NEW BA PILOT SCALE
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Why do you not know the difference between your and you're? Where have I come across as angry? I asked a couple of questions which I'm interested in hearing the response to. Your post is tangential, pointless and you are probably cabin crew - for you to create a profile just to respond to my post in fact you have to be.
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Excuse me while I'm not jealous of you flying an f-ing noisy 747, at night, listening to static on HF and having to spend all your night stops with a load of 50 year old unionists that seem to think they were conscribed to be cabin crew. Never a more miserable bunch than BA cabin crew. Must be a pleasure.
EasyJet is a great company - it offers a nice balance and plenty of opportunity to actually fly.
EasyJet is a great company - it offers a nice balance and plenty of opportunity to actually fly.
I don't blame the BMI guys being uneasy at the prospect of joining an airline that provokes such negative views from those who don't actually work here. Lets see what our ex-BMI colleagues think of it in six months - I really hope they will be pleasantly suprised, once all the current issues have been resolved.
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Chief willy I paid for my pilot training (an fATPL) with an unsecured loan via the CTC scheme. I assure you I have never paid for a type rating - I was lucky. People that have had no sensible choice. For example when we began selection/ training in 2006/2007 the economy was incredible - it was a reasonable thing to follow our dreams via ths method. In 2008 the bottom fell out of the world economy. We were passed the PNR. Once qualified people are in for a penny, in for a pound.
As for why BA is uncompetitive compared to easyJet, had you considered:
- we have economies of scale brought in by having a one type fleet?
- we sell more seats per city pair again bringing in...... economies of scale.
- we have more in the way of diversified affinity partnerships - Hertz generates millions of profit for example.
- our cabin is as good comfort- wise as the cabin of most major European flag carriers.
- we don't have to deal with the expense and delays of heathrow.
- we have better aircraft utilisation - our aircraft operate maybe 19 hours a day, yours maybe 15.
- our crew costs are more predictable and simple and our promotion system is meritocratic. Your pays scale offers no option to pay freeze in the event of red figures.
-your service is crap and expensive whilst ours is not bad and cheap - people will forgive us more easily.
- your company uses some relatively fuel hungry aircraft - your fuel bill, across the board is far higher than ours relatively.
- we use the cabin crew to clean the plane.
- we have local bases and so don't need to night stop.
- we don't carry useless crap on our planes like a library or 14 toilets on a 100 person aircraft.
- our 319s have 156 seats yours have 138? Do the maths.
- finally yours is more expensive because apparently yours is a premium service. Apparently.
I could go on. You assume like a mother funster. To think the reason we can offer cheaper tickets is because of flexicrew is retarded. How do southwest, one of the best payers do it? And we are paid well at the moment. I'm not on flexicrew.
I'll also say it was easyJet that created the opportunities and gave me a chance - I'm extremely grateful for that. Ba weren't offering inexperienced pilots/ cadets jobs.
Ron Swanson - cabin crew - probably that betty chick who PMd me. I'm genuinely not angry, I clearly just don't have a way with the written word.
As for why BA is uncompetitive compared to easyJet, had you considered:
- we have economies of scale brought in by having a one type fleet?
- we sell more seats per city pair again bringing in...... economies of scale.
- we have more in the way of diversified affinity partnerships - Hertz generates millions of profit for example.
- our cabin is as good comfort- wise as the cabin of most major European flag carriers.
- we don't have to deal with the expense and delays of heathrow.
- we have better aircraft utilisation - our aircraft operate maybe 19 hours a day, yours maybe 15.
- our crew costs are more predictable and simple and our promotion system is meritocratic. Your pays scale offers no option to pay freeze in the event of red figures.
-your service is crap and expensive whilst ours is not bad and cheap - people will forgive us more easily.
- your company uses some relatively fuel hungry aircraft - your fuel bill, across the board is far higher than ours relatively.
- we use the cabin crew to clean the plane.
- we have local bases and so don't need to night stop.
- we don't carry useless crap on our planes like a library or 14 toilets on a 100 person aircraft.
- our 319s have 156 seats yours have 138? Do the maths.
- finally yours is more expensive because apparently yours is a premium service. Apparently.
I could go on. You assume like a mother funster. To think the reason we can offer cheaper tickets is because of flexicrew is retarded. How do southwest, one of the best payers do it? And we are paid well at the moment. I'm not on flexicrew.
I'll also say it was easyJet that created the opportunities and gave me a chance - I'm extremely grateful for that. Ba weren't offering inexperienced pilots/ cadets jobs.
Ron Swanson - cabin crew - probably that betty chick who PMd me. I'm genuinely not angry, I clearly just don't have a way with the written word.
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Well I too want Ba to continue to offer good ts and cs. I reiterate from my post above:
Cadets who started training during the recession took a big risk. The outcome is theirs to live. People trained while I was +/- a year really had therug pulled from beneath them. There never were guarantees though and life is full of tests.
All this said, I genuinely hope BA maintain excellent Ts and Cs and continue to recruit - not because I necessarily want to go there but because they create the labour turnover that sways the recruitment supply and demand balance.
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Blimey, what an angry 
black and brown is
every option to change a name and lower himself to insults, benderman etc( like i did yes) ;-)
Who by the way didnt rubbish easy, he rubbished the suggestion that BA skippers made a rush for easy rather than stay at BA, which quite rightly is rubbish, the only BA skippers that went to easy were the ones who just missed the 55 cut off
and rubbish facts
my particular favorites are sitting listening to hf all night, who does that,
14 toilets on a 100 seat aircraft.
hertz making easy profits,
and the total lack of understanding between BA a premium carrier and easy a low cost, with no long haul fleet,
I am not knocking easy they are great at what they do, and I know a lot of guys that fly for them, but you cant cost comparison BA, with 120 odd long haul aircraft and 90 odd shorthaul at lhr alone, with easy,
SO the comment about having a single aircraft fleet is crap to, what do you think our shorthaul airbus fleet is.
black and brown isevery option to change a name and lower himself to insults, benderman etc( like i did yes) ;-)
Who by the way didnt rubbish easy, he rubbished the suggestion that BA skippers made a rush for easy rather than stay at BA, which quite rightly is rubbish, the only BA skippers that went to easy were the ones who just missed the 55 cut off
and rubbish facts
my particular favorites are sitting listening to hf all night, who does that,
14 toilets on a 100 seat aircraft.
hertz making easy profits,
and the total lack of understanding between BA a premium carrier and easy a low cost, with no long haul fleet,
I am not knocking easy they are great at what they do, and I know a lot of guys that fly for them, but you cant cost comparison BA, with 120 odd long haul aircraft and 90 odd shorthaul at lhr alone, with easy,
SO the comment about having a single aircraft fleet is crap to, what do you think our shorthaul airbus fleet is.
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Hand,
The new PP34 is quite clearly a B scale. Some one who starts now will, after 24 years be on a much lower basic wage than some one who started in January. Over the course of 34 years this will result in a difference of hundreds of thousands of pounds. I doubt many who are starting now are bitter about it, they know what they are signing up to. But as most who start with BA come from other airlines/ walks of life and join after age 31 they will never reach the top pay point.
Clearly current BA pilots will never vote for themselves to go onto PP34 (turkeys and Christmas and all that) but there are many ways to save money without actually cutting pay. I'm sure BA are just interested in the bottom line saving rather than how it's achieved. One example from Studi
but this would not affect those on PP24 and above already.
Another option would be to reduce the pay points to say 20. Those already on the highest 4 pay points mark time till rate of inflation catches up with them. This though would initially only hurt those at the top. To make savings off everyone there could be only 10 PP and you only move up every 2 years but at double the present difference. i.e. new PP2 = old PP3, new PP3 = old PP5.
With a bit of creative thinking there would be many ways to make the savings without introducing the B scale.
The problem for the A scalers is that in 10 years or so when the B scalers are in the majority and further savings are required, where do you think the vote for savings will be? It may be to introduce a C scale or to equalise conditions across the board.
regards
The new PP34 is quite clearly a B scale. Some one who starts now will, after 24 years be on a much lower basic wage than some one who started in January. Over the course of 34 years this will result in a difference of hundreds of thousands of pounds. I doubt many who are starting now are bitter about it, they know what they are signing up to. But as most who start with BA come from other airlines/ walks of life and join after age 31 they will never reach the top pay point.
Clearly current BA pilots will never vote for themselves to go onto PP34 (turkeys and Christmas and all that) but there are many ways to save money without actually cutting pay. I'm sure BA are just interested in the bottom line saving rather than how it's achieved. One example from Studi
implement for example pp34 over all current ranks, while maintaining actual pay level until you are due for the next step increase according to the new table
Another option would be to reduce the pay points to say 20. Those already on the highest 4 pay points mark time till rate of inflation catches up with them. This though would initially only hurt those at the top. To make savings off everyone there could be only 10 PP and you only move up every 2 years but at double the present difference. i.e. new PP2 = old PP3, new PP3 = old PP5.
With a bit of creative thinking there would be many ways to make the savings without introducing the B scale.
The problem for the A scalers is that in 10 years or so when the B scalers are in the majority and further savings are required, where do you think the vote for savings will be? It may be to introduce a C scale or to equalise conditions across the board.
regards
PPRuNe Person
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listening to static on HF and having to spend all your night stops with a load of 50 year old unionists
The 747 fleet is hugely popular as it offers such a variety of lifestyles so that even the most junior in either seat is content with his/her lot.
I don't see the relevance of comparing Easy's business model with BA's, clearly each suits the other and wouldn't work the other way round?
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I don't understand BlackandBrown's incessant ramblings on BA related threads? It is good to hear that he is happy at Easy, however is he? If you are so happy then why devote so much time and energy into telling people at BA that this is the case?
You come up with some valid facts, however much of these are tagged on to snide comments and blatant put downs. Did you apply to become a DEP and now feel begrudged because you were turned away? So what, you are happy at Easy!?
Some personalities spend a lot of time trying to achieve something, fail for whatever reason and then try to justify to themselves (and others) that what they tried to achieve was never what they wanted in the first place. I don't get that, but I accept that it occurs and I deal with it fairly regularly in my current role.
I made it into the DEP hold pool at BA, however I can't give you the reason why - i performed adequately i suppose, but i made mistakes as well. If my plans are scuttled, which they might actually be, then I promise you that I won't be on here telling those in BA this, that and everything else. You can get on with your lives and I will get on with mine (after I recover from a bout of disappointment).
And yes, PP34 is a kick in the, but an inevitability. Im not looking to join BA for the money (I'm in it for that nice hat that you all wear so dashingly to be honest 
)
You come up with some valid facts, however much of these are tagged on to snide comments and blatant put downs. Did you apply to become a DEP and now feel begrudged because you were turned away? So what, you are happy at Easy!?
Some personalities spend a lot of time trying to achieve something, fail for whatever reason and then try to justify to themselves (and others) that what they tried to achieve was never what they wanted in the first place. I don't get that, but I accept that it occurs and I deal with it fairly regularly in my current role.
I made it into the DEP hold pool at BA, however I can't give you the reason why - i performed adequately i suppose, but i made mistakes as well. If my plans are scuttled, which they might actually be, then I promise you that I won't be on here telling those in BA this, that and everything else. You can get on with your lives and I will get on with mine (after I recover from a bout of disappointment).
And yes, PP34 is a kick in the
, but an inevitability. Im not looking to join BA for the money (I'm in it for that nice hat that you all wear so dashingly to be honest )
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bin - BA doesn't have an A-scale and a B scale. With NRA 50 Crystallised APS, NRA 55 APS, NRA 55 NAPS1, NRA 65 NAPS 2, DEP, CEP, BARP and FFP scales BA has an A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H and soon an I scale. The point of this alphabet soup is that pretty much everyone joins BA knowing what they expect to get. Some have been very lucky and have found the goalposts have moved significantly in their favour. Others have been less fortunate and found things have deteriorated for them. This good fortune/bad fortune split largely parallels the intergenerational wealth transfer we are seeing in British society as a whole at the moment! To get to my point, we are largely seeing a dilution of terms and conditions across the industry. You simply cannot keep averaging down across incumbent workforces to protect future joiners because the incumbents have made plans based on reasonable expectations.
There are plenty of things you can preserve for new joiners, such as free type ratings, career path flexibility, part time working, access to new fleets etc etc, but you can only work within the parameters of the employer. If they want X, they aren't necessarily going to accept Y, even if it produces the savings they want. The employer makes long term strategic decisions about the direction of the business, and "Swap Y for X" does not necessarily match their long term vision, even if it does match their short term savings targets. The cleanest option is a clean break from the old system and clear, unambiguous infomation on the new system. Nobody is compelled to join under the new system, and if they choose to do so they can't say they were surprised. Despite what studi would have us believe, few in the industry are revolutionaries. I've no doubt the focus of negotiations will subtly shift in favour of the mass of individuals on the new scale over time, as it democratically should, but I've yet to see any full scale revolution in any major airline, simply because once people are in they know that it's not fair to take from people things they reasonably expected, and there's always someone willing to do your job cheaper than you. People know that once you start snatching from the guy at the top, there's nothing to stop the management snatching the same from you.
Same difference. Pay freeze now until you reach an increment under the new pay scale. That's a real terms pay cut however you dress it up.
The current solution drops the total pay costs quicker than yours. Thats why BA wanted it. Of course you won't know this as your only information is that which you've garnered from pprune.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Too many times to take you seriously, despite your self-flagellating overtime freeze.
There are plenty of things you can preserve for new joiners, such as free type ratings, career path flexibility, part time working, access to new fleets etc etc, but you can only work within the parameters of the employer. If they want X, they aren't necessarily going to accept Y, even if it produces the savings they want. The employer makes long term strategic decisions about the direction of the business, and "Swap Y for X" does not necessarily match their long term vision, even if it does match their short term savings targets. The cleanest option is a clean break from the old system and clear, unambiguous infomation on the new system. Nobody is compelled to join under the new system, and if they choose to do so they can't say they were surprised. Despite what studi would have us believe, few in the industry are revolutionaries. I've no doubt the focus of negotiations will subtly shift in favour of the mass of individuals on the new scale over time, as it democratically should, but I've yet to see any full scale revolution in any major airline, simply because once people are in they know that it's not fair to take from people things they reasonably expected, and there's always someone willing to do your job cheaper than you. People know that once you start snatching from the guy at the top, there's nothing to stop the management snatching the same from you.
Originally Posted by studi
Not exactly, read more thorough! I said to maintain current pay until you are due for next increase according to pp34.
I was not aware that the now implemented solution solves this problem. Too much jet lag when deciding for your vote?
And yes, some people vote for paycuts, part-time to keep guys on board etc. You will never be one of them, we got that.
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Callsign Kilo
You will understand B&B ramblings when you realise he is a failed BA entrant,
this is why he displays all the underhand and snidey comments,
When he grows up he will see that not getting into BA was probably a good thing, for him...
I dont know why I am saying this as I am fed up with B&B ramblings, but as the rest of us know, not getting into BA is not a slight on anyone, I know many better pilots than I who failed to make the cut, it is down to luck, personality on the day, or for a few guys, (not me for sure) being the right kind of steely eyed sky god.
One day B&B will see that and enjoy life without having to seek out retribution on BA threads talking about stuff he knows nothing about and making a general fool of himself.....
enuf said on the matter.
You will understand B&B ramblings when you realise he is a failed BA entrant,
this is why he displays all the underhand and snidey comments,
When he grows up he will see that not getting into BA was probably a good thing, for him...
I dont know why I am saying this as I am fed up with B&B ramblings, but as the rest of us know, not getting into BA is not a slight on anyone, I know many better pilots than I who failed to make the cut, it is down to luck, personality on the day, or for a few guys, (not me for sure) being the right kind of steely eyed sky god.
One day B&B will see that and enjoy life without having to seek out retribution on BA threads talking about stuff he knows nothing about and making a general fool of himself.....
enuf said on the matter.
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Studi,
Maybe I missed it, but what are all you guys at lufty and German wings doing to ensure your parent company to do the honourable thing re the BMI pension? Surely you would agree that these ex-colleagues of yours who have had their future earnings slashed without warning deserve your action, after all the money that's not paid into their fund will be defacto being paid to you?
Or do you only give lectures about solidarity?
Maybe I missed it, but what are all you guys at lufty and German wings doing to ensure your parent company to do the honourable thing re the BMI pension? Surely you would agree that these ex-colleagues of yours who have had their future earnings slashed without warning deserve your action, after all the money that's not paid into their fund will be defacto being paid to you?
Or do you only give lectures about solidarity?
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Studi,
I hope your amazing management never cast german wings aside, because If they do I will take interest in how they honour your pension.
But you are showing your true colors now,
BMI Pension, BUT ZEY ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW, WHO CARES...
very compassionate studi.
I guess thats the cold hearted german in you!!!
I hope your amazing management never cast german wings aside, because If they do I will take interest in how they honour your pension.
But you are showing your true colors now,
BMI Pension, BUT ZEY ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW, WHO CARES...
very compassionate studi.
I guess thats the cold hearted german in you!!!
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Studi,
So I'm clear then
We voted to take some t&c changes to allow an integration that both provided expansion for us and survival for a large part of BMI. The emotive issues of how that integration will occur have been extensively discussed and whilst we disagree as to how the 'spoils' should be shared no BMI pilot will be financially worse off as a result, and that's a legal and legislative bottom line. That's what BA's pilots are responsible for, period. And for this you lampoon us.
Your company dumps BMI without regard for the future its various divisions, then dumps its pension fund without any regard for its moral obligation to the accept the failure of its venture by ensuring sufficient cash was made available to protect the fund. And this matters not to you?
Mmm, your alright Joachim!
Edited to apologise for not recognising your Herculean offer of a .5% cut to your inflationary pay rise, if it's proved a 'right' (does that mean legally required?) thing to do. You'll know what I gave up to facilitate the integration then, or what the average BMI pilot would have earned extra over a career on pp34 scale v midlands?
So I'm clear then
We voted to take some t&c changes to allow an integration that both provided expansion for us and survival for a large part of BMI. The emotive issues of how that integration will occur have been extensively discussed and whilst we disagree as to how the 'spoils' should be shared no BMI pilot will be financially worse off as a result, and that's a legal and legislative bottom line. That's what BA's pilots are responsible for, period. And for this you lampoon us.
Your company dumps BMI without regard for the future its various divisions, then dumps its pension fund without any regard for its moral obligation to the accept the failure of its venture by ensuring sufficient cash was made available to protect the fund. And this matters not to you?
Mmm, your alright Joachim!
Edited to apologise for not recognising your Herculean offer of a .5% cut to your inflationary pay rise, if it's proved a 'right' (does that mean legally required?) thing to do. You'll know what I gave up to facilitate the integration then, or what the average BMI pilot would have earned extra over a career on pp34 scale v midlands?
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Now chaps, don't be surprised by Studis response, it's his standard modus operandi. When confronted by uncomfortable facts claim its all 'smoke and mirrors', then fall back on a couple of cliches about 'solidarity and unity'. I must admit the bank cliche seems a new one though. There was the rest of the world thinking that an excess of consumer and government debt was the problem, but no, it's the robber bankers of course :-)
Think of Studi as being like one of those 911 conspiracy theorists, or a member of the Socialist Workers Party. It's not the truth that matters, it's his truth.
Think of Studi as being like one of those 911 conspiracy theorists, or a member of the Socialist Workers Party. It's not the truth that matters, it's his truth.
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Originally Posted by red 7
BMI Pension, BUT ZEY ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW, WHO CARES...
Originally Posted by studi
If they would join my contract in my jurisdiction on my seniority list then I would expect my CC to rectify it, yes. However, we as a group do not have any influence on this.
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4468
You say tomato.........
Look, I would give my right arm to have got in last year when I applied, it is very unfortunate I had a bad day in the sim. We all have them, mine was just very bad timing (just glad I didn't drag my sim partner down with me!). I now hope my current company manages to find a CEO and some direction.
PP34 is what it is. I can understand your reasoning as to why the company has had to do it, it still doesn't change what it is.
Anyway, I was just pointing out which way we are all going, I have no axe to grind, as I do understand that BA is a benchmark.
I wish all of us the very best.
Look, I would give my right arm to have got in last year when I applied, it is very unfortunate I had a bad day in the sim. We all have them, mine was just very bad timing (just glad I didn't drag my sim partner down with me!). I now hope my current company manages to find a CEO and some direction.
PP34 is what it is. I can understand your reasoning as to why the company has had to do it, it still doesn't change what it is.
Anyway, I was just pointing out which way we are all going, I have no axe to grind, as I do understand that BA is a benchmark.
I wish all of us the very best.
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Hand, so management can do whatever they like?
If it's one of their red lines that they won't budge on then you can't negotiate it.
If you want to fight it you'd better make sure the law is on your side (it isn't), that the company doesn't have an alternative legal scenario to hit you back with (they do), and that your members will strongly support you (in the middle of a recession they won't).
If you can't negotiate it, or fight it with any prospect of winning, then you are left with no option but to accept it.
Yes, THAT is absolutely different in any other country that recognises unions and collective bargaining.
If the UK is special in this regard I would find it pretty stupid to pay 1% of my salary to a union. Why anyways to negotiate if they can do whatever they like?
I really don't get you, Hand.