NEW BA PILOT SCALE
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NEW BA PILOT SCALE
hi guys,
I am sure everyone is aware of the new pilot scale for new british airways pilots. What are people's opinions on this and could somebody kindly tell me how the new pay scale works(and compare it with the old one). From what i have heard the new scale is not fair on new joiners.
regards
I am sure everyone is aware of the new pilot scale for new british airways pilots. What are people's opinions on this and could somebody kindly tell me how the new pay scale works(and compare it with the old one). From what i have heard the new scale is not fair on new joiners.
regards
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They will pay you as little as they possibly can just like any other airline will do these days.
They all seem to be trying to walk the fine line between the FO being insolvant and being able to eat and getting blood out of a stone.
Only when you become useful and liable to walk will the pay get better.
They all seem to be trying to walk the fine line between the FO being insolvant and being able to eat and getting blood out of a stone.
Only when you become useful and liable to walk will the pay get better.
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Do you mean FPP program or the 34 point pay scale. The FPP scheme is about the best deal going in the UK at the moment. No airline in the UK offers free, no strings attached sponsorship. If you consider that unfair then don't join.
If you are referring to the PP34 scale, the change is that you start in the same salary as before but the annual increments are reduced so it now takes 34 years to reach the top pay point rather than 24. If you consider it unfair then don't join.
If you are referring to the PP34 scale, the change is that you start in the same salary as before but the annual increments are reduced so it now takes 34 years to reach the top pay point rather than 24. If you consider it unfair then don't join.
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BA could offer a lower deal than Ryanair and people would still be queuing around the block.
Due to its legacy T&Cs and seniority system, BA has virtually no turnover of staff other than pension/medical etc related. This is ultimately expensive, albeit there is still is a recognition of the importance of experience within BA.
The change in payscales in starting to address this, as the average cost of an EZY A320 pilot (esp. flexi) is far lower than a BA A320, and ultimately this can't continue.
Within BA, its Flight Ops department has always had a strong voice but the cost base is coming under increasing focus as it becomes increasingly hard to justify why the cost base is so different.
Due to its legacy T&Cs and seniority system, BA has virtually no turnover of staff other than pension/medical etc related. This is ultimately expensive, albeit there is still is a recognition of the importance of experience within BA.
The change in payscales in starting to address this, as the average cost of an EZY A320 pilot (esp. flexi) is far lower than a BA A320, and ultimately this can't continue.
Within BA, its Flight Ops department has always had a strong voice but the cost base is coming under increasing focus as it becomes increasingly hard to justify why the cost base is so different.
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34 years is a long, long time to wait to get to decent money..!
Obviously 21 year olds who have never moved out of home...........!!!!!!!
In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?
50% - 60% - 70%
What's the point flogging yourself for that..? BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.
You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. Like all the ex-BA captains at EZY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
people would still be queuing around the block
In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?
50% - 60% - 70%
What's the point flogging yourself for that..? BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.
You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. Like all the ex-BA captains at EZY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Craggenmore; 21st Apr 2012 at 13:16.
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34 years is a long, long time to wait to get to decent money..!
In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?
50% - 60% - 70%
What's the point flogging yourself for that..? BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.
You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. At least the weathers better for the most part..!
In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?
50% - 60% - 70%
What's the point flogging yourself for that..? BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.
You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. At least the weathers better for the most part..!
One of the delights of reading this forum is enjoying the absolute bollox that some write.
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cptdivz, I'm not sure your question has really been answered so far; I will try to do so.
BA define starting and finishing salaries for cadets, first officers and captains. Obviously they are higher for captains than FOs, and higher for FOs than cadets. They are also slightly higher for 'medium' and long haul than for short haul.
A new pilot starts on the bottom of the appropriate scale, and moves up one step every year.
If you get promoted from cadet to FO (in year five I believe) or from FO to captain you simply move across onto the appropriate scale from that point.
In the past, it took 24 years to reach the top of the scale where you remained until you retired (known as 24pp).
The recent changes mean new joiners will instead take 34 years to reach the top of the salary scale (34pp) - but once they do get there they will receive the same amount.
Confusingly, the pension scheme for new joiners has not changed and pension contributions from both employee and employer will still be based on the old 24 year scale.
The entire salary scale structure increases each year to reflect inflation.
In addition to the salary and pension, there are flying allowances worth something like £9000 per year which are only taxed at 20%.
It's inappropriate to give any specific figures here, but I understand that the pay scales are available from the BALPA website if you are a member. Personally I think the salaries are pretty decent and would probably compare favourably to any other European airline.
Cadets on the FPP scheme pay in instalments for their frozen ATPL training, at the usual package rate, to their chosen flight school. They are able to borrow the money through a BA-backed loan scheme if necessary.
Type rating IS included in the package though I am not certain whether it is the flight school or BA that are providing it.
The cadet is also responsible for test fees and most general living costs throughout training although basic accommodation and some food is included.
Once qualified and gainfully employed, they start on the cadet pay scale. In addition to salary and allowances they will receive a further tax-free 'repayment' equal to 1/7 of the training package cost per year for the first seven years.
If you add it all together, you can see that in fact the FPP cadets will be taking home pretty much the same money as the direct entry pilots albeit in a more tax efficient manner.
Clearly, most cadets will need the repayments to repay the money they borrowed in the first place. Thus they are in a very similar position to a self-sponsored direct entry pilot but with two major advantages - a free type rating and a job awaiting them at the end of their training.
So is the 34pp scale fair? I don't really see how any particular package can be considered 'unfair' to staff who have not yet joined the company. No one already working at BA has lost out and it's really up to you to decide if you accept the terms offered or not if you wish to join.
It is rather inelegant though. There will be a significant discrepancy between pilots joining before and after the cut-off date, which will get worse with time. After 24 years, some pilots with very slightly less seniority than their colleagues will be paid only 70% as much (basic salary - the pension and allowances will be the same) and won't catch up for another 10 years.
But will either the 24pp or 34pp scales will still be with us in this form in twenty years time? I suspect not - there will be plenty more tinkering and changes before the situation above actually occurs.
I hope that is all clear and accurate.
BA define starting and finishing salaries for cadets, first officers and captains. Obviously they are higher for captains than FOs, and higher for FOs than cadets. They are also slightly higher for 'medium' and long haul than for short haul.
A new pilot starts on the bottom of the appropriate scale, and moves up one step every year.
If you get promoted from cadet to FO (in year five I believe) or from FO to captain you simply move across onto the appropriate scale from that point.
In the past, it took 24 years to reach the top of the scale where you remained until you retired (known as 24pp).
The recent changes mean new joiners will instead take 34 years to reach the top of the salary scale (34pp) - but once they do get there they will receive the same amount.
Confusingly, the pension scheme for new joiners has not changed and pension contributions from both employee and employer will still be based on the old 24 year scale.
The entire salary scale structure increases each year to reflect inflation.
In addition to the salary and pension, there are flying allowances worth something like £9000 per year which are only taxed at 20%.
It's inappropriate to give any specific figures here, but I understand that the pay scales are available from the BALPA website if you are a member. Personally I think the salaries are pretty decent and would probably compare favourably to any other European airline.
Cadets on the FPP scheme pay in instalments for their frozen ATPL training, at the usual package rate, to their chosen flight school. They are able to borrow the money through a BA-backed loan scheme if necessary.
Type rating IS included in the package though I am not certain whether it is the flight school or BA that are providing it.
The cadet is also responsible for test fees and most general living costs throughout training although basic accommodation and some food is included.
Once qualified and gainfully employed, they start on the cadet pay scale. In addition to salary and allowances they will receive a further tax-free 'repayment' equal to 1/7 of the training package cost per year for the first seven years.
If you add it all together, you can see that in fact the FPP cadets will be taking home pretty much the same money as the direct entry pilots albeit in a more tax efficient manner.
Clearly, most cadets will need the repayments to repay the money they borrowed in the first place. Thus they are in a very similar position to a self-sponsored direct entry pilot but with two major advantages - a free type rating and a job awaiting them at the end of their training.
So is the 34pp scale fair? I don't really see how any particular package can be considered 'unfair' to staff who have not yet joined the company. No one already working at BA has lost out and it's really up to you to decide if you accept the terms offered or not if you wish to join.
It is rather inelegant though. There will be a significant discrepancy between pilots joining before and after the cut-off date, which will get worse with time. After 24 years, some pilots with very slightly less seniority than their colleagues will be paid only 70% as much (basic salary - the pension and allowances will be the same) and won't catch up for another 10 years.
But will either the 24pp or 34pp scales will still be with us in this form in twenty years time? I suspect not - there will be plenty more tinkering and changes before the situation above actually occurs.
I hope that is all clear and accurate.
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34 years is a long, long time to wait to get to decent money..!
Thats puts you in the top 5% of all uk earners. If you joined in your 20's / early 30's as a lot of people do then that would put you close to, or in the top 1% of people in that age group.
PP34 is in 6 figures and in the top 1% of all uk income and would still be achieved by retirement for anyone who joined before 30. Most jobs / careers these days don't have a pay scale, none have a guarnateed payscale up to the 99th percentile of uk income.
If you don't think any of that is "decent" money then either you are a banker, or living in some bizare alternate reality.
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If you want 'decent' money, don't get into aviation.
If you want to work your
off, join a LCC.
The buzz word in BA appears to be 'lifestyle' - for now. Im ridding it out in the hold pool, trying to keep positive. If I join BA, it certainly won't be on the basis of raking it in hand over fist.
If you want to work your
off, join a LCC.The buzz word in BA appears to be 'lifestyle' - for now. Im ridding it out in the hold pool, trying to keep positive. If I join BA, it certainly won't be on the basis of raking it in hand over fist.
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Just to add some perspective here. All this chat about the pay point system is boring. I have just completed year 1 in BA and let me tell you it is a world away from previous companies.
Lifestyle has been mentioned on here over and over but it really is the key. I spent 7 years flying the charter side of this job before BA and here is my view on life: I bid for a roster of work which means I can choose on a monthly basis whether time off or money is more important for that month; I have more annual leave than ever before with the associated staff travel; I have a great route network (not the best in BA) but I like it; a stable roster which has not changed, once published, in a year; transport and hotels are always booked and waiting; an aspirational bid every year should I wish to change fleet/lifestyle; an average of between 12-15 days off/month and that is with a first year total of 650 hours. These are just some!
All I can say is the pay is good and the benefits are great. There are a lot of people getting angry and vocal about all of the negatives but a lot of us have experienced the other side and it is MUCH better.
Lifestyle has been mentioned on here over and over but it really is the key. I spent 7 years flying the charter side of this job before BA and here is my view on life: I bid for a roster of work which means I can choose on a monthly basis whether time off or money is more important for that month; I have more annual leave than ever before with the associated staff travel; I have a great route network (not the best in BA) but I like it; a stable roster which has not changed, once published, in a year; transport and hotels are always booked and waiting; an aspirational bid every year should I wish to change fleet/lifestyle; an average of between 12-15 days off/month and that is with a first year total of 650 hours. These are just some!
All I can say is the pay is good and the benefits are great. There are a lot of people getting angry and vocal about all of the negatives but a lot of us have experienced the other side and it is MUCH better.
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An example of how it is to work for BA
Some years ago, I was down route in Perth, (W.Aussie) when my son was knocked off his bike in Italy, taken to hospital and still "out for the count" after 6 hours. BA called me, offered to position me home (which would have involved positioning another skipper to Perth (no easy task), and to fly my wife and a BA company doctor to Venice to make sure of the best treatment for my son.
That is what it is like to work for BA, when the "chips hit the fan", they are there for you.
That is what it is like to work for BA, when the "chips hit the fan", they are there for you.
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Quote:
The pay after 33 years is rubbish
If you can get the same elsewhere after just 6-7 years (income in V income out) then yes it is - totally..!!!!!!
Have you just joined BA Bangerman?
(Sorry Bangerman - I'm just bored in the CPH First lounge waiting for one of your 320's to pick me up.)
The pay after 33 years is rubbish
If you can get the same elsewhere after just 6-7 years (income in V income out) then yes it is - totally..!!!!!!
Have you just joined BA Bangerman?
(Sorry Bangerman - I'm just bored in the CPH First lounge waiting for one of your 320's to pick me up.)
The tax I pay is not really much to do with my employer, but where I CHOOSE to live. If all I was interested in grabbing as much cash as I could I may go and work in the Gulf for the benevolent operators there, or I could just live in a country with low taxes.
I CHOOSE not to be a tax dodger (avoider), I CHOOSE to stay with my present employer and I CHOOSE my work which, when allocated, ends up being the work I actually do because I have immense roster stability.
So, did you "not get in?"
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wot they said
Heres an external perspective.
Someone said to my wife at the school gate recently and when they found out what I did they said "Oh it must be hard with him being away all the time.".
My wifes response now I'm with BA, "he's never at bloody work, he's always on leave, or got a days off and when he is at work he sits around in the sun by a pool "
A glib response I know, but that's pretty much sums up my first year with BA. I've never been left downroute because of crewing / ops cockups, i've never got somewhere to find no transport and no hotels, I've never had a roster change (apart from swaps that I sorted out myself with a colleague) and I get paid **** loads more than I used to.
Heres an external perspective.
Someone said to my wife at the school gate recently and when they found out what I did they said "Oh it must be hard with him being away all the time.".
My wifes response now I'm with BA, "he's never at bloody work, he's always on leave, or got a days off and when he is at work he sits around in the sun by a pool "
A glib response I know, but that's pretty much sums up my first year with BA. I've never been left downroute because of crewing / ops cockups, i've never got somewhere to find no transport and no hotels, I've never had a roster change (apart from swaps that I sorted out myself with a colleague) and I get paid **** loads more than I used to.
I:ve spoken to a BA 777 f/o driver at the school gates and he gets 3/4 days away but with time diff gets no more rest than us. no mention of swimming pools either.
FWIW downroute hassle (HOTAC and transport) has been almost nil, and when the "fit has hit the shan"
the company have been very good at faciliatating getting me home and/or granting me time off, no questions asked.
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Good point 73addict. Too many people on here always looking at the negatives of BA that need to understand life outside of BA doesn't always share all of the good T's & C's that they take for granted.
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I:ve spoken to a BA 777 f/o driver at the school gates and he gets 3/4 days away but with time diff gets no more rest than us. no mention of swimming pools either.
I get 13-14 days off per month. Time zones makes no diference to that, a day off is a day off. I get guaranteed 2 days (3 nights) off after every long haul trip - no more home for 12 hours and then slogging off somewhere else half asleep. In reality I get alot more time off than that. my last 3 day trip reported at 9pm and cleared at 11am. They don't count as days off but in reality theres almost 1 1/2 whole days at home in those 3 days of work. I can plan that too, as a trip rostered at 9pm WILL start at 9pm, I won't get a duty change the day before moving me to a 6 day trip starting at 6am (which happened frequently in my previous life). I get more leave than i know what to do with, so much so that I've picked up an overtime trip in my duty free week next month as I really don't want antother week off!
I cannot see a problem with the BA salary. as stated i'm more than happy with a starting salary thats in the 95th percentile of ALL earners in the UK, and with a payscale (wether its 25 or 35) that takes it well in to 6 figures, and a union that has a good history of getting cost of living rises every year.
But even if you do have a problem with the salary - its about lifestyle, and that is far more important to me, and most other people too.
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I think the plain truth is that a lot of those who've tried to get in to BA and for whatever reason haven't, be it not getting through selection, the disbanding of the hold pool or, even, dare I say it being offered a job then turning it down, are often trying to kid themselves that BA is not such a good gig anymore...well it may not be as good as it was but if you want to live and work in your home country its still the best one in town, in every way except time to command..and if thats all you want...go to Easy or Ryan
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Bengerman - I'm really pleased for you that you earn sh!tloads of money. You know the trouble with you guys? You all sound so cringingly smug.
Quote from Bengerman - "One of the delights of reading this forum is enjoying the absolute bollox that some write." - Quite, thank you for your own contributions.
Quote from Bengerman - "One of the delights of reading this forum is enjoying the absolute bollox that some write." - Quite, thank you for your own contributions.
Last edited by MrBenip; 23rd Apr 2012 at 07:08.