BMI mainline pilots made redundant?

[MaxRange120]

Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action

A financial lifeline will be thrown this week to about 350 companies struggling to fund deluxe final salary pension schemes against the backdrop of a faltering economy. Without the regulator's decision to relax its approach to the funding of pension deficits – estimated to total about £255billion – it is feared that many scheme sponsors would be in danger of failing to meet their pension promises.

Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action | Mail Online

BA deal can't stop BMI pension scheme being shifted into protection fund | Mail Online

Why is this is not enough to make the trustees go back to the drawing board with DLH and the Pension Regulator for a review now the regulator is 'being more pragmatic' ?

Meanwhile DLH are still trading,still flying into the U.K, and seem to be doing rather well.

Boeing delivers monster 747-8 jet to Lufthansa... with a wingspan of over 225 feet | Mail Online

[upandoffmyside]

Van G:

"Just playing devils advocate...but then by what right are bmi mainline pilots getting direct entry into BA? They haven't passed any selection for BA either and are jumping ahead of people waiting in the hold pool who have passed the selection. "

Quite simply, because the BA pilot community were given the opportunity by BA Management to decide whether they wanted bmi integrated in to BA or kept separate as a new lower cost version of BA at LHR.

Down to their contract scope clause giving them the right to fly BA aircraft at LHR.

And the BA pilot community voted to have bmi integrated rather than face the present BA probably stagnate while the new low cost BA born out of bmi attracted the future growth opportunities.

Anyone who has been in midland for some time and has hung on (and that's most who are left at present) hasn't exactly been lying on a bed of roses.

I think you'll also find that the hundreds of pilots from Northeast, Cambrian, BEA/BOAC, BCAL, Dan Air, Citiflyer and a few other decent UK operations that I've probably missed from the mists of time that have all been absorbed in to BA, have also never been subject to a BA selection procedure.

Are they any less as professional pilots ?

For non bmi group people - there's very little connection (except at the very top of the business pyramid) between the three elements of the group, and Regional operates quite independently out of the Aberdeen HQ, having been borne out of Business Air. Yes, there has been some sensitivity at LHR at Regional coming in and taking over a fair chunk of bmi mainline flying for the last few years.

If mainline pitched up at ABZ and started taking over Regional routes there would be similar concerns at the loss of promotions and opportunities.

But if you speak to your group colleagues you'll find a lot of common empathy and understanding about all of our futures. The common bond is the way in which we were all treated under the pre-DLH ownership. I very much hope that Regional can fall back in to the hands of parts of the Business Air management team and once again thrive under a dynamic and focussed team north of the border.

[prelude01]

I know of several BMI pilots who have failed BA selection on more than one occasion. I wonder how the recruitment team feel about welcoming these guys on board? Does it now make a mockery of the whole selection process ?

[acbus1]

I know of several BMI pilots who have failed BA selection on more than one occasion...Does it now make a mockery of the whole selection process ?

I know of many bmi pilots who have passed BA selection on many occasions. The all too common trait was an inability to operate an airliner with efficiency and (IMHO) safety. Fortunately, they were all F/Os and were never let loose by bmi without the support of a Captain. That definitely did make a mockery of the whole (BA) selection process.

As for the bmi pension scheme, if past performance is anything to go by, the vast majority of the bmi pilot workforce will capitulate without so much as a whimper, let alone anything even remotely resembling a fight. As usual, not surprisingly, BALPA will eventually walk away from the problem due to lack of decent support (amongst other well known reasons, of course).

Come on! Prove me wrong! Stick up for yourselves, just for once.

[Chief Brody]

Prelude01

I don't think it makes a mockery of the situation. It was just an awesome opportunity for BA at Heathrow where new slots are very few and far between.

At the end of the day BA were never gonna say....geez, I wish we could have those 42 slots but lets not bid if we have to take the pilots too.

There is a saying in the States....the fleas come with the dog. I'm not saying that BMI pilots are fleas - what i am saying is it's not a perfect set up but it's workable.

Why's it not perfect? Well everyone will have a story to tell by the time the dust settles. For my two peneth worth....I really enjoy the people I fly with on the Airbus at Heathrow and would dislike witnessing a number of individuals pitch up and attempt to ruin the vibe because they felt slighted.

That said, I'm sure that 95%+ of our new colleagues will be great and the beauty of Bidline is that you can ditch the trips with the arseholes once you've flown with them once and got the measure of them. Indeed I do it already with one or two current BA wallies.

Welcome on board.

Somebodys said it already but allow me to reiterate, first beers on me.

CB

[fade to grey]

It's just ridiculous harping on about BA selection for bmi pilots.They have proven their worth and obviously ability to operate an airliner. This is where selection processes breakdown because they apply a broadbrush - OK make it ridiculously hard for little johnny out of Oxford, but you should n't apply the same criteria to experienced pilots.

I did both Britannia and first choice selection in the same 2 weeks, I passed one and apparantly failed the other. So i was good enough to fly one IT 757, but not the other airline's.I mean really, WTF ?

I wish good luck to the good ones at bmi. I hope your welcome to BA is warmer than the astraeus folks received in some quarters ...

[Juan Tugoh]

I did both Britannia and first choice selection in the same 2 weeks, I passed one and apparantly failed the other. So i was good enough to fly one IT 757, but not the other airline's.I mean really, WTF ?

As the selection procedure is for the company and not for the aircraft type etc., then it is not a great surprise that you can fail for one company and pass for another. That's before you even go near the idea that you flew poorly in one sim test and aced the next one. Companies are looking for pilots but also types of people and I think it is fair to say these differ widely. This is not necessarily to do with safety - the LPC sorts this stuff out, but more to do with whether you will fit in with the company ethos and culture.

It amazes me that there are professional pilots out there that don't understand this, to paraphrase: WTF?

[veetwo]

I think (hope) it's pretty much a given that experienced pilots can fly the aeroplane. The selection process is more about weeding out difficult individuals with whom one would not wish to share a flight deck. In my years of flying I've not come across many people who really struggle with the aircraft. Come across plenty of knobs though - just ask any easyjet gatwick FO about the "3 B's".

Again I should be at pains to point out that no company is without these individuals and I'm not for one minute suggesting BMI has more than its fair share. I do hope however that whatever the final solution to seniority et al (of which lets face it we have no control), we can all live happily under one roof without some days out becoming a real drag. Preferably with the baby and regional guys included.

[KERDUNKER]

To continue..... I know of many BA pilots that have also failed selection

[overstress]

Former BMI pilots joining BA will have to do groundschool, sim training, LPC and final command check/line check.

[fade to grey]

Yes, juan. I get that different companies are looking for different attributes , however can you not see the similarity in what first choice and Thomson do. It's ancient history, but I'd be working for Thomson anyway now, and in fact have a tui pension through FC. Furthermore I've flown for pretty much all the uk airlines on an ACMI basis anyway...

No, I don't believe the criteria is much different in this case. It merely comes down to how far the HR dept is trying to stake a claim for it's very existence by exerting it's authority over a role that could be undertaken by management pilots.

[mesh]

The fact is through circumstance Bmi guys have another door into BA and good on them. Some will have passed the selection and some will not have but thats life. I think if people are upset as they are holding then find another company to go too. I'm in limbo at the moment due to this takeover and it is a pain but the doors will open again and I will be eagerly waiting. Good luck to all of you that are starting with BA and I hope all the other issues are sorted for you. Hope to see you down route when hopefully I join BA.

[spider_man]

It's just ridiculous harping on about BA selection for bmi pilots.They have proven their worth and obviously ability to operate an airliner. This is where selection processes breakdown because they apply a broadbrush - OK make it ridiculously hard for little johnny out of Oxford, but you shouldn't apply the same criteria to experienced pilots

If a BA Cityflyer E190 or BA Openskies B757/767 pilot wishes to fly for mainline, they have to go through the full selection process, having already been through an (almost identical) BA selection process. They are already employees of the BA Group. The fact that they are known quantities to BA who have full access to training files, etc. makes little difference. They want to re-confirm you can read, subtract, fly a computer joystick cross bar and "tell me about a time" all over again.

If there are Pilot redundancies within the BA Group at a subsidiary, they still have to go through the BA selection process again to keep a job, along with all of the external applicants. As a result, a fully qualified experienced type rated Boeing 767 Pilot could be out the door (at expense to BA) and put on the dole, whilst on the very same day a cadet pilot or low houred turboprop or military guy is offered a contract. This is BA Corporate policy and yes it happens. You would have thought groundschool, sim training, LPC and line check would be sufficient for internal employees, just as BMI mainline pilots are receiving.

I guess the same has happened in the past with BMI and its subsidiaries, but I dont recall BMI mainline recruiting whilst laying off employed pilots elsewhere in the group?

[Doug E Style]

Allow me to clarify something: bmi is not full of pilots who've failed the BA selection process. bmi pilots are, in the main, people who like flying for a smallish, friendly outfit where you can get to know a significant proportion of your pilot and cabin crew colleagues. Those pilots hell-bent on flying big aircraft around the world will have stayed for a while then headed off to Virgin, BA or the desert.

[Full Left Rudder]

Good luck to everyone involved.

[Atropos1]

" As a result, a fully qualified experienced type rated Boeing 767 Pilot could be out the door (at expense to BA) and put on the dole, whilst on the very same day a cadet pilot or low houred turboprop or military guy is offered a contract. This is BA Corporate policy and yes it happens."

Really?! When did this last happen? When BA started recruitment again they were looking for type rated pilots initially, would hardly fit in with your assertion that they'd lay off type rated pilots only to recruit non-type rated ones!

When were BA last recruiting and laying off crews at the same time?

I think there's a bit too much 'expert' comment on this forum, and we all know what the definition of an expert is.......

[Shaka Zulu]

Correct CF. But without adequate representation on the continent for OS there isn't a lot BALPA could do about it to mitigate those lay offs.

[Juan Tugoh]

OS are a French company as I understand it so not sure what BALPA involvement there should have been, if any.

Given the BALPA history with OS I don't think there was much appetite to try to help either.

[Atropos1]

Despite what you might think are the rights and wrongs of it IAG views all of the airlines in the group as seperate, just as BA did before it. If you view the various entities as connected you are making a mistake. BA were not laying off crews, Openskies were. Although you might wish that the various airlines were linked, I suppose thats partly what the Openskies dispute was about in 2008, that boat has left the harbour and it won't be coming back soon. There are many comments about what BALPA should do about it, we are in a new IR environment, look at the recent changes in Spanish employment law enabling changes to T's and C's without consultation. The employers are ahead of the unions on this one I hope BALPA can continue to pick its way through all this to enable a better future for all of us in the future. I havn't decided whether to hold my breath yet!

[Shaka Zulu]

I wasn't inferring that BALPA would have been able to exert any pressure on a different outcome. However, having no representation certainly doesn't help (it being in the EU or not), the company can do whatever it likes. Hence laying off people in OS.

For the record, this has never happened in BA or it's former guises. Primarily due to innovative solutions and everyone pulling together to provide job security/stability. Something we can be very proud of.

The OS sentiment was one created by the company unfortunately. Us 'contaminating' the set-up didn't make for comfortable reading... (but that's a whole different subject, one that's done to death)

I was merely replying to Atropos/CF/Spider-man posts.