BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, that is far from true.
Actually I believe the IRSC report was sat on by the BMIcc as they knew that the information would inflame the BMI pilots, who would have felt completely let down by this group, due to the inaccuracies.
If you read (if you have access to it?) the reply from the BMIcc chairman and actually look at what his concerns are, you would see that they are all genuine and serious issues that were not considered or based on incorrect details.
Having read the document and applying it to what I know, I can see that it is misinformed hence my point.
I am trying to remain unbiased but some people seem to take what they are told as gospel, without carrying out their own research. It makes it rather difficult to hold an intelligent conversation. Seriously, I'd be the first to stand up and fall in line with it's directive if I believed that it was both unbiased and was decided upon based on the correct details. The fact that it did not have the correct facts means that either it was biased or that the author had not researched his subject matter to any great detail, which some could argue is equally biased.
Actually I believe the IRSC report was sat on by the BMIcc as they knew that the information would inflame the BMI pilots, who would have felt completely let down by this group, due to the inaccuracies.
If you read (if you have access to it?) the reply from the BMIcc chairman and actually look at what his concerns are, you would see that they are all genuine and serious issues that were not considered or based on incorrect details.
Having read the document and applying it to what I know, I can see that it is misinformed hence my point.
I am trying to remain unbiased but some people seem to take what they are told as gospel, without carrying out their own research. It makes it rather difficult to hold an intelligent conversation. Seriously, I'd be the first to stand up and fall in line with it's directive if I believed that it was both unbiased and was decided upon based on the correct details. The fact that it did not have the correct facts means that either it was biased or that the author had not researched his subject matter to any great detail, which some could argue is equally biased.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW Dom Jolly,
I'm sorry but that's censorship by any measure.
The pilots of both groups have a right to see the findings of a report by senior Balpa officers and pilots with no connection to either BMI or BA. Just because the BMICC didn't agree with the findings is a poor excuse to withhold it from their members.
If the report was going to 'inflame' BMI members then it was because their expectations were unreasonable and mis-managed by a bullish CC in the first place.
Actually I believe the IRSC report was sat on by the BMIcc as they knew that the information would inflame the BMI pilots
The pilots of both groups have a right to see the findings of a report by senior Balpa officers and pilots with no connection to either BMI or BA. Just because the BMICC didn't agree with the findings is a poor excuse to withhold it from their members.
If the report was going to 'inflame' BMI members then it was because their expectations were unreasonable and mis-managed by a bullish CC in the first place.
They're not "giving us the slots." We (IAG) are buying them. The 34 point payscale was always going to happen, it was just a question of when. The 24 point payscale had been in BA's sight for quite some time.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Near LONDON
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi
you are becoming tiresome now, I thinkt that is your aim
Ba are buying the use of the slots. bmi are not selling them, LH your parent company are, the parent company that could not turn BMI around.
Fact, end of I believe.
re inflationary pay rises, that has nothing to do with payscales,
the payscales exist regardless, and both or neither will increase if there is a negotiated inflationary rise.
we all took the jobs knowing the payscales, we all assumed we would get an inflationary rise, if there were inflation that year....
lastly, why would anyone say yes to restructuring of payscales to suit longer working years, and then take a 10/20% immediate pay cut, I don't believe for a minute anyone would.
If all you can do is shout, " i am all right jack" at everyone and everything then please move on, you have stated you have no desire to work here, and apparently its nirvana at GW.
As has been commented the pp24/34 decision was made long before the bmi takeover, it is just they are the first ones in.
We could bang on about changes to conditions due employment law all day, like the change to working to 50 and then to 55 and the increases in pensions with pension crystalization, some guys did amazingly well out of that, yes they were allright, but it is right time right place and we have to move with the times, we cant look back and go and cherry pick the best bits from the past.
Now I await the next reason I am allright, and failing my future unborn collegues..
you are becoming tiresome now, I thinkt that is your aim
Ba are buying the use of the slots. bmi are not selling them, LH your parent company are, the parent company that could not turn BMI around.
Fact, end of I believe.
re inflationary pay rises, that has nothing to do with payscales,
the payscales exist regardless, and both or neither will increase if there is a negotiated inflationary rise.
we all took the jobs knowing the payscales, we all assumed we would get an inflationary rise, if there were inflation that year....
lastly, why would anyone say yes to restructuring of payscales to suit longer working years, and then take a 10/20% immediate pay cut, I don't believe for a minute anyone would.
If all you can do is shout, " i am all right jack" at everyone and everything then please move on, you have stated you have no desire to work here, and apparently its nirvana at GW.
As has been commented the pp24/34 decision was made long before the bmi takeover, it is just they are the first ones in.
We could bang on about changes to conditions due employment law all day, like the change to working to 50 and then to 55 and the increases in pensions with pension crystalization, some guys did amazingly well out of that, yes they were allright, but it is right time right place and we have to move with the times, we cant look back and go and cherry pick the best bits from the past.
Now I await the next reason I am allright, and failing my future unborn collegues..
Join Date: May 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi,
Your replies are becoming increasingly incomprehensible and to be honest are just creating a lot of noise. As in the PP34 dbate you show a complete inability to grasp the facts.
Is there any chance you can end this rather odd obsession with BA and let the BA and BMI pilots discuss their future.
Why you are so interested is beyond me.
Your replies are becoming increasingly incomprehensible and to be honest are just creating a lot of noise. As in the PP34 dbate you show a complete inability to grasp the facts.
Is there any chance you can end this rather odd obsession with BA and let the BA and BMI pilots discuss their future.
Why you are so interested is beyond me.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi, nice try but I'm afraid you are trying to apply long term German Union socialist principles to short term, fat cat, British mentality. When the response is "our management didn't ask for a united work force so we didn't give them one" I think you might have to admit defeat. By the way, it is obvious to me why you and all other pilots should be interested.
Come back in a decade and you'll be able to say "I told you so" maybe with a certain sense of what we call " schadenfreude". Do you have a word for that in German?
Come back in a decade and you'll be able to say "I told you so" maybe with a certain sense of what we call " schadenfreude". Do you have a word for that in German?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LHR
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you read (if you have access to it?) the reply from the BMIcc chairman and actually look at what his concerns are, you would see that they are all genuine and serious issues that were not considered or based on incorrect details.
Like everyone else here, I am not privy to all the information the IRSC are but I certainly found no inaccuracies or cause to doubt their findings.
The BMICC reply states that "speculation and/or unverified information" was used to create the report but they make no attempt to qualify these comments whatsoever.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Near LONDON
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi
happy for debate when it is remotely sensible, but when you advocate taking a pay cut and other fanciful ideas it is not reality
It flys in the face of your recent LH strike when you all walked out do to sharing the work with other members of your group who were alledgedly on lower pay,
why did you not take the pay cut to unify as you suggested for us.
BA pilots whilst having subtly different contracts pensions, and now pay scales are very unified and generally stand up for each other, I think most at BMI will be happy to secure a long and succesful employment in BA and to be rid of the black cloud that has long been over thier heads,
But I am sure there will be the few that are not....
happy for debate when it is remotely sensible, but when you advocate taking a pay cut and other fanciful ideas it is not reality
It flys in the face of your recent LH strike when you all walked out do to sharing the work with other members of your group who were alledgedly on lower pay,
why did you not take the pay cut to unify as you suggested for us.
BA pilots whilst having subtly different contracts pensions, and now pay scales are very unified and generally stand up for each other, I think most at BMI will be happy to secure a long and succesful employment in BA and to be rid of the black cloud that has long been over thier heads,
But I am sure there will be the few that are not....
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Near LONDON
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you say agree to disagree, but you say you never mentioned a paycut but then you wrote...
Quote:
... the alternative you suggest would of meant all 3400 ba pilots taking a paycut for several years to embrace this change, the company did not ask for this, so where is the sense in offering it for future alleged unity?
Yes, that is exactly what I would advocate. I am astonished how astonished you are about my stance.
round and round we go
Quote:
... the alternative you suggest would of meant all 3400 ba pilots taking a paycut for several years to embrace this change, the company did not ask for this, so where is the sense in offering it for future alleged unity?
Yes, that is exactly what I would advocate. I am astonished how astonished you are about my stance.
round and round we go
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks here! It doesn't matter what the bmiCC think. It doesn't matter what the BACC think reference seniority.
It does matter what BA thinks.
They think if bmi pilots join the msl on bmi doj then they will be entitled to the respective paypoint. That means quite a few pilots will get significant rises in basic pay.
BA are on record for all to see that they will not permit this.
Unless of course BA pilots accept a reduction in Ts and Cs to cover the costs.
It does matter what BA thinks.
They think if bmi pilots join the msl on bmi doj then they will be entitled to the respective paypoint. That means quite a few pilots will get significant rises in basic pay.
BA are on record for all to see that they will not permit this.
Unless of course BA pilots accept a reduction in Ts and Cs to cover the costs.
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As studi and max appreciate, this is not just about BA and bmi.
It would be short-sighted in my opinion for BA pilots to ignore the ramifications of how they conduct themselves during this integration/merger/takeover on the wider fraternity. They are no doubt a formidable force, but still a minority in terms of the UK pilot workforce.
And to accuse other contributors of ignorance when they have been at the sharp end of protecting payscales that are far more generous than BA's, seems to me, odd.
One wonders what result a BALPA referendum on "The Method of Merging Seniority Lists" would yield? It might serve to neutralise at least some of the vested interest by involving the "silent majority" who, whilst they do not have an immediate interest in the debate, are watching carefully to see what happens.
It would be short-sighted in my opinion for BA pilots to ignore the ramifications of how they conduct themselves during this integration/merger/takeover on the wider fraternity. They are no doubt a formidable force, but still a minority in terms of the UK pilot workforce.
And to accuse other contributors of ignorance when they have been at the sharp end of protecting payscales that are far more generous than BA's, seems to me, odd.
One wonders what result a BALPA referendum on "The Method of Merging Seniority Lists" would yield? It might serve to neutralise at least some of the vested interest by involving the "silent majority" who, whilst they do not have an immediate interest in the debate, are watching carefully to see what happens.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Near LONDON
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SR71
to whom do you refer when you say it is not about BA/BMI
The thread IS, BA/BMI
The only people to lose or gain in this is BA/BMI, and whilst it is nice to consider the global view, the only people affected in this will be BA/BMI pilots for the life of their careers,
I would gamble on less than 20 pilots leaving BA by choice unless for illhealth/retirement in the nxt 5/10 years, so it very much is an inside view people are taking.
to whom do you refer when you say it is not about BA/BMI
The thread IS, BA/BMI
The only people to lose or gain in this is BA/BMI, and whilst it is nice to consider the global view, the only people affected in this will be BA/BMI pilots for the life of their careers,
I would gamble on less than 20 pilots leaving BA by choice unless for illhealth/retirement in the nxt 5/10 years, so it very much is an inside view people are taking.
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
short-sighted in my opinion for BA pilots to ignore the ramifications of how they conduct themselves during this integration/merger/takeover on the wider fraternity
In terms of a referendum, as UK law applies differently depending on the nature of takeovers, buyouts, mergers etc, then a BALPA referendum on seniority lists would serve no purpose.
