.
At the risk of being controversial, VAA is a Captains airline. I don't mean this in the old fashioned way ie God complex's with poor CRM but that the job is well paid and you run things the way you like things to be run. Given routine heavy crew operations it is common for one F/O to not get a sector with all the frustrations that can bring. For a lot of our Captains, VAA is their first and only airline, and quite frankly their preciousness and naievity about what life is like at other airlines is embaressing. You wouldn't believe the lengths some went to in order to avoid their 330 course (free rating on a popular type in a fragile airline--no bond) because they might have to pay 200 quid at the Premier inn Crawley during the course because they live in France or wherever and there are no bunks to use on an 8 hour sector to Orlando ! Rant over.
QAR is right to point out that there are issues over BALPA and it's continuing representation but there are 2 sides to this. Our CC are a victim of their own success over the years which has led to unrealistic expectations from some. When I joined we were by far the lowest paid big jet pilots in Europe and sod all pension to speak of. Thanks to Balpa the company pays 15% to the pot each month with me pitching in 7%. Thanks to Balpa we have private health cover for my family as well. 200k if I lose my medical. PHI paying full salary for 2 years becoming 75% for a while then 37.5% (index linked) until i am 65 if I lose my medical, but with full pension contributions based on full salary, and 4 times annual salary life insurance and full pension for my wife in the event. On top of that in Jan next year we get a 3% payrise as the last installment from the last pay deal. With my glass full I struggle to complain but instead I would refer anyone looking to join to my earlier comments. To get the full benefit and satisfaction from VAA you have to look at things from a long term career perspective and not short term gain.
VAA is a good job if you want the following....
1. You can live anywhere you want.
2. You will fly reasonably new and well maintained aircraft.
3. 750 hours
4. Good benefits. (probably not as good as BA but better than most)
5. You get to see parts of the world that most of the population will never see
6. You will fly with friendly and professional crews.
It is bad option if you seek the following...
1. You want rock solid job security
2. To be in your own bed each night.
3. You want a quick command (currently stable at about 12 years)
4. You want to get a lot of hands on flying.
5. No jet lag.
All the best
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4 Engines,
The package is, as you say, pretty good.
But, you have to survive the inevitable rounds of redundancies in order to really benefit.
All the perks you mention, I also have in my new employer, with the benefit of every weekend at home and a 2 week on/off roster. But as I said, I got lucky.
Virgin isn't for everyone. New joiners, or aspiring new joiners, need to do their research thoroughly.
As an aside, I had to use the health care for a serious condition in 2008. It isn't quite as good as you may believe.....great if you need a physio. Not so great if it's life threatening.
All the best.
The package is, as you say, pretty good.
But, you have to survive the inevitable rounds of redundancies in order to really benefit.
All the perks you mention, I also have in my new employer, with the benefit of every weekend at home and a 2 week on/off roster. But as I said, I got lucky.
Virgin isn't for everyone. New joiners, or aspiring new joiners, need to do their research thoroughly.
As an aside, I had to use the health care for a serious condition in 2008. It isn't quite as good as you may believe.....great if you need a physio. Not so great if it's life threatening.
All the best.
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I must concur with the above. PHI certainly does NOT pay full salary for 2 years. That what what I was told at my interview day too.
When I needed it I found out that it is actually only 75% for one year and is discretionary. Either it was more spin on the interview day or, like most things these, it has been quietly eroded without us noticing!
That said, with a good few years under the belt, there are still far worse places to be. However, if you are a new joiner, you should definitely come with your eyes wide open, all the risk assessment done, and possibly a plan 'B' should the worst happen (and it has done on several occasions). It really does come down to what satisfies your personal demands from the job versus the security you require from it.
It certainly isn't the glamourous party atmosphere inside that it once was but 750hrs/year is a reasonably good gig if you can survive on the wrong end of the list and don't mind perching in the right seat (and the jumpseat!) for a good while.
When I needed it I found out that it is actually only 75% for one year and is discretionary. Either it was more spin on the interview day or, like most things these, it has been quietly eroded without us noticing!
That said, with a good few years under the belt, there are still far worse places to be. However, if you are a new joiner, you should definitely come with your eyes wide open, all the risk assessment done, and possibly a plan 'B' should the worst happen (and it has done on several occasions). It really does come down to what satisfies your personal demands from the job versus the security you require from it.
It certainly isn't the glamourous party atmosphere inside that it once was but 750hrs/year is a reasonably good gig if you can survive on the wrong end of the list and don't mind perching in the right seat (and the jumpseat!) for a good while.
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Having flown Low Cost, UK Charter and now for Virgin here are my thoughts..
It may disappoint some of you, but I really enjoy it. My quality of life has never been better, I get more days off at home and I've had some great, truly memorable trips. I don't miss the runs of earlies, the roster disruption, the 4 sector days or the 900 hours a year. In the last year, I have flown every trip exactly as per my roster. Not a single disrupted day.
Having been made redundant in my previous life, I know how some of you on here feel. I read the warnings, but I think it's worth the risk. Personally, I'm no more nervous at Virgin, than I was in low cost or charter. Plus, I now have a couple of wide-body ratings.
Yes, it's not perfect. However, a lot of the negative opinion on here comes from those who were made redundant. Well, we've been warned, time to move on. Plus, those who complain the most, have often never flown for another airline. Or, if they have, it was before the low cost boom. Times have changed. For me, Virgin is about as good as it gets.
Of course, we need to protect and improve upon what we have. Same as everywhere. Management will always try it on, so we need to stay united for the battles ahead.
As for the future of Virgin, I'm cautiously optimistic. In the next few years we could have the B789, new routes both domestic and long-haul, expansion and the A380.
Ok, I went too far with the A380..
It may disappoint some of you, but I really enjoy it. My quality of life has never been better, I get more days off at home and I've had some great, truly memorable trips. I don't miss the runs of earlies, the roster disruption, the 4 sector days or the 900 hours a year. In the last year, I have flown every trip exactly as per my roster. Not a single disrupted day.
Having been made redundant in my previous life, I know how some of you on here feel. I read the warnings, but I think it's worth the risk. Personally, I'm no more nervous at Virgin, than I was in low cost or charter. Plus, I now have a couple of wide-body ratings.
Yes, it's not perfect. However, a lot of the negative opinion on here comes from those who were made redundant. Well, we've been warned, time to move on. Plus, those who complain the most, have often never flown for another airline. Or, if they have, it was before the low cost boom. Times have changed. For me, Virgin is about as good as it gets.
Of course, we need to protect and improve upon what we have. Same as everywhere. Management will always try it on, so we need to stay united for the battles ahead.
As for the future of Virgin, I'm cautiously optimistic. In the next few years we could have the B789, new routes both domestic and long-haul, expansion and the A380.
Ok, I went too far with the A380..
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"However, a lot of the negative opinion on here comes from those who were made redundant. Well, we've been warned, time to move on. Plus, those who complain the most, have often never flown for another airline. Or, if they have, it was before the low cost boom."
Of course the warnings come from those previously laid off. Who would you prefer them to come from? The guess worker?
Most redundees have moved on, forced or not, they've moved on. Many to better things.
I think your last statement can only reflect the ex RAF Captains? Other than that, every VAA pilot has worked for an airline before joining.
Many people did of course fly for good airlines before the low cost boom. That doesn't mean their aspirations are less valid than a new entrant from the low cost arena.
I'm glad you are enjoying your time at VAA. I really hope you have a fruitful career there.
Of course the warnings come from those previously laid off. Who would you prefer them to come from? The guess worker?
Most redundees have moved on, forced or not, they've moved on. Many to better things.
I think your last statement can only reflect the ex RAF Captains? Other than that, every VAA pilot has worked for an airline before joining.
Many people did of course fly for good airlines before the low cost boom. That doesn't mean their aspirations are less valid than a new entrant from the low cost arena.
I'm glad you are enjoying your time at VAA. I really hope you have a fruitful career there.
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The fact is that VS have provided good employment for a lot of Pilots and Staff for many many years, and for some a high proportion of their career.
There will be highs and lows for sure, thats the industry we're in. If you've been made redundant you tend to not winge too much as the grim reaper can appear at any time.
The fact is if VS offer someone a job they may not have the luxury of thinking about the long term consequences i.e. baby pilots.
Most VS folk i know are happy and proud, yeah they would want more money, but thats the day we live in, o if only we could recreate the 1980-1990's....
There will be highs and lows for sure, thats the industry we're in. If you've been made redundant you tend to not winge too much as the grim reaper can appear at any time.
The fact is if VS offer someone a job they may not have the luxury of thinking about the long term consequences i.e. baby pilots.
Most VS folk i know are happy and proud, yeah they would want more money, but thats the day we live in, o if only we could recreate the 1980-1990's....
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For a lot of our Captains, VAA is their first and only airline, and quite frankly the
FourEngines, the above is absolutely spot on, that said it not only applies to Captains but also to FO's who are enjoying their first airline. Not wishing to start a whole us and them debate(we know 'Them' are), but some of them are so blissfully out of touch with the realities and requirements of being a 'Commercial Pilot' it is absolutely incredible. Recently I had the pleasure of listening to a protracted rant by one of our colleagues who was incensed that crewing had the temerity to change his/her trip pattern, which rendered it unsuitable for the mini break he/she had planned to take his/her partner away on! He/she had even demanded to speak to the duty pilot, I kid you not!
This does lead on to the fact I believe that the work force(VACC) has frequently in the past become bogged down in niff naff and trivia whilst in pursuit of better T&C's, but as is so often the case in these matters its the empty vessels which make most noise.
But the impact of BALPA's conduct in the last round of negotiations has not yet been felt, and is unlikely to felt for some time. The benefits you quote are of great comfort, as I have spent most of my career(here an elsewhere) under the umbrella of such protection there is no doubt I could be accused of taking the them for granted. But the BALPA of now bears no resemblance to the VACC of old, its akin to associating the glory of England's 1966 World Cup win with todays squad of also rans. The truth of our vulnerable position now is that we have been accepting relative pay cuts since 2008 and unless we see a deflation in the UK economy our pay is only going to reduce further in the future. We must consider the staff travel perks are not contracted therefore can and will be withdrawn/reduced when needed to bolster bonuses.
This is probably the crux of my point, is that what you see is not what you will getting in future. I just wish to give a heads up for the people contemplating joining us, the position we are in now is potentially as good as it will get. With little hope of the 97% reforming, we are left with a disillusioned and largely self serving workforce, so the hope of this being turned around is slim.
Outside of BA there is no other airline I would now consider working for in the UK, but people should think long and hard about what they are sacrificing to move company. The prizes available at Virgin are diminishing and what New Joiners currently possess in their current employment is worth more than they realise. When I joined if I hadn't liked the new job other options existed, but I know that isn't the case anymore. Tie this in with the fact that such a leap of faith will in no way what at all be rewarded by any kind of loyalty from your new employer.
This does lead on to the fact I believe that the work force(VACC) has frequently in the past become bogged down in niff naff and trivia whilst in pursuit of better T&C's, but as is so often the case in these matters its the empty vessels which make most noise.
But the impact of BALPA's conduct in the last round of negotiations has not yet been felt, and is unlikely to felt for some time. The benefits you quote are of great comfort, as I have spent most of my career(here an elsewhere) under the umbrella of such protection there is no doubt I could be accused of taking the them for granted. But the BALPA of now bears no resemblance to the VACC of old, its akin to associating the glory of England's 1966 World Cup win with todays squad of also rans. The truth of our vulnerable position now is that we have been accepting relative pay cuts since 2008 and unless we see a deflation in the UK economy our pay is only going to reduce further in the future. We must consider the staff travel perks are not contracted therefore can and will be withdrawn/reduced when needed to bolster bonuses.
This is probably the crux of my point, is that what you see is not what you will getting in future. I just wish to give a heads up for the people contemplating joining us, the position we are in now is potentially as good as it will get. With little hope of the 97% reforming, we are left with a disillusioned and largely self serving workforce, so the hope of this being turned around is slim.
Outside of BA there is no other airline I would now consider working for in the UK, but people should think long and hard about what they are sacrificing to move company. The prizes available at Virgin are diminishing and what New Joiners currently possess in their current employment is worth more than they realise. When I joined if I hadn't liked the new job other options existed, but I know that isn't the case anymore. Tie this in with the fact that such a leap of faith will in no way what at all be rewarded by any kind of loyalty from your new employer.
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Both QAR ASR and 4engines4longhaul have posted well. I have felt well informed from reading their accounts of VS.
I will add that in every airline, even the locos, there are extremely self serving people who have no real concept of what life is like for the regular line pilot. It may possibly be more noticeable in airlines with long serving employees, high on seniority, knowing no other type of operation; but it is there. Secondly, I think everyone should seriously think about what they are sacrificing in their current job when considering a new role with another operator. Outside BA, I think any move within the UK holds a lot of risk. The state of aviation in Europe is dire.
I will add that in every airline, even the locos, there are extremely self serving people who have no real concept of what life is like for the regular line pilot. It may possibly be more noticeable in airlines with long serving employees, high on seniority, knowing no other type of operation; but it is there. Secondly, I think everyone should seriously think about what they are sacrificing in their current job when considering a new role with another operator. Outside BA, I think any move within the UK holds a lot of risk. The state of aviation in Europe is dire.
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Probably old news...
Probably old news by now, but looks like Virgin is supporting Boeing's development of a transition course from 747s to 787s (with VS 787-900 deliveries at least 2 years from now). Does this suggest that VS 787 pilots will primarily be sourced from the 400 fleet as those airplanes depart? Will VS likely maintain the split Boeing/Airbus fleets with not much mixing of pilots from each?
Here's the news/PR clip:
Virgin Atlantic has revealed the airline is assisting aircraft manufacturer Boeing with the development of a streamlined course for pilots wishing to convert from 747 to 787 flying.
The new course will provide a more efficient training programme, reducing the conversion time from 24 to 16 days. Virgin Atlantic Captains Jim Kloos and Ian Belmore are blazing a trail for the industry, once their trial is complete the course will be available to all European pilots currently flying Boeing 747-400s.
“We were pleased to be able to provide two experienced B747 pilots to Boeing as candidates for this course, which will result in great efficiency savings for airlines across Europe,” explained Virgin Atlantic’s Director of Operations, Safety and Security, Corneel Koster.
“We have a fantastic team of pilots at Virgin Atlantic and these two training captains will be providing invaluable experience and practical advice to Boeing. We are excited about the 787 aircraft joining our fleet and are pleased to be playing such a key part in enabling its smooth roll out across Europe.”
Here's the news/PR clip:
Virgin Atlantic has revealed the airline is assisting aircraft manufacturer Boeing with the development of a streamlined course for pilots wishing to convert from 747 to 787 flying.
The new course will provide a more efficient training programme, reducing the conversion time from 24 to 16 days. Virgin Atlantic Captains Jim Kloos and Ian Belmore are blazing a trail for the industry, once their trial is complete the course will be available to all European pilots currently flying Boeing 747-400s.
“We were pleased to be able to provide two experienced B747 pilots to Boeing as candidates for this course, which will result in great efficiency savings for airlines across Europe,” explained Virgin Atlantic’s Director of Operations, Safety and Security, Corneel Koster.
“We have a fantastic team of pilots at Virgin Atlantic and these two training captains will be providing invaluable experience and practical advice to Boeing. We are excited about the 787 aircraft joining our fleet and are pleased to be playing such a key part in enabling its smooth roll out across Europe.”
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787 courses
Well given the reduced training requirements for Pilots transitioning from 747 to 787 would make most sense. But as the beech fleet 744 have been refurbished with a projected life long beyond the arrival of the 789, it seems very unlikely that this will happen as Airbus pilots will then have trained on the 747, a more likely scenario is as A346 are returned from lease those pilots will transit to the 787.
Seems logical, but logic and crewing do not make comfortable bed fellows.
Seems logical, but logic and crewing do not make comfortable bed fellows.
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I suspect Virgin will be sold within the next 12 months - there's been talk of Delta at the weekend, but I can't see it remaining in its current status quo for much longer. Recessions are an excellent time to buy airlines, especially if you want to make any changes and investment bankers are desperate to get deals over the line.
